THE RAPTURE

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RickyZ said:
Judgment is a legal action, allowing one to 'reap what they have sown'. It is an act of accountability, and a measured response

Judgment says you had your day in court. Wrath allows you no defense.

Wrath is an emotion. While judgment may be restrained wrath is not. It is poured out in overwhelming measure.

Judgment sates justice. Wrath sates anger.

Since we are accountable to God we will see His judgment. Since God loves us, we will not see the anger of His wrath.
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Another thing.

All are accountable,and he loves the whole world.

The wrath/judgement dynamic is the wrong battle. Wrong prism.

The correct one is church/ Jacobs trouble.


Wrath vs judgement is a non issue
 
Judgement is the crack of the gavel, and the words spoken by the judge - his decision.
But it doesn't end there. The consequences of having defied the judge have to be then faced.
God is very patient, but He does not put men to death without His WRATH against sin being shown.
I still can't comprehend the thought that God rained down brimstone and destruction, wiping out a whole town, but that He was not angry about anything. It defies common sense of any sort to me. And it has God slaughtering people but saying, now I'm not angry, I just want you to know, but I'm going to destroy you anyway, okay?
 
We shall see my friends, we shall see.

Just promise me one thing - that when you find yourself in the middle of a situation that you didn't plan for, you won't go apostate.
 
RickyZ said:
We shall see my friends, we shall see.

Just promise me one thing - that when you find yourself in the middle of a situation that you didn't plan for, you won't go apostate.
Click to expand...

Done deal! I find myself in a situation I didn't plan for every day...
 
popeye said:
Except it says the dead rise first.

That takes all plausible away from everything but a pretrib rapture.

The gathering in rev 14.

That would make a postrib resurrection confuse Jesus words.

Maybe he misspoke?

He possibly meant to say" the dead rise second"?
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I don't understand why you think the dead don't rise first in the Post Trib Rapture? The dead still rise first in my view. How can a post-trib resurrection confuse Christ's words?

Doesn't Jesus tell us that the Resurrection is on the last day?

John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Didn't Martha also understand that the Resurrection of her brother would be on the last day?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Since we agree the Rapture is after the Resurrection and since we know the Resurrection is on the Last Day, that means the Rapture cannot be before the Great Tribulation of Israel because we know there are more days left, right?

The Resurrection and Rapture can only be on the very Last Day which is the same day of the Gathering or Harvest of Rev 14. In the Harvest both the righteous and wicked are harvested. This happens on the very last day.

Mat 13: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” [SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [SUP]50 [/SUP]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Do you see that? First the Tares are gathered. The angels separate the wicked out and cast them in the furnace!! This means there is no more wicked, they are gone - dead. If they are gone in dead there is no wicked left to invade Israel. There is no one left for Satan to deceive. Since the wicked are gathered before the righteous, how can this happen before the Tribulation????

Daniel tells us the same thing!!

Here in Dan 11, the AntiChrist is dead:

[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Here after the end of the AntiChrist, after the Tribulation of Israel, in Dan 12 we have the resurrection of both righteous and wicked.

And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This can only happen after the Tribulation because if it happened before, there would be nobody left on the planet for the Tribulation to take place!!

Look at this:

John 5: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

There are two resurrections, (ALL, not some, WHO ARE IN GRAVES) one for the righteous into eternal life, one for the wicked into eternal condemnation. They happen at the same time!! Therefore there simply CANNOT be a pre-trib resurrection and if there cannot be a pretrib resurrection, there cannot be a pre-trib Rapture because as you said, the resurrection comes first.

I rest my case!!
 
PlainWord said:
I don't understand why you think the dead don't rise first in the Post Trib Rapture? The dead still rise first in my view. How can a post-trib resurrection confuse Christ's words?

Doesn't Jesus tell us that the Resurrection is on the last day?

John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Didn't Martha also understand that the Resurrection of her brother would be on the last day?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Since we agree the Rapture is after the Resurrection and since we know the Resurrection is on the Last Day, that means the Rapture cannot be before the Great Tribulation of Israel because we know there are more days left, right?

The Resurrection and Rapture can only be on the very Last Day which is the same day of the Gathering or Harvest of Rev 14. In the Harvest both the righteous and wicked are harvested. This happens on the very last day.

Mat 13: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” [SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [SUP]50 [/SUP]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Do you see that? First the Tares are gathered. The angels separate the wicked out and cast them in the furnace!! This means there is no more wicked, they are gone - dead. If they are gone in dead there is no wicked left to invade Israel. There is no one left for Satan to deceive. Since the wicked are gathered before the righteous, how can this happen before the Tribulation????

Daniel tells us the same thing!!

Here in Dan 11, the AntiChrist is dead:

[SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Here after the end of the AntiChrist, after the Tribulation of Israel, in Dan 12 we have the resurrection of both righteous and wicked.

And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This can only happen after the Tribulation because if it happened before, there would be nobody left on the planet for the Tribulation to take place!!

Look at this:

John 5: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

There are two resurrections, (ALL, not some, WHO ARE IN GRAVES) one for the righteous into eternal life, one for the wicked into eternal condemnation. They happen at the same time!! Therefore there simply CANNOT be a pre-trib resurrection and if there cannot be a pretrib resurrection, there cannot be a pre-trib Rapture because as you said, the resurrection comes first.

I rest my case!!
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You do? On a false concept?

Rev 14 has a gathering DURING THE GT.

Under your deal,the dead do not rise first.

Your CASE just went bye- bye
 
We hear over and over the twisting of the rapture.

Why?

The dead rise first.

THEN TOGETHER BOTH GROUPS MEET THE LORD IN THE SKY.


TOGETHER.....THEY GO TO HEAVEN TOGETHER.

NO PAUSE,NO INTERLUDE,NO GAP
 
popeye said:
We hear over and over the twisting of the rapture.

Why?

The dead rise first.

THEN TOGETHER BOTH GROUPS MEET THE LORD IN THE SKY.


TOGETHER.....THEY GO TO HEAVEN TOGETHER.

NO PAUSE,NO INTERLUDE,NO GAP
Click to expand...

That's right. No arguments here. The dead rise first, then those who are still alive and remaining after the Great Tribulation of Israel are caught up. But as I showed earlier, the wicked and righteous rise on the last day so there cannot be a pre-trib timing. If it happened pre-trib, there would be nothing to be "alive and left remaining" from.
 
I truly don't think any intentional twisting is being done. On either side.
Let's face it - there is so much that remains mysterious about prophecy not yet fulfilled.
 
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5.

If this happens Pre-Trib, where do the risen wicked go to hang out during the Tribulation?
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
Judgement is the crack of the gavel, and the words spoken by the judge - his decision.
But it doesn't end there. The consequences of having defied the judge have to be then faced.
God is very patient, but He does not put men to death without His WRATH against sin being shown.
I still can't comprehend the thought that God rained down brimstone and destruction, wiping out a whole town, but that He was not angry about anything. It defies common sense of any sort to me. And it has God slaughtering people but saying, now I'm not angry, I just want you to know, but I'm going to destroy you anyway, okay?
Click to expand...

Actually

WE determine for ourselves by our life-choicews either Eternak=l Hell or Eternal Heaven.

GOD ONLY affirms OUR own choicesGod Bless you
Patrick
 
PlainWord said:
That's right. No arguments here. The dead rise first, then those who are still alive and remaining after the Great Tribulation of Israel are caught up. But as I showed earlier, the wicked and righteous rise on the last day so there cannot be a pre-trib timing. If it happened pre-trib, there would be nothing to be "alive and left remaining" from.
Click to expand...
That would be like reading an obituary and assuming the relatives were in the holocaust because it said "surviving"

Maybe they were in a train crash since it said" surviving"
 
popeye said:
That would be like reading an obituary and assuming the relatives were in the holocaust because it said "surviving"

Maybe they were in a train crash since it said" surviving"
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Can we really fit 2.2 Billion people on a train, or two trains, assuming a head-on??:D:D.


What do you really think they were alive and remaining from, as Paul says? Sounds like they went through something bad. Sounds also like a lot of people didn't make it.
 
P
working4christ2 said:
Actually

WE determine for ourselves by our life-choicews either Eternak=l Hell or Eternal Heaven.

GOD ONLY affirms OUR own choicesGod Bless you
Patrick
Click to expand...


Hmm...have to disagree on this because 1. Blind men can't make any choice and, #2. It does not glorify God to say smart blind men make a good choice and stupid blind men make a bad choice. In fact, what you've said sounds like it glorifies some men by giving them credit in some way for their blindness being cured or for their being a part in their own saving by being somehow capable of choosing correctly. I don't know if I made sense there to you haha...
 
I have yet to hear a pre-tribber explain how the resurrection of both living and dead can occur before the Great Tribulation and still happen on the last day. We know the resurrection happens just prior to and/or is part of the "rapture." Most think the Great Tribulation lasts 3.5 or 7 years so how can the resurrection be on the last day?

Popeye's explanation of the train wreck isn't all that convincing (humorous as it may be) to explain what the "raptured" are alive and remaining from. Does any one else have a better theory?

...we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
 
PlainWord said:
I have yet to hear a pre-tribber explain how the resurrection of both living and dead can occur before the Great Tribulation and still happen on the last day. We know the resurrection happens just prior to and/or is part of the "rapture." Most think the Great Tribulation lasts 3.5 or 7 years so how can the resurrection be on the last day?

Popeye's explanation of the train wreck isn't all that convincing (humorous as it may be) to explain what the "raptured" are alive and remaining from. Does any one else have a better theory?

...we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
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Alive and remain,means earth dwelling believers.

Dead in Christ,means dead believers under the earth

That is all that it says.

All anyone should need it to say.

"after the GT" is simply not there,nor is implied
 
1thes 4 says the risen dead rise up to heaven TOGETHER with the ones alive in Christ.

Why muddy that up??
 
popeye said:
1thes 4 says the risen dead rise up to heaven TOGETHER with the ones alive in Christ.

Why muddy that up??
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No, it does not.

Nowhere in this passage does it say anything about anyone "rising up to heaven" - unless, of course, you define 'heaven' as "in the clouds" / "in the air"... ( first heaven )


1 Thessalonians 4:

[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



:)
 
It is only in the imagination that the resurrected / raptured "go any higher up" than "in the clouds" / "in the air" - the first heaven. The Bible does not actually say that they "go any higher up" than that place where they are all 'assembled'...

:)
 
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