The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Hello samuel23,

That is something I never really thought of, is the thousand year reign of Christ the kingdom of God? Paul did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

When Paul said, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he was speaking in regards to heaven and the dead in Christ resurrecting and the living being changed and caught up and then being taken to the Father's house. They will all have to be changed into those immoral and glorified bodies, free of the sinful nature, to inherit the kingdom of God.

Those that are mentioned in Rev 20 are the believers who refused to take the mark of the Beast, they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Since everyone had to have the mark of the Beast then who is alive to continue to populate the earth during the thousand years? Just my opinion here, all those who took the mark are doomed, however it may be that children 10 and under were not given the mark and some of them could have survived to repopulate the earth.

Those in Rev.20:4-6 whom John sees as beheaded, then come to life i.e. resurrect and will rule with him during that thousand years here on this present earth. These are the great tribulation saints mentioned in Rev.7:9-17 who will have died for the testimony of Christ and the word of God. While it is true that anyone that does not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark must be killed, that doesn't mean that everyone is killed. Obviously there will be those who make it through the entire wrath of God and the beasts kingdom alive until Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Otherwise, there would be no Gentiles to enter into the millennial period. And from just the following scripture we do know that there will be Gentile survivors to go into the millennial kingdom:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

So, as you can see above, when Christ returns to the earth, those great tribulation saints, who will be from many nations, will not train for war anymore. No individual who worships the beast, his image and receives his mark, will be allowed to enter the millennial period, for they will all be killed by that double-edged sword as described in Rev.19:15, 21.

 

[VCO]

That is something I never really thought of, is the thousand year reign of Christ the kingdom of God? Paul did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Those that are mentioned in Rev 20 are the believers who refused to take the mark of the Beast, they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Since everyone had to have the mark of the Beast then who is alive to continue to populate the earth during the thousand years? Just my opinion here, all those who took the mark are doomed, however it may be that children 10 and under were not given the mark and some of them could have survived to repopulate the earth.

NO, GOD Sealed 144,000 Jews in their Mortal bodies, to repopulate ISRAEL. They are the same group of Jews that flew thru the newly formed VALLEY, when his feet touch the Mount of Olives, splitting the Mount, to form that escape root, at the time when all of Israel's ENEMIES are closing in on Jerusalem:

Zechariah 14:1-13 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[That is the primary reason that I absolutely believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.]
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other.



Here is the same prophecy in Revelation:



Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGSAND LORD OF LORDS.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Most Theologians that I know, agree that "the sword coming out of His mouth", represents HIS DETERMINATION TO FULFILL EVERY PROPHECY IN HIS WORD. That should be very scary when you look at Zech. 14:12 above:


Numbers 14:35 (HCSB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] I, Yahweh, have spoken. I swear that I will do this to the entire evil community that has conspired against Me. They will come to an end in the wilderness, and there they will die.”


Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.



Now I want to point out what it specifically says in Zechariah about WHO THIS PLAGUE WILL FALL ON.

Zech. 14:12 " And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: "

That seems to leave room for some peoples outside of Israel to survive that GREAT TRIBLATION PLAGUE, where their flesh and eyes rot very rapidly while they are alive. IF THEY TRULY ARE NOT SUPPORTING THE WORLD-WIDE ATTACK, TRYING TO STOP THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Since HE can see the heart of everyone, to judge their motives, that is purely HIS CALL. Except for the 144,000 that flee thru the Valley formed by His splitting the Mount of Olives, I do not see any other survivors in Israel.

 

[Ahwatukee]

are you guys saying that new heaven and new earth in isaiah mean the 1000 year kingdom and in revelation 21 it means new jerusalem?????????? the eternity state????????? so there are two new heavens and new earth?

Morning Muzungu256,

Here is the order:

* You are here

* Church is gathered and are taken to the Father's house (1 Thes.4:13-17, John 14:1-3)

* Seven years of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (Rev.6 - 18)

* Christ returns to the earth to end the age (Matt.24:30-31, Rev.19:11-21)

* Thousand year reign of Christ (millennial kingdom) - (Dan.2:35, Rev.20:6)

* The end of the millennial kingdom and the great white throne judgement (Rev.20:11-15)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21-22)

* Eternity .....................................................................>

 

[Issachar92]

The preterist's "book of mormon" is the "book of josephus". They walk around with the bible in one hand and josephus' writings on the other. I had to throw that jab in there.
Carry on.

 

[Muzungu256]

Morning Muzungu256,

Here is the order:

* You are here

* Church is gathered and are taken to the Father's house (1 Thes.4:13-17, John 14:1-3)

* Seven years of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (Rev.6 - 18)

* Christ returns to the earth to end the age (Matt.24:30-31, Rev.19:11-21)

* Thousand year reign of Christ (millennial kingdom) - (Dan.2:35, Rev.20:6)

* The end of the millennial kingdom and the great white throne judgement (Rev.20:11-15)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21-22)

* Eternity .....................................................................>

hi i like your order mr Ahwatukee!!!!!!!!!!!!! but are you saying 1 thessalonians 4:16 is different from matthew 24:30-31????? different gatherings?????? can you prove it............. i would love to be teleported out of here

 

[serpentdove]

[...Matthew 24:30-31]

See:

The Revelation 12 Sign Informed Christians

 

[VCO]

NO, GOD Sealed 144,000 Jews in their Mortal bodies, to repopulate ISRAEL. They are the same group of Jews that flew thru the newly formed VALLEY, when his feet touch the Mount of Olives, splitting the Mount, to form that escape root, at the time when all of Israel's ENEMIES are closing in on Jerusalem:
. . .

OOPS, I meant withdrew thru

 

[PlainWord]

Good one! It indeed is the twilight zone theology. The problem with the so called allegorical interpretation method is that nothing means what it says, therefore everything is open to interpretation and 10 people can come up with 10 different ideas.
While the bible said no prophecy is of any private interpretation so I think the "It is written." interpretation is to be favored and its the most clear and straightforward.

You end up with a guru system in amillennialism where you have to ask someone else what does this mean what does that mean because nothing means what it says so you cannot understand it yourself.

You mean like adding 2,000 year gaps where none is taught and ignoring the Great Tribulation (destruction) of Jerusalem in 70 AD and adding 2,000 years to that and extending it to a world-wide Great Tribulation and future punishment of Israel? You mean that when Christ said that some standing there in front of Him would not die until they saw Him return and allegorizing that to mean their descendants hundreds of generations later? You mean when Paul (and Jesus) taught that Christ was the chief cornerstone of a new spiritual temple (the one the builders rejected) that instead He meant He would change His mind and disregard His blood sacrifice and go back to the old Rabbinical sacrifices in a third temple (made with hands)? When the writer of Hebrews told us that Christ appeared once at the end of the ages to put away sin by His sacrifice that He was he really meant some future end of the ages? Do you mean the 6 times in Revelation where Christ said He was coming quickly that He really meant, "after 2,000+ years?" Or how about in John 5 where Christ said that the hour was coming, AND NOW IS, that the dead will hear His voice and "come forth those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" So, He really mean that hour to last thousands of years too?

Okay, I see. We're the ones using allegorical interpretation whiles yours is pure as the driven snow.

 

[J7]

See:

The Revelation 12 Sign Informed Christians

That is very interesting.Spectacular. I'd never heard of Daniel Valdes before.

He's also wrong on a few things, but he's the first person to really take revelation to the next level for me.

 

[Ahwatukee]

hi i like your order mr Ahwatukee!!!!!!!!!!!!! but are you saying 1 thessalonians 4:16 is different from matthew 24:30-31????? different gatherings?????? can you prove it............. i would love to be teleported out of here

Hello Munzungu256,

Matt.24:30-31 is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. When He sends out His angels, they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who make it through that entire seven years alive, in their mortal bodies.

Angels do not gather the church at the time when the dead in Christ are resurrected and the living are changed and caught up. They rise from the grave and meet the Lord in the air. There is no mention of angels gathering the church at the time of t he resurrection.

Furthermore, if angels were gathering the church in Matt.24:30-31, then it would mean that the church would have had to have had to go through the entire wrath of God, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. But this cannot be because, those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. Therefore, the church cannot be in view as those being gathered by the angels. Those who will be gathered will be the wheat found in the parable of Matt.13:24-30, 36-43, which again will be those great tribulation saints. These will be those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during millennial period.

Regarding the scriptures that claim that believers in Christ will not go through the time of God's wrath, see the following scriptures - Romans 5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9.

Also, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you will notice, there is an army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. This army wearing fine linen are those who will have been previously resurrected, the called, chosen and faithful followers, the bride/church who are seen receiving there fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:6-8. These are the same ones riding on the white horses following Christ out of heaven.

Now all that being said, if the church/bride is shown to already be in heaven and receiving her fine line and then following the Lord out of heaven, how then can they be those whom the angels are gathering in Matt.24:30-31?

The reference to the angels gathering the elect from the "four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is a phrase referring to them gathering them from the entire earth. It not referring to people being gathered in the resurrection. The teaching that Matt.24:30 is representing angels gathering the elect as referring to the rapture, is an erroneous teaching. For Matt.24:30 is not referring to the resurrection of the church.

I hope that this information is helpful

 

[Denadii]

I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS

My problem with eschatology is this. I can find no scripture for a mid trib rapture and there are none for a post trib rapture. There are many for a pretrib rapture though. For example; The antichrist is in play right at the start of the tribulation period. Yet he cannot come into play until the bride is caught up. In order for the antichrist to bring about the "Abomination of the Desolation" Where he takes over the temple in Jerusalem and sets himself up to be god. He has to allow the building of the temple three and a half years earlier. That puts the desolation mid trib. There is no rapture mentioned for that time.
I can understand where people claim its post trib...They are simply confusing the rapture with the second coming, which are two separate events. So pretrib is the only possible time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You mean that when Christ said that some standing there in front of Him would not die until they saw Him return and allegorizing that to mean their descendants hundreds of generations later?

As I have already told you and proven to you PW, in this scripture, Jesus was not talking about his return to end the age. Below is Luke's version of this scripture:

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."


So, those who were standing there who would not taste of death, were Peter, James and John. Then the scripture says, "about eight days after he said this" which means that what follows is related to what was previously said.

Those who would not taste of death = Peter, James and John

The kingdom of God = Seeing Jesus in His glorified state

Mark's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Matthew's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

Conclusion: It was Peter, James and John who did not die before they saw the Son of Man/Jesus coming in His kingdom, which was referring to Peter, James and John seeing the Lord in His glorified state and has nothing to do with Jesus returning to end the age.

 

[Denadii]

I suppose I lean more towards the prewrath rapture which also may be mid trib i'm entirely sure but I also may be wrong and perhaps we will be taken before all this happens. I have to say though i very much doubt the post trib rapture is true.
There is a difference between the tribulation and God's wrath and the bowls of judgement are not meant for his children as the scriptures say
1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However he never promised us we would not face tribulation in fact Jesus himself said John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world

However it happens and whatever view point others have on the happenings and timing of the rapture even if it contrasts my own it is not for me to judge or to look down upon them for it. We may have vastly different understanding and may have beliefs that completely contradict each other but in Christ we are one. You will find that many will argue and attack each other and mock and name call simply because of their difference in understanding of the rapture but as for me love has taught me that it is not for me to judge anyone for their understanding of the subject sadly this is a lesson many have yet to learn.

So 2nice in your studies of the rapture you will find that what you learn and may see as the truth will contradict that of others and in time your view point may change as well and you will also see the power that this subject alone has over people making them attack each other and use scripture as a weapon simply because their understanding of the subject differs. But you must not be like this because such people are blind and lack the understanding that only love can give, had such people seen through loves eyes they would be at peace in debating the subject and their understanding would vastly increase instead of being limited with their fire to attack and mock others.

So in essence as you study the rapture remember always to have the love of God in your heart for only then will you be given the eyes to truly see the truth hidden within the truth. many see the truth and argue and attack each other but there is a truth hidden within the truth that will only be seen and understood with the heart and eyes of love.

This is interesting and well written Blain.....But.....You've taken a single verse and built a doctrine on it. Look.
[h=1][SIZE=-1]1 Thessalonians 5:5-11 (CJB)[/SIZE][/h] [SUP]5 [/SUP]for you are all people who belong to the light, who belong to the day. We don’t belong to the night or to darkness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]so let’s not be asleep, like the rest are; on the contrary, let us stay alert and sober. [SUP]7 [/SUP]People who sleep, sleep at night; and people who get drunk, get drunk at night. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]9 [/SUP]For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, [SUP]10 [/SUP]who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, encourage each other, and build each other up — just as you are doing.

Ok Seven verses....What is Paul talking about? He's talking about our general behavior...Yes, it would include the time of tribulation but in general it talks about how we should behave. That is the thrust of his teaching here.

One should NEVER base a doctrine, or a belief on a single verse!

 

[Denadii]

When I saw Russia move her military into Syria I started looking back into end time prophecy. I have studied pre and post tribulation rapture, but have not spent much time with the mid tribulation rapture. Probably by the time I tap the reply button to this post, you will have been attacked for your mid-trib belief. Read how a Christian should respond to those with differing theology in 2Tim 2:24-25 kjv ";be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;" this would allow the Holy Spirit to do His job, something the attackers know nothing about.

I would like to hear why you believe in mid-trib. When the attacks start, I'll send you a private message so that we can continue to discuss scripture without having to dodge 40mm grenades. lol.

If it is pre-trib: I'm ready to go.
If it is mid-trib: I will see certain things unfold in prophecy to know it was not pre-trib and I will repent and be prepared.
If it is post-trib: I will not see it because I will not take the mark, so I will either starve to death or have my head chopped off for not denying Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I will run the streets declaring Jesus so that my head will be removed and I will not have to see all of the tribulation. I doubt the post trib scenario, because His word says 1Thess 5:9 kjv For God hath not appointed us to wrath. With that said I'll close with this question:

When reading God's Word, do you read what you believe or do you believe what you read?

MDB Your wisdom in showing! What you wrote about the rapture is very wise indeed, which, if I may, I'll paraphrase you. |

"If its pretrib, I'll be ready, then I'll stay ready so if its mid trib, I'll still be ready, then if I'm wrong on both counts I'll stay ready for the post trib rapture." Is that accurate?

 

[Muzungu256]

Ahwatukee i like your answer.................... i will pray about this the lamb wedding in heaven is before the coming hmmmmmmmmm.,...........

 

[Issachar92]

 

[serpentdove]

[Daniel Valdes]

We're keeping an eye on it (Dan 7:25, 12:11, Re 12:6, 14). We've got that Re 12 sign coming up.

See:

Interval prior to 70th week Missler

 

[Bladerunner]

Most of Revelation indeed dealt with the end of the Jewish nation. The God of the Jews divinely gave the words to a Jewish disciple telling him what was going to happen in their generation to the Jewish people. A warning to 7 churches that had no relevance to them (if events were to be thousands of years later) is no warning at all.

Six times in Revelation Jesus states that He is coming quickly. Are thousands of years considered "quickly?" The evidence is overwhelming that Christ returned in the Clouds ~ 70 AD to execute judgment wrath (vengeance) upon those wicked just as we are told in Luke 21 "[FONT=&]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.[/FONT]"

Keep in mind, that the process of His glorification was not completed until Christ ascended back to heaven following His resurrection. In other words, He appeared to His disciples as flesh and blood where they could touch Him and examine the wounds of the Cross. But after He returned to heaven and was seen by Paul on the road to Damascus He was revealed as a bright light. In Rev 1, John describes Christ as "[FONT=&]and His countenance [/FONT]was like the sun shining in its strength."

My contention therefore is that when Christ returned ~ 70 AD, He was seen as a bright light. Remember when Christ died, darkness fell over the earth for 3 hours. "N[FONT=&]ow from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land." [/FONT][FONT=&]From 3 PM to 6 PM, during normal broad day-light!! Why???? Because the presence (parousia) of Christ left. Josephus records that during the Feast of Passover, a bright light surrounded the temple and lit up the night sky so that it appeared to be day time. This lasted 1/2 hour and everyone saw it. Can you explain this?

Christ said He was coming back and some standing there would not taste death. He told the Sanhedrin, [/FONT][FONT=&]"[/FONT][FONT=&]I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."[/FONT]

with the exception of Chapters 1-3, Israel is all revelation is all about.

 

[Denadii]

with the exception of Chapters 1-3, Israel is all revelation is all about.

and we are grafted into that tree. That makes it about US too

 

[valiant]

with the exception of Chapters 1-3, Israel is all revelation is all about.

LOL now I know you're talking rubbish