The Rapture Event
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Thanks. I kind of get happy when I find friendly fellow pilgrims who have the same Jesus I have!
I may have grosssly understated this!
I believe we follow the Jesus and have the same heart for him you have a friend in me buddyThanks. I kind of get happy when I find friendly fellow pilgrims who have the same Jesus I have!
I may have grosssly understated this!
Ok.Are you basing this assertion on explicit biblical teaching, or by drawing conclusions based on inexplicit biblical teachings? The Law forgave sins, as surely as the NT forgives sins. The only difference is that OT forgiveness lacked the capacity to grant eternal life. You could, I should think, be a "virgin" temporarily, ie until one sinned again?
NT saints can be just as "wayward" as ancient Israel was under the Law! Read the 7 letters to the churches in Asia in the book of Revelation! Read Paul's letters to the Corinthians!
I was the one who just shared this reality with you!
Why don't *you* to a study on "Covenant Theology?" I don't adhere to that particular school, but it contains all that you are claiming doeesn't exist outside of Dispensationalism.
Nobody here is denying that the international Church is the Bride of Christ! What i deny is your division of Israel from the Church when the reality is that only the *nation* of Israel is currently lost, whereas a remnant of Jews remain within the fold.
When Christ returns I believe he will restore not just a few Jews, but the whole nation to the place of national blessing. Israel will become a Christian nation in the Millennium.
Dispensationalism is unbiblical, and the product of John N. Darby. Why didn't Bible teachers find this teaching in the Bible for 1800 years? It was because it just wasn't there!
The parable we refer to was given to Israel while it was under the Law. Therefore, I believe its terms and symbols should apply within that particular context, at best applying to the Gentile Church only after the fact by way of extension or principle. Take care....
Just keep guessing at it since you have not done any investigation.
Pretend the OT saints were not purchased.
Making Jesus sacrifice irrelevant since they were already pure, undefiled, and waiting on Jesus.
Nothing you said has any traction.
I am pretrib and have never said or believed Jesus could come any day.That's the whole idea--whatever your view of the "Rapture," we are always to be "ready" for the Kingdom. In my belief we are ready and prepared simply by maintaining a clean, holy, and righteous life. That is being "ready."
For Pretribbers, being 'ready" means expecting Jesus could come on any day. I don't need that kind of expectation to maintain a godly lifestyle every day.
But the important thing is just to be "ready" by living for Christ and by expecting that his Kingdom is near and coming soon. It will judge us all.
If we live for Christ we have nothing to be worried about. God bless.
The 10 virgins were warned.
But postrib rapture Right away paints itself in a corner, because it absolutely depends on the "one coming" concept, and that's just completely anti Bible, anti scriptural, a total Farce, impossible, therefore off the table.
We own this portion of eschatology.
Postrib coming is rev 19.
Jesus comes to earth on white horses with the saints.
No rapture at that time at all.
In fact the Jews have already been harvested way before the GT ends.
But I just shake my head at trying to fit all 3 comings into one (in spite of verses ?)
Huh?
When you read act 1
"This same Jesus that you see going up into heaven will return in like manner as you see him leave. Did you immediately in your imagination see Jesus with millions of saints on white horses, going up into heaven in a war zone, and Jesus as a a general going up to heaven to take vengeance and destroy the Antichrist up in heaven, is that what you imagined?
(Uh, actually he went up solo as a priest with grace and with no other human accompanying him whatsoever)
But amazingly a postribber will transpose that exactly backwards.
When you were "enlightened" into antipretrib "high ground", did you read rev 14 where 144k JEWISH Saints are gathered AS FIRSTFRUITS to heaven DURING THE TRIB, and then five sentences later we see the main Jewish Harvest all during the GT? And then just say in your mind ,"well I know that knocks a hole in my one coming deal but I just can't believe that pre-trib nonsense".
That approach of "condemnation prior to investigation" is a guarantee of error.
Well, the truth is, you aren't really being honest. You said I haven't done any investigation. Of course i have. If all you want to do is marginalize my claims by submitting false evidence then I don't think we can debate anything.
Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven just as he left and disappeared into the clouds of heaven. In other words, as he went up to heaven so he's coming down from heaven. What he will actually look like in his new glorified body I don't know? That he will be recognized in some way I do know.
We are told that Jesus will return from heaven as he went into heaven--not that he was going up to heaven with a million-man Army and will return *in the same way.* Since he went up to heaven without a big army, the focus is not on who he is returning with but on the fact he is coming back from heaven, just as he went to heaven.
I don't consider it wise to build a doctrine on visions that have no explicit chronologies. I don't see the 144K as being gathered *during the Tribulation.* I think they are seen on Mt. Zion in ch. 14 as a prolepsis, indicating their salvation on the day of Christ's Return. The Harvest, also, I see as taking place on the last day of the age, the Day of the Lord, when Christ returns in glory.
I don't have any condemnation for Dispensationalists--just disagreement with the theology. Since I believe it misrepresents true biblical doctrine, I do think it is dangerous. And the fruits are bound to be divisive and angry. You can show me otherwise, if you wish. I do know of some Dispensationalists who are not sarcastic and ungodly (with respect to their doctrine).
Thanks mate.. awesome. For me when I read Matt-John there was no Chruch no Christians. It was Jewish people that asked. It was people still living under by the law. What Paul was shown by Christ was still hidden. Its not God/Christ/Sweet holy Spirit telling us its only Post tribulation or mid tribulation or pre tribulation. Its some precious believer.. as one said "The believer is a bond-slave by nature. What a precious thing is the trump of jubilee, and the ransom-price that sets him free. C.H.S"
We do tend to think we have fully studied say "caught up" rapture. As one posted here "On the other hand, you have in fact been *taught* Pretribism. This Dispensationalist view did not exist in the Church for 1800 years! Nobody had believed in it--not even those who for countless generations had read the Bible through and through, never seeing such teaching and therefore never teaching it. "
I think before this site was even thought of I went searching and back then it was allot harder. Even today you can't just google this. I wanted to know if anyone talked about Jesus coming for His Chruch before the great tribulation. I can still see the pages of the scrolls. See there was this Hymn writer and preacher that wrote about Christ coming before the great tribulation aka pre-trib. Anyone could read the scrolls. Some time later when Paul and Jan Crouch were young on TBN this man had a reg show on TBN and I just happen to tune in and .. I was shocked he talked so much about this Hymn writer showed the scrolls which was dated 300-400ad. Then some time later he should more stuff before 300-400 ad and then after 400ad. This 1800.. 1830 what ever. What about say 1600? Yeah you can read about Christ coming before the great tribulation aka pre-trib
So its not worth getting into. I'm not here to prove pre mid post. Over 50+ years in the lord I still cannot prove one over the other . One main reason is.. this is not something one can just make a simple post and then tada! It takes just pages talking about the OT which .. oddly most leave out. Christ said.. Moshe (Moses) wrote about me there is so much about Christ there. See if I am say seeking to prove pre tib the lord will then show me nothing. See anytime I go in knowing the truth already yet asking Him.. He will never say a word. Some understand this some will not.
If one was to ask me where are today? Well end times for sure but it's not time yet. There are billions in this world today.. not my kids not my creation but His. Since He controls time and the time has been shorten yet its about all those people we pass day in day out that need Jesus.. always praying to put the perfect believer across the path of those that do not believe.. so they hear how much GOD loved them died for them set them free. That is what He is doing.. fact He is not ever debating "when" He comes for His Church.. His kids are.
He's coming soon and its not going to be where some believer stands up and says "YES I was right!" No.. He alone gets the glory not you nor me. You and I are not right when it comes to this. Pre mid post.. matters not .. are you watching ready repented now? That is what matters. Do you know how much He loves you right where you are?
We do tend to think we have fully studied say "caught up" rapture. As one posted here "On the other hand, you have in fact been *taught* Pretribism. This Dispensationalist view did not exist in the Church for 1800 years! Nobody had believed in it--not even those who for countless generations had read the Bible through and through, never seeing such teaching and therefore never teaching it. "
I think before this site was even thought of I went searching and back then it was allot harder. Even today you can't just google this. I wanted to know if anyone talked about Jesus coming for His Chruch before the great tribulation. I can still see the pages of the scrolls. See there was this Hymn writer and preacher that wrote about Christ coming before the great tribulation aka pre-trib. Anyone could read the scrolls. Some time later when Paul and Jan Crouch were young on TBN this man had a reg show on TBN and I just happen to tune in and .. I was shocked he talked so much about this Hymn writer showed the scrolls which was dated 300-400ad. Then some time later he should more stuff before 300-400 ad and then after 400ad. This 1800.. 1830 what ever. What about say 1600? Yeah you can read about Christ coming before the great tribulation aka pre-trib
So its not worth getting into. I'm not here to prove pre mid post. Over 50+ years in the lord I still cannot prove one over the other . One main reason is.. this is not something one can just make a simple post and then tada! It takes just pages talking about the OT which .. oddly most leave out. Christ said.. Moshe (Moses) wrote about me there is so much about Christ there. See if I am say seeking to prove pre tib the lord will then show me nothing. See anytime I go in knowing the truth already yet asking Him.. He will never say a word. Some understand this some will not.
If one was to ask me where are today? Well end times for sure but it's not time yet. There are billions in this world today.. not my kids not my creation but His. Since He controls time and the time has been shorten yet its about all those people we pass day in day out that need Jesus.. always praying to put the perfect believer across the path of those that do not believe.. so they hear how much GOD loved them died for them set them free. That is what He is doing.. fact He is not ever debating "when" He comes for His Church.. His kids are.
He's coming soon and its not going to be where some believer stands up and says "YES I was right!" No.. He alone gets the glory not you nor me. You and I are not right when it comes to this. Pre mid post.. matters not .. are you watching ready repented now? That is what matters. Do you know how much He loves you right where you are?
I'm not interested in telling a story that seems plausible to you or to anybody--only declare what the Lord has given me to declare. Even if it sounds peripheral and irrelevant, if the Lord makes it clear to me that it is important to Him--no matter how seemingly insignificant, then I will share it.
You don't find Pretrib vs Postrib relevant--I do. God had it taught by Daniel, Jesus, and Paul, and also by the Apstle John. It is all a singular teaching, originating in Dan 7 and then becoming NT eschatology. Jesus taught it while still under the Law in the Olivet Discourse, and Paul taught it, along with John, in the NT era. They are all linked to Daniel in Dan 7.
It's not for me to say this is unimportant. That other truths are more important I might admit. It is more important to be saved than to have your eschatology right. But if it wasn't important it wouldn't have been taught in the Scriptures. So it does play an important role in some ways.
Yes, there are examples of a *kind of* Pretrib before 1830. They are usually examples of "Pre-Wrath" though, because they are really just given to show the Church evading the final Wrath at Christ's Coming.
But they are *not* Pretrib in the Dispensationalist way, with the Rapture of the Church taking place 7 years prior to the end of the age. Nor are they predicated on the idea that Christ could've come on any day of the present age, as it taught in Dispensationalism.
It is taught by Dispensastionalists that all prophecies were fulfilled in the very beginning, meaning that Christ could then return "on any day of the NT age.* Where is this taught in the history of the Church? Not saying it wasn't--I'd just like to know where, before 1830, this "imminency Doctrine" was taught in this specific way?
We all know that there were likely varied expectations about Christ's soon Coming early on, since Jesus had proclaimed in his 1st Coming that his Kingdom was "near." But Peter declared that one day with the Lord can be as a thousand years. And so it has been. What I don't see are Christians proclaiming in history that Christ could return "on any day," though it may have been. Certainly it was after Darby's Dispensationalism, but was it before him?
God bless. I'm happy you've walked with the Lord so long, and want to keep the Lord supreme above all of our own wishes and desires. Take care...
Precious Blade, will have to respectfully disagree; I was taught pre-trib in my baby years, but
upon maturity I took 18 months off (because of confusion/divisiveness, etc...) and fully studied
in 'on my own' with only The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided. Results? Here ya go, but haven't
gotten much discussion, mostly just criticisms of this 17-part Bible study:
The Great GRACE Departure! {aka rapture}
Outline!:
"Do all things Decently And In Order!" (1 Corinthians 14:40 AV)
(1A) PEACE With God! Receiving The Holy Spirit For understanding?
(1B) 1A e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d for Clarification?
(2a) Which Bible: AV, or, any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Bible study Rules!
(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - Brief Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure Expectations!?
(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking: For WHOM! or, For "signs"?
(9) God's Removal Of His Body Of CHRIST!:
(10) "Day Of CHRIST { Light }!" / Rightly Divided from {RDf}:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ "The Day Of The LORD [ Darkness ]!"?
(11) Confidence in death/resurrection, Or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Come "Without Warning!"?
(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God, In His "Age Of GRACE"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air" Up To Heaven! vs U-turn (theology?)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Back down To earth?
(15) Preparation For [ Israel's tribulation? OR: ]
The Judgment Seat Of Christ!? (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)
(16) Post Departure Deception Question?
+
Part 17 Conclusion { ~100 Bible verses, Rightly Divided }:
God's Great GRACE Departure!
There has been almost No interest in any of this, but, As God Is my Witness, this
has been, and will be [ until I go ] Very Comforting for me [ a very OLD man ] anyway!:
Always open for kind and encouraging discussions about:
God's Great GRACE Departure!
+
More Encouraging study:
Evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (K Lawson)
Amen.
Oh yea--our goal is to glorify the Lord--not win arguments. There are a good number of mature Christians among us who know that disagreement does not always divide. God bless...
Lol
You left out "like manner"
SMH.
Your postrib rapture model COMPLETELY fails that test.
In fact your theory is EXACTLY OPPOSITE.
100% OPPOSITE of how The angels prophesied his coming.
But pretend he left in warrior king mode with millions of horses and on his way to heaven to slaughter the AC and his army with millions of saints.
Have acts 1 reprinted and then "like manner" fits perfectly.
What a shame the Holy Spirit made sure we are not to be deceived.
You , are DEFINlTELY, deceived by a failed doctrine.
The "like manner" fits pretrib rapture PERFECTLY.
kinda slick how you framed me personally as sarcastic and ungodly.
Ok slick.
You sank to the same level as those you are condemning
Btw
"Condemnation prior to investigation" has ZERO to do with condemning anyone personally.
It is simply saying people throw out study and facts because of ignorance and REFUSAL to look at evidence. (condemning a doctrine with no investigation of evidence of what that doctrine really says)
"Condemnation prior to investigation."
You could actually name the postrib workbook exactly that.
You actually come up with far fetched IDEAS of act 1 and Matt 25 and rev 14.
You are actually reducing revelation to a vision not to be taken seriously
Ok
Look at this ridiculous post.
1 I am pretribber and I believe the AC is revealed pretrib .
2 you accuse PRETRIBS of being "taught"
Then you go into some ridiculous example of how I could not read my bible for myself but dead men put a spell on PRETRIBS.
Well well well, kinda funny how in your workbook postribbers boast of getting their ENTIRE FOUNDATION from dead church fathers.
Not the bible!!! But since you found the erroneous doctrine in dead church fathers it just has to be right.
Oh the irony of you guys depending on church fathers that were so loaded with heresy Iraneuos wrote the book " against heresy" to address the magnitude of error where you guys feast.
You're welcome to your opinion. I understand your argument, but cannot accept it as reasonable.
I cannot see "in like manner" as an assumption that millions of horses followed Jesus as he ascended into the clouds of heaven. Rather, he ascended alone into heaven, and will return from heaven "in like manner."
That is, in the way he went up to heaven he will return from heaven. It has no reference to who went with him or to who comes with him. It strictly has to do with the fact that he left for heaven and will return from heaven. That is my opinion and conviction.
"In like manner" cannot possibly assume a Pretrib Rapture because it was a reference to Jesus' ascension into heaven following his resurrection, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church. And yet Jesus is coming back with his Church. So, when we are told Jesus will return "in like manner just as he left" the obvious inference is to his Ascension, and not to a Pretrib Rapture of the Church.
1st, I'm not accusing you of anything. I was once a Pretribber, and changed my opinion due to evidence that came in. I don't think I was "evil" for believing in Pretrib, nor do I think you're "evil" for believing in Pretrib. We are just having a difference of opinion on this.
2nd, it is not an "accusation" that you were "taught Pretrib." I say this because Darby's Dispensationalist system did not preexist him.
That is, nobody in the history of the Church, for 1800 years, saw in the Bible Darby's Dispensationalist Teaching. So since Darby's time, nobody would get Dispensationalism from the Bible unless it comes via Darby's Teaching. This is an assumption I'm making--you don't have to agree.
3rd, I don't know what the point is in your saying the Antichrist is Pretrib? We all know that the Antichrist rises before he reigns, right?
What is the basis for your hostility directed at the Church Fathers? Is this your idea of "Christian love?" And if you're not really living a Christian life, I'm not really interested in debating anything with you from a Christian perspective.