The Rapture

[VCO]

When Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" he was speaking about the man's spirit/soul. We know this because his body was buried in the earth. He will be resurrected later.



When a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Their bodies are decaying in the earth. When the resurrection takes place, Jesus will bring with him all of those spirits/souls who have died in him and their bodies will resurrect and they will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Then immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.

I am growing weary of talking to brick walls, aren't you?

Here is how I try to open the eyes of those who refuse to See or Hear the Truth.


Luke 23:42-43 (HCSB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”


2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up {the same Greek word, "Harpazô", is where we get our word Rapture from, because of the Latin Translation of that word is: “Rapturo”} into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.


The Bible Discribes THREE HEAVENS:


FIRST HEAVEN: = ATMOSPHERE

Genesis 1:26 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

2 Samuel 21:10 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it on a rock for herself, from the beginning of harvest until rain fell on them from the heavens; she did not allow the birds of the air to come on the bodies by day, or the wild animals by night.


SECOND HEAVEN: = THE UNIVERSE, THAT CONTAINS THE STARS, AND GALAXIES.

Genesis 22:17-18 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

Nahum 3:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You have multiplied your merchants more than the stars of heaven. The locust plunders and flies away.


Philippians 2:15 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe


THIRD HEAVEN: = THE ETERNAL DWELLING PLACE OF GOD ABOVE THE STARS.

Job 22:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!

Isaiah 14:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations![SUP]13 [/SUP] For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

1 Kings 22:19 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Micaiah added, “Then hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and the entire army of heaven was standing near him on his right and his left.


Hebrews 8:1 (NCV)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Here is the point of what we are saying: We have a high priest who sits on the right side of God’s throne in heaven.



PARADISE: = THE THIRD HEAVEN

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1-2 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
[SUP]2 [/SUP] through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

 

[abcdef]

Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one buddy. Luke 17:22-25 yes, the rest of the passage, no.

I assure you nobody was out in the fields in 70 AD. Everything was destroyed, all the trees and plants were gone for miles. No one was really eating or drinking except the tyrants and robbers and nobody was getting married in 70 AD. Luke 17 paints a peaceful picture just moments before the "Son of Man is revealed.

This is when Rome comes to Jerusalem to destroy it, not after.

The "taken" is being taken as a slave, and the "one left behind" is dead, the other 1/3 is scattered, according to Ezek 5:12.

The eagles are Rome, v 37.

When Jesus comes again, there won't be any where to run to.

" Notice I didn't say "returns?" There was nothing peaceful about 70 AD.

Revealed that He was the Messiah, yes.

We have two "Christ" events. The first was the wrath "presence" return of 70 AD which happened the same day that the temple was destroyed.

Yes.

The second is yet future and deals with the end of time and final judgment.

Yes, separating the two is the key.

70 AD:
Mat 24:4-34
Mark 13:2-30
Luke 17:22-24
Luke 21:6-32

Future:
Mat 24:35-51
Mark 13:31-37

Luke 17:26-37
Luke 21:33-36

Both are 70 ad.

This is why there has been so much confusion and debate. The pre-tribbers see the two "comings" but they don't realize the GT happened in 70 AD so there is no need to be raptured from it. The preterists pick up on the GT of 70 AD and the "Wrath against Jerusalem presence return of Christ" back then but fail to see the future return associated with the end of time and final judgment and eternal state.

You have stated the problem correctly.

A pure preterist, has nothing after 70 ad. No resurrection, wedding, nothing, no hope, because everything has been fulfilled by 70 ad.

The pre-trib has nothing after Jesus' death/resur/Pentecost, depending on who you are talking to.

Both leave out the 1900 years after the dest of Jeru..

The 1900 years of persecution by the Roman iron beast nation on Israel, wild and natural branches.

The iron legs, one nation, one piece of iron, divided at the toes with clay, but solid.

Why try to change what God has so plainly said? The iron is Rome.

And it lasts until the stone strikes!

The reality is, the GT happened in 70 AD, Christ's presence was felt and His armies were seen in the sky but He used the Roman armies to end Israel as they knew it.

But that wasn't the end of the trib., it was just the beginning, it lasted until 1967, when Israel took control of Jerusalem. The trampling (control) of Jerusalem by the gentile nations was ended.

The millennium began at His resurrection, see Mt 28:18: "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." And thus, the Church age began

The mill began on the day of Pentecost when the kingdom on earth began.

It ends at the 2nd resurrection/rapture, just before the fire from heaven.

and the Mosaic age would end 40 years later at the destruction of the Temple.

The Law was nailed to the cross with Jesus and died with Him, having then been fulfilled.

But the remains of the Law period were until the temple destroyed in 70 ad. The end of the age.

We have been in the Church age (or Messianic Age) since 30 AD. Christ is reigning over this age as He is the head of the Church.

The signs of the end of the Church Age are the "days of Noah" which I take to mean lawlessness and wickedness but the sinners think everything is normal.

The biggest sign is Jerusalem restored to Israel.

See it in Rev., 2Ws, woman in the wild ch 12, the surrounding of Jerusalem ch 20

We also have the rebirth and gathering of Israel (which happened) then we will have a massive Muslim army surround her and God divinely intervenes, see Ez 38-39, Rev 20:7-9. Then we have the resurrection, the "rapture" and judgment followed by the eternal state.

Yes, Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

A massive gentile army, made up of armies from across the Euphrates river, and Magog.

Sorry but Ezek 38-39, is history.

But you are correct that this happens in Rev 20:7-9, this is where we are now!

It is the last thing that takes place on this planet before eternity.

The 2 witnesses, are the people of Israel who are killed, that is why this planet is destroyed, because Israel is destroyed and will be no more, except in eternity.

 

[abcdef]

The transition verse to these two main events (70 AD return and future) are these:

Mt 24: [SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Mk 13: [SUP]31 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Luke 21: [SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

After Christ introduces "heaven and earth passing away" He then starts to discuss this event. I like it. Testing this now but it seems to fit everything.

Heaven and earth did pass away at the dest of Jerusalem.

It began to pass with the earthquake at Jesus' death,

And finished passing in 70 ad..

This is shown at the 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17, 12, 14, 16.

V 12, An earthquake is a shift in the position of the earth in relation to the heavens. A new earth.

V 14, The heavens departed as a scroll, the old relationship with God is removed, new heavens are the result, (not literal)

V 16, Absolute proof that this is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad, Lk 23:28-30, Jesus words are spoken directly to the women of Jerusalem, and can only be fulfilled in that time period, as they are now dead and it cannot be fulfilled after that.

 

[abcdef]

I am growing weary of talking to brick walls, aren't you?

Here is how I try to open the eyes of those who refuse to See or Hear the Truth.


Luke 23:42-43 (HCSB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”


2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up {the same Greek word, "Harpazô", is where we get our word Rapture from, because of the Latin Translation of that word is: “Rapturo”} into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.


The Bible Discribes THREE HEAVENS:


FIRST HEAVEN: = ATMOSPHERE

Genesis 1:26 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

2 Samuel 21:10 (NRSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it on a rock for herself, from the beginning of harvest until rain fell on them from the heavens; she did not allow the birds of the air to come on the bodies by day, or the wild animals by night.


SECOND HEAVEN: = THE UNIVERSE, THAT CONTAINS THE STARS, AND GALAXIES.

Genesis 22:17-18 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

Nahum 3:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You have multiplied your merchants more than the stars of heaven. The locust plunders and flies away.


Philippians 2:15 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe


THIRD HEAVEN: = THE ETERNAL DWELLING PLACE OF GOD ABOVE THE STARS.

Job 22:12 (NIV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Is not God in the heights of heaven? And see how lofty are the highest stars!

Isaiah 14:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations![SUP]13 [/SUP] For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

1 Kings 22:19 (GW)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Micaiah added, “Then hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and the entire army of heaven was standing near him on his right and his left.


Hebrews 8:1 (NCV)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Here is the point of what we are saying: We have a high priest who sits on the right side of God’s throne in heaven.



PARADISE: = THE THIRD HEAVEN

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1-2 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
[SUP]2 [/SUP] through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

In the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, which paradise was that? the bosom of Abraham? Lk 16.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Stunnedbygrace: I read your post and see your point, of course you are not trying to get out of anything, however the pre-trib rapture is false as a three dollar bill and became popular because it offered a way out of the tribulation. Just believe what Jesus taught in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and you will be alright. Also, whether or not you store up money is your choice, there is nothing wrong in doing that, if things got bad then you could help other folks, while if you were broke you would have to be helped. Listen, have some Christians pray for your physical pains, I will do so also. There is nothing wrong in taking a pain pill as long as you control the use of it. It sounds like you are suffering in the flesh and in the soul also, try to think on good things as much as possible and practice those things that will help you to do better physically and spiritually. Above all, do not blame God, He loves you, if you keep your trust in Him then He will bring you through all things and into His kingdom where there is not pain.

 

[abcdef]

I have NEWS for you, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEVEN HILLS of Rome. IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS SEVEN MOUNTAINS, Mountains, Horns, and Heads in Biblical Prophecy are are symbolism for Kingdoms or Nations. The beast with 10 Horns, has 3 of them torn up by their roots; leaving SEVEN. Many of the Younger Generations, cannot figure out what that means, but my generation saw it HAPPEN to one country on the Nightly News. East Germany was torn up by it's roots; therefore it is as if it had NEVER EXISTED.

It says that the woman is a city that sits on those 7 hills/mountains. Sounds plain to me.

As for the the Number, GOD SAID IT WAS THE NUMBER OF A MAN, therefore your false prophets are deceiving and being deceived.

The man is the leader of the iron legs beast nation, the iron legs are Rome. Caesar is the leader of that nation.

Revelation 13:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man {PERSONAL ID NUMBER} it is, and its number is six hundred and sixty six.

Yes, the Bishop of Rome, his personal number.

Revelation 13:17 (YLT)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Forget your false prophet's Codes and Theories, IT SAYS IT IN PLAIN LITERAL ENGLISH.

The Bible is centered on Jesus and Israel, wild and natural branches. It's the earth/world of Israel, not the Planet.

[video=youtube;eob532iEpqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk&feature=related[/video]

When the Revelation was written, who was the enemy of Israel for the next 1900 years?

Rome and the gentile nations.

Do you disregard this and say that it is nothing to Israel?

 

[VCO]

I guess you don't need the mark because the section you conveniently didn't highlight says that the name or number of his name is good enough also. Have you thought about what it means to have his name or number of his name?

Now Scoffer, we were warned you will be.

Here is a time lapse video of the building of the world's largest supercomputer.

[video=youtube;zx677CceBAc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx677CceBAc[/video]

https://ornl.gov/news/oak-ridge-jaguar-supercomputer-worlds-fastest

 

[VCO]

In the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, which paradise was that? the bosom of Abraham? Lk 16.

Here is your mid-east culture lesson for the week. In their culture what does it mean to be in the bosom of someone else?

ALL IT MEANS IS TO BE THE BEST OF FRIENDS and show it publically by walking arm in arm.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, which paradise was that? the bosom of Abraham? Lk 16.

Hello abcdef,

Here is how to know where Abraham and Lazarus were in regards to the event of the rich man and Lazarus:

"The rich man also died and was buried.In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."

So, in the verse above, we see that the rich man died and was buried. Then it says he was in Hades in torment. Now, since the scripture says that the rich man died and was buried, the only possible conclusion would be that his spirit/soul was what was in Hades.

Now keeping that in mind, the rich man saw Lazarus far off at Abraham side and the rest of the scripture goes on to to say that Lazarus and Abraham were in a place of comfort/paradise and were separated from the rich man who was in torment in flame by a great chasm. So we know that the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham had all died and therefore, they were all under the earth in the area of Sheol/Hades, with the area of comfort separated from the area of torment.

The phrase "Abraham's Bosom" is just referring to the fact that Lazarus was at Abraham's side and does not refer to the name of the place where they were at.

Also, the word "paradise" is not a unique word reserved to only describe heaven. The garden of Eden was a paradise and the this place across from Hades was also a place of paradise. The fact that Sheol/Hades is under the earth and the place where Lazarus and Abraham were was right across from it, demonstrates that both places were under the earth.

 

[VCO]

Heaven and earth did pass away at the dest of Jerusalem.

It began to pass with the earthquake at Jesus' death,

And finished passing in 70 ad..

This is shown at the 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17, 12, 14, 16.

V 12, An earthquake is a shift in the position of the earth in relation to the heavens. A new earth.

V 14, The heavens departed as a scroll, the old relationship with God is removed, new heavens are the result, (not literal)

V 16, Absolute proof that this is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad, Lk 23:28-30, Jesus words are spoken directly to the women of Jerusalem, and can only be fulfilled in that time period, as they are now dead and it cannot be fulfilled after that.

Now that is the most commical and silly stupid, false teaching that I have ever heard.


We believe what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS, and sadly you apparently fall for whatever silly stupid false teaching your false prophet tells you.

Revelation 20:6-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 16:17-21 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] The seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as had never been since men were on the earth, so great was that earthquake.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
[SUP]12 [/SUP] as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

 

[tanakh]

The bowels of wrath?

No, not every Christian

The Bowels of wrath are what you get through eating too many Vindaloo curries.

 

[abcdef]

Now that is the most commical and silly stupid, false teaching that I have ever heard.

The word is comical, with one "m".

If you have never heard of the symbolism before, you may be not understanding things like you could.

We believe what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS, and sadly you apparently fall for whatever silly stupid false teaching your false prophet tells you.

Which false prophet would that be? You accuse me without proof.

If you are not familiar to the symbolism of the Bible, try studying it.

Revelation 20:6-10 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Literal and symbolic.

Rev 20:2, The dragon, has 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3, Rome iron beast nation.

Revelation 16:17-21 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] The seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as had never been since men were on the earth, so great was that earthquake.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.

Literal and symbolic

The end of the material world, after this, men may enter the temple of God in heaven, Rev 15:8.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
[SUP]12 [/SUP] as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Which coming/resurrection is this? The one with the fire from heaven?

If Jesus is on earth for the mill, how will He "come", like a thief and destroy the planet with fire?

Revelation 21:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

This material world "flies away" at the judgement, Rev 20.

-----

 

[PlainWord]

Heaven and earth did pass away at the dest of Jerusalem.

It began to pass with the earthquake at Jesus' death,

And finished passing in 70 ad..

This is shown at the 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17, 12, 14, 16.

V 12, An earthquake is a shift in the position of the earth in relation to the heavens. A new earth.

V 14, The heavens departed as a scroll, the old relationship with God is removed, new heavens are the result, (not literal)

V 16, Absolute proof that this is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad, Lk 23:28-30, Jesus words are spoken directly to the women of Jerusalem, and can only be fulfilled in that time period, as they are now dead and it cannot be fulfilled after that.

I know heaven and earth didn't pass away in 70 AD. You are reading it wrong. Christ was stating that although heaven and earth will one day pass away, His words won't. Then He went on to discuss the conditions leading up to when heaven and earth will eventually pass away and that nobody knows when, but when it does, it will be like the days of Noah.

 

[PlainWord]

Now Scoffer, we were warned you will be.

Here is a time lapse video of the building of the world's largest supercomputer.

[video=youtube;zx677CceBAc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx677CceBAc[/video]

https://ornl.gov/news/oak-ridge-jaguar-supercomputer-worlds-fastest

I am not scoffing. Christ could literally come back at almost any time.

Show me where it talks about supers computers in the Bible, please cite chapter and verse. I don't see plane, trains or automobiles either. Like in that movie, "You're going the wrong way." LOL.

 

[Bladerunner]

Many, many, assumptions on your part.

The AoD is the reason that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad

It was revealed at the dest. that Caesar was the Antichrist and Rome was the 4th beast/iron legs.

The end of the age was the end of the temple age.

Jesus returned with clouds of armies and destroyed Jerusalem.

---

The Antichrist was revealed as Caesar, in 70 ad. (Vatican)

But you are in denial that Rome is the beast.

Every time that you say that the Antichrist is not revealed,

You deny that Caesar/the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist, you're helping to hide him.

He's been here all this time.

please read the History that is available for that time period... The temple was destroyed by Fire. NO AoD Happened. Besides, there is one AoD that was and one AoD that will be and both of them are different.

For the AoD to come, The Antichrist has to stand in the Temple 'Holy of Hollies'. This did not happen in 70AD.

 

[Bladerunner]

Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, saying that the victory did not come through his own efforts but that he had merely served as an instrument of God's wrath.

The Jewish Amoraim attributed the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as punishment from God for the "baseless hatred" that pervaded Jewish society at the time. Many Jews in despair are thought to have abandoned Judaism for some version of paganism, many others sided with the growing Christian sect within Judaism.

The destruction was an important point in the separation of Christianity from its Jewish roots: many Christians responded by distancing themselves from the rest of Judaism, as reflected in the Gospels which some believe portray Jesus as anti-Temple and view the destruction of the temple as punishment for rejection of Jesus.

Bad thing to do on Titus's part....Rome's God was not our God....

 

[Bladerunner]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,and the 5th seal describes saint's souls under the altar in heaven,that say,how long Lord will it be until you avenge us,and He said,when all the saints are gathered unto Me,then He will avenge the saints.

To be absent from the Body (spirit/soul) is have a presence in Hell or with the Lord. you are right about the 5th seal.. Ask yourself a question at your next statement. WHY?... WHY are they asking HOW long will it be before they are avenged??? TO answer this in the short, they are Martyred Saints and it appears they are in the Gap Period (between the Pature and the Tribulations. If it had been in the Tribulations, then they would not have to ask HOW LONG. The tribulations are a Defined period of time (7 years LONG)

There is only two resurrections,one of the saints at the end of the great tribulation,before the millenial reign of Christ,and one after the millennial reign of Christ of the dead.

Blessed is he that gets caught up in the first resurrection,for the second resurrection has no hold on them.

You are right...there are only two resurrections of Mankind. The Rapture and the Great White THrone. Jesus resurrection is considered to be #1 resurrection that will continue in length until the Great White Throne Judgement #2.

The Rapture, The martyred Saints under the throne and the Saints (multitudes at Rev. 7:9) are different. These last Saints are tribulations Saints converted by the 144,000 sealed. These Saints have Palms in their hands and only sing a song. They know how long it will be...The last half of the Daniel's 70th week. 31/2 years.

The Second resurrection begins after toe 1000 year rule of Jesus Christ (physically on earth). The saints are all in heaven and the only ones raised are the dead in Hell. They are reunited with their bodies (second resurrection) and Judge by God (the Father) himself.



If the saints are already with Jesus in heaven right now,then how is the dead raised first,and then those that remain be caught up with them.

1.Saying the dead raised first might mean that all who die in Christ from the whole history of the Church are with Jesus,then when the resurrection happens,the alive ones get caught up.

2.They receive their glorified body first,then those alive get caught up,and receive their glorified body.

For there is no way the dead can rise first,as if their soul is in the grave,when the resurrection happens that catches all the saints alive to be with Jesus,for those that are absent from the body,their souls are already with Jesus.

There is nothing to actually rise up concerning the dead,before those alive are raised up at the resurrection,for they are already in heaven.

During the Rapture as (1Thes 4:13-18) the Dead (bodies only--their Souls are in heaven) are reunited with their Souls.... Then those of us who are alive will be "Caught-UP" in the Air to be with them. All human bodies in the air will be changed into an immortal body and will follow Jesus back to HIS HOUSE. Rem Here, NO ONE sees Jesus in the CLOUDS except the Church (those believers who are raptured). Compare this to His return as REV 1:7 tells us of the event that will happen in rev. 19:11-16.



I tend to believe it means that all who die in Christ are with the Lord all the way to those alive that get caught up,for they rose before the saints alive were caught up which is the tail end of the saints being caught up,for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,and all who die in Christ from the start of the Church to those who are alive and get caught up,are with Jesus anticipating when Jesus will get those rascally people for their wickedness.

Think you are making it harder than it really is. When you DIE, your SOUL leaves your body and goes direction or the other UP of DOWN. Simple NO>>>>> Again..For those that 'DIED IN CHRIST' their souls are in Heaven awaiting the raising of their bodies from the grave. This will happen in the Rapture.

Not that all the dead rise at the time of the resurrection,and then those alive,for they are already in heaven,unless it means they get their glorified body,then those alive get caught up and get their glorified body.

I agree, not all the Dead (bodies will arise at the Rapture--ONLY those IN CHRIST) The others await the Great Judgement at the end of the Millennium.

P.S. Might as well finish the Earth off. After the Great Judgement, God will destroy the earth completely by Fire and rebuild it again WITHOUT the Oceans. The New Jerusalem will descend down out of heaven for us to live with God (our father) and He with us. ETERNITY>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>->

 

[Bladerunner]

I am growing weary of talking to brick walls, aren't you?

Here is how I try to open the eyes of those who refuse to See or Hear the Truth.

I think AW, you and myself are in the same boat...I have tried to change minds here for over a year. Yes it is tiring but like you and AW I keep trying... If only one listens....I see you like John McArthur and his teachings... Someone ask him during an interview about what he would do when he came upon people that will not change. His answer and this is not a quote for it has been sometime since I saw that interview,,,, 'I don't know but I feel your Pain!' He also has been there.

Keep up the good words. Sooner or later someone will listen. God Willing!

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Heaven and earth did pass away at the dest of Jerusalem.

It began to pass with the earthquake at Jesus' death,

And finished passing in 70 ad..

This is shown at the 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17, 12, 14, 16.

V 12, An earthquake is a shift in the position of the earth in relation to the heavens. A new earth.

V 14, The heavens departed as a scroll, the old relationship with God is removed, new heavens are the result, (not literal)

V 16, Absolute proof that this is the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad, Lk 23:28-30, Jesus words are spoken directly to the women of Jerusalem, and can only be fulfilled in that time period, as they are now dead and it cannot be fulfilled after that.

Everytime you two (you and plainword) get together you come up with something totally different from a post of two before...I have come to think you are mostly making things up...

 

[VCO]

Hello abcdef,

Here is how to know where Abraham and Lazarus were in regards to the event of the rich man and Lazarus:

"The rich man also died and was buried.In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."

So, in the verse above, we see that the rich man died and was buried. Then it says he was in Hades in torment. Now, since the scripture says that the rich man died and was buried, the only possible conclusion would be that his spirit/soul was what was in Hades.

Now keeping that in mind, the rich man saw Lazarus far off at Abraham side and the rest of the scripture goes on to to say that Lazarus and Abraham were in a place of comfort/paradise and were separated from the rich man who was in torment in flame by a great chasm. So we know that the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham had all died and therefore, they were all under the earth in the area of Sheol/Hades, with the area of comfort separated from the area of torment.

The phrase "Abraham's Bosom" is just referring to the fact that Lazarus was at Abraham's side and does not refer to the name of the place where they were at.

Also, the word "paradise" is not a unique word reserved to only describe heaven. The garden of Eden was a paradise and the this place across from Hades was also a place of paradise. The fact that Sheol/Hades is under the earth and the place where Lazarus and Abraham were was right across from it, demonstrates that both places were under the earth.

Brother, you missed one obvious point: He looked UP FAR AWAY, not across. Personally, I think the theory that the good part of Hades was at that time also in the lower parts of the earth, IS FULL OF HOLES; as the very verse you posted points out.


Here here are some examples:

Job 12:10 (YLT)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] In whose hand is the breath of every living thing, And the spirit of all flesh of man.' {NOTICE, Breath and Spirit of Man are not the same thing.}

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?


Thus the possible concept of Absent from the Body is to be present with the LORD, was present even while the Book of Ecclesiastes was being written.

Couple that with these two verses, and it is almost a SURE THING:


Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8-9 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for
it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods,
which have not benefited those devoted to them.


And even other verses talk as if the human spirit is going to the presences of the LORD.


Psalm 31:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth.


Isaiah 26:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.


I think the idea that the good part of hades once was in lower parts of the earth, is a Catholic idea, that got drug over into Protestantism by Martin Luther and some of the other early Church Theologians. It was a false teaching that was spun out of a misundertanding of these verses.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)



To lead CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, is a Roman military expression about the Conqueror's Victory Parade. IT IS NOT THE CAPTIVES BEING LED. It is those who were those holding your POWs, that are being led in the Victory Parade when the Conqueror is going home. WHO MIGHT THAT BE?

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 (KJV)
[SUP]54 [/SUP] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Because of that verse, I believe the captivity being LED in the Lord's Victory Paraded is DEATH and the GRAVE.

I know it says: he also descended into the lower parts of the earth, but I know that can be also be symbolism for dieing and entering the grave; however, I think it is LITERAL and also part of HIS VICTORY PARADE. In fact, I think it is BOTH, but it certainly is not referring to going down to take the good part of Hades UP, as the Catholics teach.

YES, we all can agree HE LITERALLY DIED, ENTERED THE GRAVE, AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD. BUT the Scriptures do not give us enough information to determine if HE LITERALLY WENT BELOW THE GRAVE INTO SOMETHING DOWN THERE, and WHY. So I will give you my opinion, not totally substanciated by Scripture, but I think it is WAY MORE LOGICAL, than dragging the good part of Hades UP, which is equally an unsubstanciated theory. I THINK, HE went down to proclaim His Victory over the Fallen Angels in the PIT; who had tried so HARD to Stop Messiah from coming by polluting the human race via taking human wives prior to the Flood.


Genesis 6:4-7 (YLT)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them—they are the heroes, who, from of old, are the men of name.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And Jehovah seeth that abundant is the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself—unto His heart.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And Jehovah saith, `I wipe away man whom I have prepared from off the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens, for I have repented that I have made them.'


Genesis 6:4-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Because our world is the theater where the glorious, God-honoring story of redemption is played out, Satan and his demon hosts have attacked the human race, turning the earth into the main battleground in their cosmic war against God, the holy angels, and the elect. Satan launched his first assault in the Garden of Eden, where he successfully tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God. The disastrous consequences were that "sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
After the Fall, God graciously promised a Savior who would come to destroy Satan and deliver people from his power (Gen. 3:15). Satan countered by sending demons to cohabitate with human women, attempting to produce a hybrid demon/human race of people for whom the God-Man could not atone (Gen. 6:1-4). In response, God destroyed that race and the whole sinful world in the powerful judgment of the universal Flood—the single greatest catastrophe the earth has yet seen.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.

2 Peter 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus {the Abyss or the Pit} and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

Luke 8:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. {They appear to have first hand knowledge of where those who took daughters of human men as wives, had been sent.}


That is why I lean towards a literal descent into that Abyss to PROCLAIM HIS VICTORY. He would have had a strong motive to do so. However in all fairness, their is also evidence that it only symbolized DEATH and the GRAVE.


Romans 10:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

Jonah 2:6 (NCV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When I went down to where the mountains of the sea start to rise, I thought I was locked in this prison forever, but you saved me from the pit of death, LORD my God.


Psalm 30:8-9 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To you, O LORD, I cried, and to the LORD I made supplication:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?