The Problem With Grace

[ChrisTillinen]

What you are feeling is the direct result of a mistaken notion that your sin is less heinous than someone else’s, so you deserve God’s forgiveness while they don’t. The hard reality is that you don’t deserve it either.

I think there's biblical justification for the idea that apart from being in Christ, the consequences of various sins are ultimately the same (though that may be more nuanced due to the possibility of degrees of punishment) as well as the idea that no one deserves forgiveness. What's far less clear to me is the basis of the oft-repeated claim that all sins are equally severe or equally heinous. No one is going to make it to heaven by sinning less than the other guy, but still, it seems that there are clear differences. Different sins can violate God's perfect standard of justice and his good order of creation (what's left of it in the fallen world) to differing extents. Also, I would suspect that (to take a rather extreme example) a cold-blooded murder is going to do (at least on average) more spiritual damage to the perpetrator than flipping the bird to someone in traffic, even though both may qualify as sins.

I think this is rather comparable to a situation where people are trying to jump over Grand Canyon and some jump only a yard or two where someone else might be able to make a new long jump record and jump 10 yards into the canyon. It won't make a difference for the outcome, but clearly they're still not the same.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Yes. You're right. But I also believe God gave me a strong sense of right and wrong. When Moses saw that the Israelites were worshipping the Golden Calf, he broke the tablets ('cause the law had been broken). Was he right to be angry? Was he right to tell the Levites to take every person who participated in this (people whom the Levites loved) and put them to the sword? How mean! How ungracious!

No. They were an infection that needed to be purged!

I'm not calling for such behavior now. But God is not mocked!

6 Types of Prayer

You brought up a valid topic that should be addressed. Fewer and fewer are teaching on this. It must not be popular like the Joel Osteen messages of 99% positive.
I can provide the answer with the Bible to describe what the Lord is like.
Right now I'm pressed for time, so I suppose it ok to give a few good studies that were already taught?

When you get to the part about imprecatory prayers, you'll see the balanced view that the Bible describes on this subject.
There are documentaries as well if you are looking for a Biblical point of view.

 

[HeIsHere]

... where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Romans 5:20 (KJV)

Amen!

 

[Aaron56]

Just to season the discussion a bit.

First, I understand that the gospel is, and should be, simple. Elementary. Not elementary as if it is a child's thing. But elementary as a foundational thing. So I absolutely support a simple message of good news to the world.

However, resilience against the work of the enemy comes through maturity. We see this in the natural: children are not left to fend for themselves. Even nature knows to protect its little ones. And the protectors are the immature are the mature. Not only are they typically older and wiser, but they also share a physical bond: the protectors tend to be the fathers and mothers of the babes.

"..to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ"

This is the great sin of the church: they have not focused on the maturity of the believer. The leadership is to and will be to blame for the great falling away because they did not prepare the children. They were content with numbers and the income that comes from enrollment. (As an aside: the final trap of the enemy is a financial one: you cannot buy or sell without supporting the beast. If the church leadership is already corrupted by the lure of money what chance do the people under their care have to resist the evil one during his final campaign!

Even so, regarding grace, the people are taught the child's version of grace (unmerited favor) but are not taught how to walk in it, exist in it, or how God leverages grace for our benefit.

God's grace is shown as unmerited favor, for sure, but grace is primarily how God accomplishes His work.
So, grace can be shown as a man given to new believers (like Paul)
...as the authority of Christ to keep believers from the enemy
...as the goodness of God shown in His plan for men
...as the right necessary to receive good things from God
etc.

The church, by and large, has restricted grace to the salvation to go to heaven message simply because that's all they know how to teach. But it is much more. And knowing the more is a requirement for growing up into Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

Just to season the discussion a bit.

First, I understand that the gospel is, and should be, simple. Elementary. Not elementary as if it is a child's thing. But elementary as a foundational thing. So I absolutely support a simple message of good news to the world.

However, resilience against the work of the enemy comes through maturity. We see this in the natural: children are not left to fend for themselves. Even nature knows to protect its little ones. And the protectors are the immature are the mature. Not only are they typically older and wiser, but they also share a physical bond: the protectors tend to be the fathers and mothers of the babes.

"..to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ"

This is the great sin of the church: they have not focused on the maturity of the believer. The leadership is to and will be to blame for the great falling away because they did not prepare the children. They were content with numbers and the income that comes from enrollment. (As an aside: the final trap of the enemy is a financial one: you cannot buy or sell without supporting the beast. If the church leadership is already corrupted by the lure of money what chance do the people under their care have to resist the evil one during his final campaign!

Even so, regarding grace, the people are taught the child's version of grace (unmerited favor) but are not taught how to walk in it, exist in it, or how God leverages grace for our benefit.

God's grace is shown as unmerited favor, for sure, but grace is primarily how God accomplishes His work.
So, grace can be shown as a man given to new believers (like Paul)
...as the authority of Christ to keep believers from the enemy
...as the goodness of God shown in His plan for men
...as the right necessary to receive good things from God
etc.

The church, by and large, has restricted grace to the salvation to go to heaven message simply because that's all they know how to teach. But it is much more. And knowing the more is a requirement for growing up into Christ.

Therefore ask God

Hebrews 5:12-6:3

King James Version



12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Believe God, receive truth from God and see in maturity, being made wise as a serpent, remaining harmless as a dove

 

[Eli1]

Just to season the discussion a bit.

First, I understand that the gospel is, and should be, simple. Elementary. Not elementary as if it is a child's thing. But elementary as a foundational thing. So I absolutely support a simple message of good news to the world.

However, resilience against the work of the enemy comes through maturity. We see this in the natural: children are not left to fend for themselves. Even nature knows to protect its little ones. And the protectors are the immature are the mature. Not only are they typically older and wiser, but they also share a physical bond: the protectors tend to be the fathers and mothers of the babes.

"..to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ"

This is the great sin of the church: they have not focused on the maturity of the believer. The leadership is to and will be to blame for the great falling away because they did not prepare the children. They were content with numbers and the income that comes from enrollment. (As an aside: the final trap of the enemy is a financial one: you cannot buy or sell without supporting the beast. If the church leadership is already corrupted by the lure of money what chance do the people under their care have to resist the evil one during his final campaign!

Even so, regarding grace, the people are taught the child's version of grace (unmerited favor) but are not taught how to walk in it, exist in it, or how God leverages grace for our benefit.

God's grace is shown as unmerited favor, for sure, but grace is primarily how God accomplishes His work.
So, grace can be shown as a man given to new believers (like Paul)
...as the authority of Christ to keep believers from the enemy
...as the goodness of God shown in His plan for men
...as the right necessary to receive good things from God
etc.

The church, by and large, has restricted grace to the salvation to go to heaven message simply because that's all they know how to teach. But it is much more. And knowing the more is a requirement for growing up into Christ.

I agree with what you say here and to season it a bit more, i have realized that the Catholic Church has left a bad taste for many Americans or other Western nations when they want to talk about The Church.

 

[Aaron56]

I agree with what you say here and to season it a bit more, i have realized that the Catholic Church has left a bad taste for many Americans or other Western nations when they want to talk about The Church.

Sure. I was mostly referencing the Evangelical/Independent Church. But I agree with you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I mean... do they not?

Redemption seems kinda like a central theme of the Gospel... like, it's main theme, and entire purpose.

“Redemption seems kinda like a central theme”

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Aaron56]

“Redemption seems kinda like a central theme”

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Totally.

I think people are taught "you are redeemed from Hell" since the outcome of the inherent sin nature is condemnation. So it's an end-stage thing.

But they never stop to ask: for what are we redeemed? or "What's the purpose of salvation beyond not going to Hell?" Leaders are content to maintain a message that keeps the pews full of babies. Babies don't ask the tough questions.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Totally.

I think people are taught "you are redeemed from Hell" since the outcome of the inherent sin nature is condemnation. So it's an end-stage thing.

But they never stop to ask: for what are we redeemed? or "What's the purpose of salvation beyond not going to Hell?" Leaders are content to maintain a message that keeps the pews full of babies. Babies don't ask the tough questions.

Yes the problem is babes never bear fruit like mature fruit trees they never get fertilized prined watered

 

[Burn1986]

Yes. You're right. But I also believe God gave me a strong sense of right and wrong. When Moses saw that the Israelites were worshipping the Golden Calf, he broke the tablets ('cause the law had been broken). Was he right to be angry? Was he right to tell the Levites to take every person who participated in this (people whom the Levites loved) and put them to the sword? How mean! How ungracious!

No. They were an infection that needed to be purged!

I'm not calling for such behavior now. But God is not mocked!

You know you’ll never win on here. These guys live to debate this stuff for days months years

 

[Mem]

The Degrees of Sin debate does make me laugh tho.
I view it as going along something like this...

I got a little tan while I was out, but it looks like acquired 3rd degree burns, Ha! serves you right!

My reference to David claiming, "Against you, and only you, Lord, have I sinned," puts sin into its proper perspective. Whether fibbing, or mass murdering, your sin is against God.
How can anyone take sinning against God "lightly"?

 

[montana123]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

I believe people that do terrible things offending people such as the behavior of people you mentioned rarely change, and accept the truth for their behavior is too terrible.

But when they get caught, and face prison time, or the death penalty, then they want to be saved.

They go their whole lives with vile, and disgusting behavior, and when they get caught now they want to be saved.

But if they go to prison I believe they want to be saved for selfish reasons like get their sentence reduced, or to find favor with the guards.

And if they get the death penalty they probably try to get their sentence reduced, or to please a family member with the attitude see I am not that bad, or they want to accept salvation but they have doubt about it but they do not want to take the chance that it could be true so they say they want to be saved.

But that is not faith for we cannot have doubt about it, and accept salvation because it may be true, but we have to believe it is true for sure.

With their terrible behavior and them not wanting to be saved before they got caught God probably turned them over to a reprobate mind before they were caught.

I do not know but I kind of doubt that they are saved for they do not care to change but when they get caught then they want to change.

They cared nothing about the truth prior to getting caught, and now they want salvation.

 

[montana123]

How do you feel about the Apostle Paul? He was a serial killer.

But Paul did not do it out of pleasure in a sick way but he thought he was doing the will of God by going against the Church for he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

He said he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees being more zealous of the traditions of his fathers.

He did not blaspheme against God, but against the Son, the man Christ Jesus, which there is forgiveness for that.

What he did was wrong but he thought he was doing the will of God according to the Old Testament by getting rid of heresy, and false prophets, until Jesus turned him to Him on the road to Damascus.

 

[Cameron143]

But Paul did not do it out of pleasure in a sick way but he thought he was doing the will of God by going against the Church for he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

He said he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees being more zealous of the traditions of his fathers.

He did not blaspheme against God, but against the Son, the man Christ Jesus, which there is forgiveness for that.

What he did was wrong but he thought he was doing the will of God according to the Old Testament by getting rid of heresy, and false prophets, until Jesus turned him to Him on the road to Damascus.

He murdered people, yet God still had mercy on Him. That's the only point. But atrocities are often the result of religious fervor. There were those who engaged in the slave trade who considered slavery a kindness to slaves. The perversions of men are only exceeded by the grace of God. PTL.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But Paul did not do it out of pleasure in a sick way but he thought he was doing the will of God by going against the Church for he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

He said he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees being more zealous of the traditions of his fathers.

He did not blaspheme against God, but against the Son, the man Christ Jesus, which there is forgiveness for that.

What he did was wrong but he thought he was doing the will of God according to the Old Testament by getting rid of heresy, and false prophets, until Jesus turned him to Him on the road to Damascus.

Im not sure Paul was a serial killer I thinks someone’s off target

 

[BillG]

Is not all sin equal apart from the unforgivable sin in the eyes of God?

Whilst all sin is equal they have different consequences.
All sin leads to death therefore it's equal?

 

[BillG]

Corrie Ten Boom meets German guard from concentration camp.

https://guideposts.org/positive-living/guideposts-classics-corrie-ten-boom-forgiveness/

 

[sawdust]

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

Then don't. It's your loss, not Jeffery's or anyone else who repents.

 

[Evmur]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

this is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin. God will save the very worse sinners, in fact there is no difference between the worse sinners and YOU or me or anybody else. The sins were in us ... just not committed yet. And the reason, the only reason, they had not been committed was because of God's grace. The very grace you rail against.

Take God's word for it, you are awful as to your natural person, There is no good thing dwelling in you that is in your flesh.