The Post Tribulation Rapture

[GaryA]

Gary I really don't know what your looking for

Please see post #166.

 

[BenjaminN]

Brother, you again avoided the objections. You continued to assume a thing you call Messianic Judaism. But that is what we discuss. You should have brought scripture for your first three statements. The scripture you brought, you added parenthesis to, to give it a sense that is not found if the parenthesis were not there.

Let me offer a simple solution.

1. A man is offspring to Adam. God made, of one man and one blood - all men. So we have the Gentiles, or, The Nations
2. Of these men, God took a Syrian, Abraham, and from his loins made a great Nation - Israel (via Isaac, via Jacob). Paul calls them "his brethren according to the flesh
3. Of Israel, God took One Man and made a New Man out of Him. This Man Jesus was NOT born of the "One blood" that all other men were born of. He was born by the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35)
4. Out of Jesus, God brought forth a New People who had their origin IN Christ via a birth from the Holy Spirit

According to the Law of "KINDS" in Genesis 1:11-12, the above constitute THREE DIFFERENT KINDS of men:

1. Gentiles out of Adam
2. Israel out of Jacob
3. The Church out of the Holy Spirit

There is no such thing in the whole Bible as "Messianic Judaism". It is an invention of man. It has no part, nor substance in the genealogies of the Bible. Consider this. If a man is a Jew and he suddenly believes in and embraces Jesus Christ - what happens to him? He is born again and becomes a son of God. He is a New Creature and the past is wiped out (2nd Cor.5:17). AND he is transferred from Israel to the Church because HE HAS A NEW BEGINNING, OR ORIGIN. He has LEFT THE OLD. And so Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 unequivocally say that in this New Creature, there is NO JEW and NO GENTILE.

Where then is the class of man, called by other men, "Messianic Jew"? It just doesn't exist, and is never mentioned in the Bible.

There is no such thing as Christian in the whole bible. It is all about different views of Judaism. Paul was called to be from the Nazarene 'sect' of Judaism (the same Judaic 'sect' of Jesus / Yeshua and his disciples), which had Messianic views, hence Messianic Judaism of the 'sect' of the Nazarenes ( as opposed to the Judaic 'parties' of the Pharisees and Sadducees ).


Acts 24 (ESV)

1 And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. 2 And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying: "Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, 3 in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. 4 But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

 

[GaryA]

There is no such thing as Christian in the whole bible.

Acts 11:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

[BenjaminN]

My bad. I apologize. It should read 2nd Cor.5:17. May I as you to read that in light of my answer, and come back to me. Thank you.

So without the parenthesis you object to, please read literal the house of Ephraim/Israel and house of Judah, now one renewed Israel under Israel's King from Judah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, with one new Messianic ( Christian in the Greek ) Judaic covenant. Please note that these texts ONLY apply to Jews / Judah still in their partial hardening, AND to those from Ephraim scattered among the Gentiles, partially without knowledge of their identity, but out of their partial hardening:

Let the scriptures talk to you if you consider yourself to be of Judah's King, Messiah's ( or Christ's in the Greek ) Gentile Ephraim, and you love God's laws - his 613 mitzvot - written on our hearts and minds with the blood of our Judah King, Jesus' / Yeshua's under his new covenant. If you do not love them, you are of the Gentiles, that are not of the Ephraim Gentiles, and its ok, Acts 15:19-20 applies to you, and your nation statehood identity. The King of Judah, Messiah's ( or Christ's in the Greek ) Gentile Ephraim are still physically among the Gentiles, split from our still parially hardened unbelieving brother Judah (although they are becoming less hardened day-by-day, see OneForIsrael until Zechariah 12:10 will become to its fulness ), scattered physically, but spiritually already gathered from among the Gentiles, by our King from Judah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, otherwise it will not talk to you:


Acts 15 (ESV)

19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.


2 Corinthians 5 (ESV)


17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 35 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."


When it comes into fruition, Judah will embrace Ephraim among the Gentiles, and allow Ephraim to make Aliyah, because they would also believe in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach, as the Judah King of Israel:

Zechariah 12 (ESV)

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

 

[GaryA]

"Yes - I believe that is what that verse clearly indicates."

Thank you - for your simple, straight-forward, confident - not beat-around-the-bush - honest answer.

 

[BenjaminN]

Again, your language is difficult. In one sentence you maintain that Israel is obsolete. Yet I see them still being persecuted, and I see them maintaining a National identity in the Land they won back in 1948. They forbid preaching abut Jesus Messiah. They are TWO DIFFERENT entities.

The grammar of Hebrews 8:13 is past continuous for the Old Covenant, and future continuous for the New Covenant. At what point will the one replace the other? I will point to the inspired record in Jeremiah 31:31-33. It is "IN THAT DAY"! What day? The Day that Judah and Israel become one nation again! And WHICH Judah and which Israel is meant? THOSE OF THE FATHERS WHO CAME OUT OF EGYPT! That is, it is the "obsolete Israel" that gets the New Covenant!

And just to confirm it, you are correct. Jesus Messiah is KING of Israel. But He is HEAD of the Church. Israel, a NATION, born of Jacob, wished for a KING. The Church, the Body of Jesus, is in an organic union. One is the HEAD and the other the BODY. A Nation gets King, a Body has a Head.

Jeremiah 31:31-33. It is "IN THAT DAY"! What day? It actually reads "Behold, the days are coming" - When the new covenant of sins being forgiven came into effect, at the resurrection of Judah King Yeshua ha'Mashiach, formerly identityless Ephraim among the Gentiles acknowledge Him, Judah not yet, until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, ie. the Gospel of the Kingdom of Yeshua ha'Mashiach has reached the whole world - whereto Ephraim was scattered 2700+ years ago. Then when all of formerly identityless Ephraim heard the good news, Judah will accept Judah King Yeshua ha'Maschiach, and be reunited under Him with their Torah loving, Messiah believing brother, Ephraim scattered among the Gentiles.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

 

[GaryA]

Read the order of events in Matthew 24, the RAPTURE is right at the end in verse 40 (accompanying the next and final return of Christ / Messiah, which is immediately AFTER the GREAT TRIBULATION, and the GREAT TRIBULATION follows the GOSPEL PROCLAIMED TO ALL THE NATIONS in verse 14, so between verse 14 and 40, the end of this earth as it will come is portrayed).

Note that you stopped on vs 40.

I am pretty sure he did not mean to leave out the rest of the verses - as he was making a point about what precedes it. He was merely pointing to the 'start' of the verses by saying 'verse 40'.

Also note that the next few verses are the pretrib rapture

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is merely an extended explanation of the Second Coming and Rapture indicated in verse 30 and 31.

You guys are never going to understand the timeline-of-things as long as you have a prophecy is written in a verse-by-verse-is-chronological way type of thinking.

 

[BenjaminN]

May I point out what that verse says. There are THREE gatherings in Revelation.

1. The armies of the beast are GATHERED to Jezreel to be annihilated (Rev.16:13-16)
2. The Church is to be GATHERED to Christ in the clouds and the air (Rev.14:1-5)
3. Israel, as per the prophets of Israel, is to be GATHERED back to her Land.

Which one is meant in verse 31? The context will tell. Matthew 24:1-31:

1. The Temple is a Jewish building and center of their religion
2. The Temple is in Jerusalem - chief City of the Jewish religion
3. False Christ's is a Jewish problem. As they rejected the Messiah, they still look for Him to come. Christians don't
4. Wars and rumors of wars could apply to anybody
5. Famine and Pestilences could apply to anybody
6. Being hated for Jesus's name seems at first a Christian problem. But the most prolific excuse for the Western world/Roman Church to kill Jews is the accusation that they killed Jesus. This is a Jewish Problem
7. "Sorrows" apply to the world as the Great Tribulation, but to Israel as "Jacob's Trouble. It is a Jewish Problem
8. False PROPHETS is Jewish Problem. The Church has the problem of false TEACHERS
9. Those who "SEE" the Abomination of Desolation will have to live in and around Jerusalem - Jews
10. The prophet Daniel is a Jewish prophet
11. "Him who is in Judea" will be Jews
12. Having to flee on a Sabbath is a Jewish problem. Their Law regulates the distance they may walk
    False Christ's and False prophets are mentioned a second time - BOTH Jewish problems
13. Israel are not raptured. Their first sight of Jesus will be while they stand on earth and look upward where lightening is
14. The carcasses and vultures are needed at Jezreel for the slaughter of Armageddon - 70 miles west of Jerusalem
15. A "sign" is required for the Jew (1st Cor.1.22). The Christian lives by faith
16. The Church rejoices when they see Jesus. It is the Jews that mourn

Even if some of these are not correct, the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OF THE CONTEXT indicates that the "elect" to be GATHERED in verse 31 ARE JEWS. The whole context leading up to the "gathering" is one of a mater of the JEWS. Then, TWO bits of proof still remain to be aired;

1. The "gathering of the elect" in Matthew 24:31 happens AFTER Jesus comes to earth from the clouds. The Church is Raptured while He is still IN the clouds (1st Thess.4:15-17)
2. Only Israel was scattered to the "four winds" (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6)

The "ELECT" of Matthew 24:31 is Israel - resurrected and gathered fro all nations under the sun and from heaven for those who have already been resurrected.

If you see the Jesus' / Yeshua's Church as being treated separate from Jesus' / Yeshua's Israel, and not ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY, how can one bridegroom have two brides - it does not make sense. And then you want to split the two brides for a thousand years Millenium Kingdom, where the one spends it on earth and the other in heaven - with the bridegroom where, on earth or in heaven?

Also Revelations 7:4 refers to the 144,000 to be from the 12 tribes of Israel, how will the same raptured 144,000 in Revelations 14:1-3 now only be the Church without Israel, if they are not ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY, renewed Israel Body in Christ?


Revelation 7 (ESV)

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:


Revelation 14 (ESV)

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

 

[BenjaminN]

Only the remnant elect Jew, that is chosen, will be grafted in.

Please remember that the term Jew, only applies to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi AND NOT TO THE TEN TRIBES OF EPHRAIM. People are mixing freely between the terminology between Jew, Israel, and Jacob as if the only means the other and only the other. The term Jew ( Judah ) specifically excludes Ephraim, awaiting among the Gentiles, for Judah to accept Yeshua ha'Mashiach as King.

 

[BenjaminN]

Please see post #166.

And that my brother GaryA proves Truth7t7, the OP's PostTrib? After means Post, "after the tribulation" means Post Tribulation? Do you want the OP to reconfirm his OP statement?

 

[TabinRivCA]

The church as a body is not full of people who are obedient.
They may try, and some will succeed better than others, but none can claim to be an obedient child of God

What obedient children?
Even if you could find ONE perfect person, (other then Jesus Christ) that person would still have the stain of Adams' sin attached to him.

Romans 3
both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:

“There is no righteous person, not even one;
11 There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
12 They have all turned aside, together they have become [i]corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The venom of [j]asps is under their lips”;
14 “Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And they have not known the way of peace.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

If your not obedient don't speak for others ie Billy Graham, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin and so forth. I don't think of myself as being disobedient, and of course if we goof for a minute, there's a thing called repentance, forgiveness and mercy. That doesn''t mean we're disobedient, just growing.

 

[GaryA]

And that my brother GaryA proves Truth7t7, the OP's PostTrib? Do you want the OP to reconfirm his OP statement?

I am not looking for people to say "I am post-trib."; rather, I am looking for people to simply acknowledge with a straight-forward answer that they understand the simple truth of what is clearly stated in Matthew 24:29 - as I have suggested in earlier posts.

If I had known it would be such an 'ordeal', I would have started a new thread; however, I thought it to be relevant to this thread.

 

[BenjaminN]

Acts 11:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Sorry I missed those three, thank you for correcting me.

So here goes the more accurate statement: There is 3 verses in the God's word mentioning the idea Christian, the other 31100 is all Messianic Judaism, which are termed Christianity nowadays. Maybe I might stand corrected on the verse count of number of Messianic Judaism verses as well, please feel free to verify.

 

[Blain]

The Post Trib Rapture, (Exact Same Event)

(Immediately After The Tribulation)

1.) Same Lord In The Clouds Of Heaven

2.) Same Trump

3.) Same Gathering/Resurrection

Dispensationalism Falsely Teaches Matthew 24:29-31 Applies Only To Jews, (A Lie)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Well at least our little debate inspired you to make a thread but again as I said to you before there is a clear distinction in the bible in regards to the old covanent new covanent who he was speaking to at that time ect.
However you also seem to make the mistake that this implies that it is a lie because you disagree with or don't understand it and this is where your folly is.

I have seen your posts on bible prophecy and from what I have seen you only see the first layer and only see what you yourself percieve to be truth and this also is a folly because in order to learn and understand the truth of a matter you have have a teachable heart the heart of a student, far to many hold so tightly to thier views that they will defend it until they are blue however this leaves no room to grow and learn it is the I am right you are wrong mentality
I also notice you don't seem to make threads to actually discuss anything you post your view and post scripture but the intent is clear that you are not doing so for actual discussion and learning rather to prove yourself right and cause debates that obviously create discord in disagreements and if you understand bible prophecy as much as you seem to think then you know how touchy of a subject bible prophecy is which you yourself seem to have little understanding in.

I know you will not heed my advice but I offer it anyways first stop trying to prove your beliefs and being a teacher pof truth because only when you are foremost a student are you then qualified to teach, second instead of trying to prrove your understand and view right instead try to prove it wrong and see how well it stands third instead of making threads that clearly cause discord make threads that are not about debating but to encourage build and help the church in all matters of the gospel and fourth stop holding so tightly to your own views and understanding so that if the truth is shown or spoken or taught to you then you will not remain blind and ignorant to it because sadly if you and others like this continue down such a path then you will think yourself wise when you are not and you will beleive you understand when you lack thereof and you will be a teacher when you need to be a student.

 

[BenjaminN]

I am pretty sure he did not mean to leave out the rest of the verses - as he was making a point about what precedes it. He was merely pointing to the 'start' of the verses by saying 'verse 40'.


This is merely an extended explanation of the Second Coming and Rapture indicated in verse 30 and 31.

You guys are never going to understand the timeline-of-things as long as you have a prophecy is written in a verse-by-verse-is-chronological way type of thinking.

Oh, so you do want to twist God's perfect, simple chronological ordering...

Verse 40 starts with, then, then means after something - so let's see what happened before verse 40, and now I'm quoting all of it at once, please read the book beginning to end, don't start at the end, put it at the beginning, or put the end in the middle, or so, or so - who told you to interpret the prophesy in that way. If you do not have a clear instruction to do it that way, stick to the order that is represented. You bullied Truth7t7 to "GRAMMATICAL" state what comes after the words in verse 29, now drink your own medicine, and realise that the content of verses 30 to 51 comes after verse 29 in Matthew 24, PS. use then to know the order of things: then means all stated before then will happen before that stated after then, in accordance with grammar.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 25 See, I have told you beforehand ( Do you think the Lord will play with the order of the text, if it was required to know this beforehand, plain and simple ). 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

 

[GaryA]

I am not looking for people to say "I am post-trib."; rather, I am looking for people to simply acknowledge with a straight-forward answer that they understand the simple truth of what is clearly stated in Matthew 24:29 - as I have suggested in earlier posts.

If I had known it would be such an 'ordeal', I would have started a new thread; however, I thought it to be relevant to this thread.

You might be surprised to discover just how many 'hoops' people would rather jump through than to simply acknowledge a simple truth found in a verse of scripture - rearrange their whole belief system if necessary so that they can "avoid" that simple truth in that verse of scripture.

(And, this is not "aimed" at Truth7t7.)

Pre-tribbers in particular are always asking post-tribbers:

"Why do you always mention Matthew 24:29? Why do you always bring up that verse?"

Well - the answer lies in the fact that - if you cannot acknowledge the simple truth about that verse, you may as well "hang-it-up" on End Times Prophecy - because, there is no way you are going to understand "the deeper things" if you cannot understand the simple things - such as is illustrated in that verse.

If a person cannot acknowledge that simple truth in that verse, they "don't stand a chance" in understanding what the Bible actually says about the End Times Scenario.

A lot more than most people realize occurs "after the tribulation"...

Pre-tribbers in particular think that everything 'End Times' occurs during the 'tribulation'.

The Bible tells us otherwise.

Anyone who can honestly acknowledge the simple truth in that verse --- has a much better opportunity for understanding the "bigger picture" of End Times prophecy.

I am asking the question:

"Who is willing to state that they understand the simple truth in that verse of scripture."

(And stand on it, for the truth that it is.)

 

[GaryA]

You bullied Truth7t7

It was not my intent to "bully" Truth7t7.

It is never my intent to "bully" anyone.

I regret and apologize if anything I post is ever taken that way.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

If your not obedient don't speak for others ie Billy Graham, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin and so forth. I don't think of myself as being disobedient, and of course if we goof for a minute, there's a thing called repentance, forgiveness and mercy. That doesn''t mean we're disobedient, just growing.

I certainly would not pick that line-up as "perfect"

 

[BenjaminN]

Well at least our little debate inspired you to make a thread but again as I said to you before there is a clear distinction in the bible in regards to the old covanent new covanent who he was speaking to at that time ect.
However you also seem to make the mistake that this implies that it is a lie because you disagree with or don't understand it and this is where your folly is.

I have seen your posts on bible prophecy and from what I have seen you only see the first layer and only see what you yourself percieve to be truth and this also is a folly ....

All our words directed to others point back to ourselves as well.

"I said to you before there is a clear distinction in the bible in regards to the old covanent new covanent who he was speaking to at that time":

The new covenant is written in the blood of Yeshua ha'Mashiach, it is with Israel and Judah, Israel is Ephraim believing in Yeshua scattered among the Gentiles, Judah is the Jews still partially hardened living currently in Zion as a nation without Yeshua ha'Mashiach and without their brother Israel / Ephraim. So Judah needs to come to the Messiah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, and Ephraim / Israel among the Gentiles ( even from beyond the rivers of Cush / Ethiopia / sub-Saharan Africa ), already believing in the Messiah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, needs to come to Zion to rejoin their brother Judah, that will not happen until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, ie. the gospel of the Kingdom has reached the whole of the world.


Zechariah 12 (ESV)

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.


Zephaniah 3 (ESV)

1 Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled, the oppressing city! 2 She listens to no voice; she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord; she does not draw near to her God. 9 "For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord. 10 From beyond the rivers of Cush my worshipers, the daughter of my dispersed ones, shall bring my offering. 11 "On that day you shall not be put to shame because of the deeds by which you have rebelled against me; for then I will remove from your midst your proudly exultant ones, and you shall no longer be haughty in my holy mountain. 12 But I will leave in your midst a people humble and lowly. They shall seek refuge in the name of the Lord, 13 those who are left in Israel; they shall do no injustice and speak no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue. For they shall graze and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." 14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." (COVENANT WRITTEN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN) 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (COVENANT WRITTEN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN) 35 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever." 37 Thus says the Lord: "If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord."

 

[GaryA]

Oh, so you do want to twist God's perfect, simple chronological ordering...

No - I think you have misunderstood what I said.

Verse 40 starts with, then, then means after something - so let's see what happened before verse 40, and now I'm quoting all of it at once, please read the book beginning to end, don't start at the end, put it at the beginning, or put the end in the middle, or so, or so - who told you to interpret the prophesy in that way. If you do not have a clear instruction to do it that way, stick to the order that is represented. You bullied Truth7t7 to "GRAMMATICAL" state what comes after the words in verse 29, now drink your own medicine, and realise that the content of verses 30 to 51 comes after verse 29 in Matthew 24, PS. use then to know the order of things: then means all stated before then will happen before that stated after then, in accordance with grammar.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 25 See, I have told you beforehand ( Do you think the Lord will play with the order of the text, if it was required to know this beforehand, plain and simple ). 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Did 'the end' come at the end of verse 14 - and then - everything in all of the verses after that - occur after 'the end'???

Did the full complete 'the end' come-and-go before the tribulation? (verse 21)

I am saying:

~ verse 29 - talks about everything that occurs between the 'tribulation' and verse 30 (please notice the 'And then' in verse 30)

~ verse 30 - talks about the Second Coming of Christ (when He "shows up")

~ verse 31 - talks about the Rapture

Verses 40-41 are specifically associated with the Rapture; however, it does not mean that no verse before it refers to the Rapture - as if the verses describe everything in strict chronological order. They do not.

In many places in the Bible, the text makes mention of something - and then - afterward - "re-visits" it again to give more detail.

~

The prophecy of the Olivet Discourse is NOT in chronological order - verse-by-verse.

Please see the small chart at the bottom of the page (below the large chart):

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html