The Problem With Grace

[FollowerofShiloh]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

God told the Israel people, Let's Reason this out.

So let's use Reason for this answer.

Bottom line, every human being is a sinner. Most have never committed murder by the physical and literal act but they have been mad enough where they could do harm in their minds which many times leads to death but classified as murder. That goes for all sins. People might not physically and literally cheat on their spouse but they might commit that sin in their mind when thinking of other people than their spouse. What we THINK is many times worse than what we do because we don't do it but only think it.

The ultimate truth here, where the pedal hits the metal, the bottom line fact, HEAVEN is FULL of BAD People who do not deserve it but got saved and was rewarded it.

King David, whose lineage that GOD chose for the Messiah, Jesus Christ to come from, he was a Rapist, Adulterer, Murderer.
He saw Bathsheba bathing, had his guards bring her to his palace, forced himself on her, got her pregnant, killed her husband. And Jesus comes from his bloodline.

And God even said about David, [who raped, committed adultery, got Bathsheba pregnant, and killed her husband] that David was a man after God's own heart. That means David was a righteous man.

Heaven, is full of bad people who got saved.

And this bad person [(me)] <--- now saved, is planning on being there one day soon

 

[Eli1]

God told the Israel people, Let's Reason this out.

So let's use Reason for this answer.

Bottom line, every human being is a sinner. Most have never committed murder by the physical and literal act but they have been mad enough where they could do harm in their minds which many times leads to death but classified as murder. That goes for all sins. People might not physically and literally cheat on their spouse but they might commit that sin in their mind when thinking of other people than their spouse. What we THINK is many times worse than what we do because we don't do it but only think it.

The ultimate truth here, where the pedal hits the metal, the bottom line fact, HEAVEN is FULL of BAD People who do not deserve it but got saved and was rewarded it.

King David, whose lineage that GOD chose for the Messiah, Jesus Christ to come from, he was a Rapist, Adulterer, Murderer.
He saw Bathsheba bathing, had his guards bring her to his palace, forced himself on her, got her pregnant, killed her husband. And Jesus comes from his bloodline.

And God even said about David, [who raped, committed adultery, got Bathsheba pregnant, and killed her husband] that David was a man after God's own heart. That means David was a righteous man.

Heaven, is full of bad people who got saved.

And this bad person [(me)] <--- now saved, is planning on being there one day soon

My friend, your understanding of the Bible is very similar to what i was taught.
We differ a bit on Salvation but let me ask you a simple question.

You have your understanding of Salvation. Where do other people go if they don't follow your understanding?
Heaven? Hell?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

My friend, your understanding of the Bible is very similar to what i was taught.
We differ a bit on Salvation but let me ask you a simple question.

You have your understanding of Salvation. Where do other people go if they don't follow your understanding?
Heaven? Hell?

In the most general sense of the term "to Believe" who Jesus is, what He says would simply cause anyone but demons to follow and obey Jesus. And those are 3 things listed as doing the "Father's Will." So as assured as it may sound, doctrines will vary, interpretations will never be fully correct, understanding of the Holy Word of God will never be achieved, but we all can "Believe." And if that belief leads a person to spend their remaining days trying to be more like Jesus. Even if they're wrong about everything else in the Bible. They are miles ahead apart from those who deny and reject who Jesus claims to be.

I always remember this one constant more than anything else when dealing with people in general.

The more we know and understand, the more we are held accountable and responsible for to share and teach. I love what I know but wished I could be judged by those who only know enough to believe in Jesus so they have accepted Him into their life.

We sit here and discuss things and it causes us to learn and understand more. That means we are held accountable for this deeper understanding. It means we have no excuses like someone new to Christ. It means God expects more from us. And if people do not place that as a burden upon them self to share and teach they have abused this knowledge.

If the numbers are correct and there are really about 2 billion people claiming to be saved, then us here on these forums, other forums across the world, pastors, teachers, theologians, scholars that make up less than 5% total are responsible for sharing what we know because we know so much more than the average follower of God. I spend half my time trying to get people to read their Bible away from when I preach. And when I teach I have to spend way too much time explaining things because they lack so much from not studying on their own. So us with knowledge have a great responsibility.

The issue here with this knowledge gets blurred by doctrine. The Reformed believe God does everything. They know 100 verses extremely well and have no idea about the rest of 30,000 verses in the Bible. Do I want them teaching my people I am responsible for? Absolutely NOT!! And this is the problem because they are Not teaching anyone because their idealism isn't about sharing but about tearing down other doctrine. So that leads so many people at the stage of babes in Christ. And that leaves people like us to be responsible to pick up that slack. I thank God we are judged on an individual basis.

But to go back to your question.
Anyone who believes and asks Jesus to be Lord, God, Savior is most definitely saved.

 

[Eli1]

In the most general sense of the term "to Believe" who Jesus is, what He says would simply cause anyone but demons to follow and obey Jesus. And those are 3 things listed as doing the "Father's Will." So as assured as it may sound, doctrines will vary, interpretations will never be fully correct, understanding of the Holy Word of God will never be achieved, but we all can "Believe." And if that belief leads a person to spend their remaining days trying to be more like Jesus. Even if they're wrong about everything else in the Bible. They are miles ahead apart from those who deny and reject who Jesus claims to be.

I always remember this one constant more than anything else when dealing with people in general.

The more we know and understand, the more we are held accountable and responsible for to share and teach. I love what I know but wished I could be judged by those who only know enough to believe in Jesus so they have accepted Him into their life.

We sit here and discuss things and it causes us to learn and understand more. That means we are held accountable for this deeper understanding. It means we have no excuses like someone new to Christ. It means God expects more from us. And if people do not place that as a burden upon them self to share and teach they have abused this knowledge.

If the numbers are correct and there are really about 2 billion people claiming to be saved, then us here on these forums, other forums across the world, pastors, teachers, theologians, scholars that make up less than 5% total are responsible for sharing what we know because we know so much more than the average follower of God. I spend half my time trying to get people to read their Bible away from when I preach. And when I teach I have to spend way too much time explaining things because they lack so much from not studying on their own. So us with knowledge have a great responsibility.

The issue here with this knowledge gets blurred by doctrine. The Reformed believe God does everything. They know 100 verses extremely well and have no idea about the rest of 30,000 verses in the Bible. Do I want them teaching my people I am responsible for? Absolutely NOT!! And this is the problem because they are Not teaching anyone because their idealism isn't about sharing but about tearing down other doctrine. So that leads so many people at the stage of babes in Christ. And that leaves people like us to be responsible to pick up that slack. I thank God we are judged on an individual basis.

But to go back to your question.
Anyone who believes and asks Jesus to be Lord, God, Savior is most definitely saved.

Amen my brother, i told you that i feel like i've known you my whole life. What you say is 100% correct and it's also my understanding.

One major difference from my teachings is this whole notion of presenting yourself appropriately to others, as you've said in another thread about "Being Graceful" which is this topic itself since we are Ambassadors as you've said, while showing a complete lack of grace when we try to position ourselves as "VIPS" if we are not careful on how we say certain concepts to other non-belivers or in the case of the OP where she is searching and she's not being heard.
In my teachings, we are not focused on a future reward as most of the Reformed do, we are focused on the NOW.
So i don't say "I'm Saved" while i'm also 100% ready to die for God. I just can't cross that line because it would mean that i would have to condemn billions of other people to Hell, somethings which i cannot do and i don't want to do. That's reserved only for the Almighty.
The Kingdom of God is now, so i don't live in the future by categorizing myself as "Saved" but i say "Thank you Jesus for allowing me to know you now and have mercy on me a sinner".
So, i don't need God later. I need God now like i need oxygen to breathe.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Amen my brother, i told you that i feel like i've known you my whole life. What you say is 100% correct and it's also my understanding.

One major difference from my teachings is this whole notion of presenting yourself appropriately to others, as you've said in another thread about "Being Graceful" which is this topic itself since we are Ambassadors as you've said, while showing a complete lack of grace when we try to position ourselves as "VIPS" if we are not careful on how we say certain concepts to other non-belivers or in the case of the OP where she is searching and she's not being heard.
In my teachings, we are not focused on a future reward as most of the Reformed do, we are focused on the NOW.
So i don't say "I'm Saved" while i'm also 100% ready to die for God. I just can't cross that line because it would mean that i would have to condemn billions of other people to Hell, somethings which i cannot do and i don't want to do. That's reserved only for the Almighty.
The Kingdom of God is now, so i don't live in the future by categorizing myself as "Saved" but i say "Thank you Jesus for allowing me to know you now and have mercy on me a sinner".
So, i don't need God later. I need God now like i need oxygen to breathe.

We are always talking from a viewpoint of "Spiritual Growth." We are not concerned if you just found Jesus or have been walking with Him for 100 years we are speaking to the point where you are currently existing at in your spiritual identification in God.

My biggest battle with meeting new people are dealing with things they've been told from people who should just be keeping their mouths SHUT.
One example of that is The Reformed say things like, God "did not force" anyone to be saved but then in the next breathe say they "had NO choice" in the matter. When I hear that I turn and walk away. They just cut their own throat and shows what an ignorant doctrine they follow. No sinner in their right mind wants that.

So outside of dealing with people having false understanding from ignorant knowledge I am dealing with people who have a void in their life and they are trying to fill it with drugs, alcohol, entertainment, physical activity, everything but God. They want someone who is sincere and not trying to deceive them with double talk. So when I talk to them I tell them about who Jesus was, what He did, how He wants to help them, and that today He is King and Lord on His Throne. I make sure they know Jesus is Alive and Most Powerful who is the only One that bring healing, repair, meaning to their life and mine. I try to avoid anything about being dead unless it's the concept of being dead to self because you are alive Spiritually.

 

[Aaron56]

We are always talking from a viewpoint of "Spiritual Growth." We are not concerned if you just found Jesus or have been walking with Him for 100 years we are speaking to the point where you are currently existing at in your spiritual identification in God.

My biggest battle with meeting new people are dealing with things they've been told from people who should just be keeping their mouths SHUT.
One example of that is The Reformed say things like, God "did not force" anyone to be saved but then in the next breathe say they "had NO choice" in the matter. When I hear that I turn and walk away. They just cut their own throat and shows what an ignorant doctrine they follow. No sinner in their right mind wants that.

So outside of dealing with people having false understanding from ignorant knowledge I am dealing with people who have a void in their life and they are trying to fill it with drugs, alcohol, entertainment, physical activity, everything but God. They want someone who is sincere and not trying to deceive them with double talk. So when I talk to them I tell them about who Jesus was, what He did, how He wants to help them, and that today He is King and Lord on His Throne. I make sure they know Jesus is Alive and Most Powerful who is the only One that bring healing, repair, meaning to their life and mine. I try to avoid anything about being dead unless it's the concept of being dead to self because you are alive Spiritually.

Reminds me that one verse: “To whom much is given, much is required.” -Uncle Ben to Peter Parker.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Reminds me that one verse: “To whom much is given, much is required.” -Uncle Ben to Peter Parker.

Amen, that's exactly how it could be interpreted

 

[Aaron56]

Amen, that's exactly how it could be interpreted

It was actually a very inaccurate quote meant to be ironic. Your compliment shows your kindness. And I’m now more certain than ever that I’m funnier in my own head.

 

[Deuteronomy]

I think I understand your angst over other people doing others wrong as said about that in Pedeophiles and rapists cases. God is definitely against people taking away other peoples free will. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over the people there, that would not allow free choice. The same with the Egyptians, would not allow free choice.

Hello Homwardbound, I noticed the above the other day but forgot to ask you about it. It's certainly a different twist or thought about the reason for Sodom's destruction, especially since the people of Sodom seemed best described (to me, at least) as those who freely chose to do whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

So, if you have a moment, please elaborate a bit on this, of God's choice to destroy Sodom, and of His choice to send plagues on the Egyptians due to the people's (or Pharoah's) sin restricting free will.

Thanks

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

 

[Adstar]

I'm going to assume that you're 50-60 years old and you've done a couple of Salvation discussions in your life.
I am also 50 years old and i've also done a couple of Salvation discussions in my life.

The questions that the OP is asking are deep questions that require search and may be able to find the answers in another denomination, not the Protestant denomination.

There is the truth... People can go out and find a cult that will be tailored to their desires in regard to what the will of God should be.. In her case she desires a God that shall not forgive murderers or the other examples she gives.. If she goes out looking for a church that preaches that these kinds of sins are unforgivable sins then she will probably find a denomination that teaches such things. And she will end up going to the same place in eternity that others who believed in a lie are going to go.. So looking for a church that gives one the answers they want is a sure fire way to end up getting the answers that lead to their second death.. Better to have FAITH /TRUST in the God that IS and accept He is going to forgive murderers and other serious sinners..

 

[Adstar]

Of course not. In terms of understanding Salvation from a East Perspective and West Perspective it's like North Pole and South Pole.
The whole understanding of Salvation in the Eastern Church is understood as the Theology of Theosis which in plain English means that nobody knows where anyone is destined to be (Heaven or Hell).

So, by reading the OP, who to me looks like she's tired with the answers she's been getting from the Protestant Churches her whole life, she is looking for other answers.
So, Theosis answers that.

If the ""eastern perspective"" actually teaches this then they are not teaching the truth..

(Hebrews 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

I have Confidence and Hope because i am holding fast to the Word of God that believing Jesus and trusting in His atonement has won for me eternal life with Him.. It saddens me that people caught up in the ""eastern perspective"" do not have firm hope in the Word of God and His Atonement.. No wonder such churches end up leading people into works bondage to their religous elites..

 

[Magenta]

The whole understanding of Salvation in the Eastern Church is understood as the Theology of Theosis
which in plain English means that nobody knows where anyone is destined to be (Heaven or Hell).

Do you mean nobody knows where anyone else is going? Or that we cannot know where we are going? .

As an aside here, I find too much emphasis put on "going to heaven." Our ever after life will be on the new Earth.

As it is, those whose faith is in what Christ accomplished for us are already seated with Him in the heavenly realms.

 

[Mem]

There's probably a lot of people who believe that their sin only caused Jesus just a wee bit of discomfort, like maybe a mosquito bite and certainly no more than a nasty splinter.

 

[Burn1986]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

Have you seen that mivie “All dogs go to Heaven”?

 

[Burn1986]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

Hey, so you’re 30 years old! I just put that together - saved at 13, and been a Christian for 17 years. Wow, I get it 👍

 

[Eli1]

There is the truth... People can go out and find a cult that will be tailored to their desires in regard to what the will of God should be.. In her case she desires a God that shall not forgive murderers or the other examples she gives.. If she goes out looking for a church that preaches that these kinds of sins are unforgivable sins then she will probably find a denomination that teaches such things. And she will end up going to the same place in eternity that others who believed in a lie are going to go.. So looking for a church that gives one the answers they want is a sure fire way to end up getting the answers that lead to their second death.. Better to have FAITH /TRUST in the God that IS and accept He is going to forgive murderers and other serious sinners..

If the ""eastern perspective"" actually teaches this then they are not teaching the truth..

(Hebrews 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

I have Confidence and Hope because i am holding fast to the Word of God that believing Jesus and trusting in His atonement has won for me eternal life with Him.. It saddens me that people caught up in the ""eastern perspective"" do not have firm hope in the Word of God and His Atonement.. No wonder such churches end up leading people into works bondage to their religous elites..

It sounds like you live in a bubble, which is exactly the thing that the OP is tired with.
She says one thing and you answer with another thing without addressing the question and making it a right/wrong issue without realizing that you might be wrong too in a topic about Grace.

 

[Eli1]

Do you mean nobody knows where anyone else is going? Or that we cannot know where we are going? .

As an aside here, I find too much emphasis put on "going to heaven." Our ever after life will be on the new Earth.

As it is, those whose faith is in what Christ accomplished for us are already seated with Him in the heavenly realms.

Sorry Magenta , what I meant there is that the understanding of salvation from the Eastern perspective is that The Believer does not and should not make judgment calls about folks going to Heaven or Hell.
That’s what I meant.

 

[Evmur]

Let me get this out here. I've been a Christian for 13 years, since I was 17 years old. I was raised in the faith. I know my Bible. I had a good loving family. Nothing traumatic. Pretty decent life.

However, one consistent thing I have a problem with in my faith that I've never been able to get over is God's so-called "grace." I don't think people know the implications of it. The logic is that we're all sinners. Nothing is unforgiveable. The problem I have with this is that it means the most evil of monsters (I refuse to refer to them as human beings, they've forfeited that right) such as rapists, serial killers, and pedophiles have a shot at being in heaven.

And you know what? That is NOT a heaven I wanna be in! I see all these people praising Jeffrey Dahmer's so-called "conversion," and it is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!

I do NOT wanna worship a God who endorses this!!! And don't gimme that "oh, we're all sinners!" NOT ALL SIN IS EQUAL, AND EVERY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWS THAT!!!

Dear me

I have been such a one as you describe as an evil monster, my heart was black as coal. And so was YOURS. You are kidding yourself if you do not believe you are guilty.

It is the nature of man that is evil, not what he does. How many, many times when I hear of atrocities I must say "there but for God's grace go I"

Oh stoppit

What are you wishing upon people if you wish them to be in eternal misery? You who say you hate murder. You do not know yourself.

 

[homwardbound]

Hello Homwardbound, I noticed the above the other day but forgot to ask you about it. It's certainly a different twist or thought about the reason for Sodom's destruction, especially since the people of Sodom seemed best described (to me, at least) as those who freely chose to do whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

So, if you have a moment, please elaborate a bit on this, of God's choice to destroy Sodom, and of His choice to send plagues on the Egyptians due to the people's (or Pharoah's) sin restricting free will.

Thanks

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

homwardbound said:
I think I understand your angst over other people doing others wrong as said about that in Pedeophiles and rapists cases. God is definitely against people taking away other peoples free will. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over the people there, that would not allow free choice. The same with the Egyptians, would not allow free choice.

Seeing, when Lot was in that place with the righteous angels there. There were, those people at the door, they were there to do whatever they wanted to do with those Angels. Holy as Lot saw, stood in trust to God, they were God's Angels, tried, the best of his knowledge, keeping in reverence to God, to not have them do as they continued to do to others as whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. no respect of persons, none. people that take away free will from people, God hates this.
therefore not even Ten were found righteous. The scripture states God, heard the cries of the people in the unfairness of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Egypt also, therefore God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and freed the first chosen, that God chose to be the first chosen, that over time reveals to me, we all sin as they continued in that too (no flesh pleases God) None, but Son Jesus did this, only! for us to get given his risen life from Jesus's Father to us in believe from us, to all those that will not quit.. Whether first chosen or not. Yes God hates sin. Sin to God is not letting others have their free choice as God has given. Yet the need to have Laws is needed for the people that take free choice for granted and by Law we are to use it to stop the abusing of free choice of others doing whatever they want to others without care for them. The Law is in place for the unbelievers of God, the Father of the risen Son Jesus. (Gal 3:19-26)
= God
Righteously destroyed it. Therefore I see to not condemn anyone, not to judge anyone, yet enforce Law. The Law is still in place for the Law breakers to turn to God in repentance and be freed to see new and not harm anyone else ever again. Since by Son I am reconciled in his death for me to ask for the new life to get given me to lead me in truth of God for all. Taking away no one else's free will. Yet upholding Law as good. This is in place to stop people from harming other people, people that do not believe God, and do as they did in Sodom and Gomorrah and Egypt as well. They gave no respect to the Hebrews, Israelites, none. They abused them as slaves. So God freed them. as they would not quit depending on God to save them. Now it did take a long time for God to answer, giving free choice to all. As many as do take for granted this free choice and use it as abuse to others. to get whatever they want with no conscious. God gives time for us all to repent and see to not harm anyone else ever again in love and mercy given us first by Son for us in the resurrected Son. Where new life is given to us to abide in love and mercy as given us.
Thank God for the free choice, and see Romans 2:1-4 to see to not despise God in his forgiving us the people, by not forgiving all as God did by Son for us all. To see not to get or be haughty over it as is going on presently today by others. A good example to not be proud is (Luke 18:9-14)
Now after the cross to say thank you, to God for Son as we are now reconciled (2 Cor. 5:17-20). Then to say to God I need to be taught by you, no one else, how to not harm others over troubles I have gotten in, might be in and might get in the future also.
I need contentment Father in all things good or bad that happen to me and others around me? I do not know how you will do this. I just know you will, Thank you in advance for this truth to permeate through me from you. As I see this you do. you carry out your promises, as many stop believing you, after going. through troubles, as revealed in your allegory of the farmer planting seeds, and it falls by the way side, having no deep soil
Thank you for the rake to rake over the seed to your fertile soil in love and mercy given me to spread out to all and not force anyone to believe you. Thank you
The message of reconciliation to all from God Father through Son that is risen as proof of acceptance to this thankful truth to not be taken for granted and used as was used wrong in Matthew 18:24-35 by that person that got forgiven by God first. Therefore I now forgive, because I am forgiven and love first upfront, because by God I am forgiven in Son, to be new, born again by God to carry on the work Jesus started in love and mercy to all (John 4:23-24) healed in Spirit and Truth of God for me and y'all to
Love, God's Love of 1 Cor 13:4-7 won, wins continually and there is no law against this love of God for us to get engrafted in it too, thank you

 

[Magenta]

Sorry Magenta , what I meant there is that the understanding of salvation from the Eastern perspective
is that The Believer does not and should not make judgment calls about folks going to Heaven or Hell.
That’s what I meant.

No worries Eli, and thank you for clarifying! .