The natural man

[ForestGreenCook]

Actually, I said Peter was "on the spot" - meaning that he was together with our Lord. He neither looked forward (in time) to Messiah, nor did he look backwards (in time) as we do. As to hindering our Lord Jesus' death, you propose a difficulty. Are we born again because of Christ's death? Or is it an act of the Holy Spirit in the spirit of a man (Jn.3:6)? The death of our Lord was for sin and sins - a work of atonement OUTSIDE of us. Being BORN is by FAITH in Jesus - a Person (Jn.1:12-13, 3:14-16).

But as to being born again, I tend to agree with you - based on John 7:39 and 20:22. But it raises a difficulty. Both Moses and Elijah, AND three of twelve Apostles were on the Mount of Transfiguration and our Lord Jesus calls that His Kingdom (Matt.16:28). To SEE the Kingdom, a man must be born again. Thus, Moses, Elijah and three Apostles must have been born again BEFORE Christ was risen. Even more difficult is that a man's lifetime is all the time he has to believe. Hebrews 9:27 gives the next event as judgment. Moses must have become born again before he died - some 1,500 years before Christ was raised from the dead. And even more difficult is that Moses must have been in RESURRECTION to be in the Kingdom because (i) his body is fought for in Jude, and (ii) the old body is not fit for the Kingdom (1st Cor.15:50).

Now, maybe you are getting an inkling of why we must address the PROCESS of Christ as both God and Man IN TIME and IN ETERNITY - our "LOGICAL MYSTERY" - as I did in my previous posting. It is a complicated business, and somewhere along the way we will reach the limit of our human intellect. Scripture cannot be wrong, but we have limited understanding.

May the Lord bless us and give us His light on the subject.

I truly do respect the posts that you post, but can you clarify your statement that "being born is by faith in Jesus"? Do you mean that our faith is the cause of us being born again?

 

[Corban]

I truly do respect the posts that you post, but can you clarify your statement that "being born is by faith in Jesus"? Do you mean that our faith is the cause of us being born again?

Maybe scripture can speak for itself. John 1:12-13.

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 John 5:1; "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ... ."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Maybe scripture can speak for itself. John 1:12-13.

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 John 5:1; "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ... ."

Correct me if you think that I am wrong. Was not the reason that those that received him, because they were already born of God?

If not that would make it possible for the unregenerate natural man to believe in spiritual things, which will not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Maybe scripture can speak for itself. John 1:12-13.

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 John 5:1; "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ... ."

Does not 1 John 5:1, teach that the natural man has to be born of God before he can believe that Jesus is the Christ?

 

[true_believer]

By "natural man", do you mean a carnal person?

 

[throughfaith]

Believing the gospel is not the cause of eternal salvation, but a product of already having been saved eternally.[/QU

I commend you on your dedication to study. And believe that you are sincere in your beliefs, but I encourage you to keep an open mind to the scriptures that I am referring to you.

The largest problem with almost all of the regenerated children of God is; that they do not understand the difference in the salvation scriptures. Salvation, saved and save, by Strong's interpretation, means; deliverance, delivered and deliver. The scriptures teach that there is an eternal deliverance, and there are deliverance's that the regenerate receive here in time.

The scriptures, also, teach that the truths of the doctrine of Christ are limited to the few, the remnant, the 144000. and become a mystery to the rest of God's regenerated children. I do not understand many of God's purposes, and this one confuses me the most, because the doctrine of Christ is the most comforting, secure, and peace offering doctrine of any that I have confronted.

I realise that Christ's doctrine is very unpopular with the majority, because of the limitation of it, and rightly so, but it has always been accepted in this way sense the days in which Christ preached it himself.

I know, without a doubt, that I will receive the harshest criticism from all on this forum, and be tagged as conceded, and prideful, but all that I ask, is that you keep an open mind, and seriously think about what I am presenting.

Inspite our disagreements i actually enjoy the exchange. We have to be challenged in our assumptions and presuppositions so I accept the push back also . For me I'm not turned off by Calvinisms ' limited atonement and thats my reason for coming against it ' . If its true then I.ll believe it . I started to unpick reformed theology from the P not the L . Once I started from the P the rest I could see was not scriptural either. Which is unusual because most are challenged by the L or the U .I actually started to be ok with the L but for me the P was the key to unravel the system .

 

[throughfaith]

Inspite our disagreements i actually enjoy the exchange. We have to be challenged in our assumptions and presuppositions so I accept the push back also . For me I'm not turned off by Calvinisms ' limited atonement and thats my reason for coming against it ' . If its true then I.ll believe it . I started to unpick reformed theology from the P not the L . Once I started from the P the rest I could see was not scriptural either. Which is unusual because most are challenged by the L or the U .I actually started to be ok with the L but for me the P was the key to unravel the system .

* not

 

[ForestGreenCook]

By "natural man", do you mean a carnal person?

By natural man, I am referring to the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, who has not yet been regenerated.

The regenerate people sometimes can act as carnal.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Inspite our disagreements i actually enjoy the exchange. We have to be challenged in our assumptions and presuppositions so I accept the push back also . For me I'm not turned off by Calvinisms ' limited atonement and thats my reason for coming against it ' . If its true then I.ll believe it . I started to unpick reformed theology from the P not the L . Once I started from the P the rest I could see was not scriptural either. Which is unusual because most are challenged by the L or the U .I actually started to be ok with the L but for me the P was the key to unravel the system .

I had never heard anything about tulip until I came on this forum.

 

[throughfaith]

I had never heard anything about tulip until I came on this forum.

But do you believe in T.U.L.I.P ?

 

[Magenta]

Correct me if you think that I am wrong. Was not the reason that those that received him, because they were already born of God?

If not that would make it possible for the unregenerate natural man to believe in spiritual things, which will not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14.

One is not born of God by natural birth. One must be born again of the Spirit = being born of God

 

[Corban]

Correct me if you think that I am wrong. Was not the reason that those that received him, because they were already born of God?

If not that would make it possible for the unregenerate natural man to believe in spiritual things, which will not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14.

It seems to me that it happens simultaneously. Believe and be born again.

As to 1st Corinthians 2:14 i can only refer you back to my posting # 25. Our flesh is always natural till death. The Christian is in a war - spirit against flesh. If a Christian sets his mind on the flesh it will have "natural results" or carnal fruit. Paul was talking to born again believers (1st Cor.1:1-2).

 

[Corban]

Does not 1 John 5:1, teach that the natural man has to be born of God before he can believe that Jesus is the Christ?

From the grammar I would say that one is the result of the other. Faith causes one to believe, and the result is rebirth. Maybe I should point it out again, but John 3:6 shows that rebirth happens ONLY in the human spirit. The Soul is left to be transformed, and the flesh is left to die and be resurrected. While the Christian is still alive, he is faced with demands from BOTH the flesh and the spirit. If he sets his mind on the flesh, he will be one of those that Paul addresses in 1st Corinthians 2.

What is your experience? Was there a gap between believing and being born again? And were you at any moment today, in the flesh. I was. I had words with my wife, but in a short time admitted that I was pandering to the "natural man". I reversed my thinking and the problem went away.

 

[throughfaith]

Actually, I said Peter was "on the spot" - meaning that he was together with our Lord. He neither looked forward (in time) to Messiah, nor did he look backwards (in time) as we do. As to hindering our Lord Jesus' death, you propose a difficulty. Are we born again because of Christ's death? Or is it an act of the Holy Spirit in the spirit of a man (Jn.3:6)? The death of our Lord was for sin and sins - a work of atonement OUTSIDE of us. Being BORN is by FAITH in Jesus - a Person (Jn.1:12-13, 3:14-16).

But as to being born again, I tend to agree with you - based on John 7:39 and 20:22. But it raises a difficulty. Both Moses and Elijah, AND three of twelve Apostles were on the Mount of Transfiguration and our Lord Jesus calls that His Kingdom (Matt.16:28). To SEE the Kingdom, a man must be born again. Thus, Moses, Elijah and three Apostles must have been born again BEFORE Christ was risen. Even more difficult is that a man's lifetime is all the time he has to believe. Hebrews 9:27 gives the next event as judgment. Moses must have become born again before he died - some 1,500 years before Christ was raised from the dead. And even more difficult is that Moses must have been in RESURRECTION to be in the Kingdom because (i) his body is fought for in Jude, and (ii) the old body is not fit for the Kingdom (1st Cor.15:50).

Now, maybe you are getting an inkling of why we must address the PROCESS of Christ as both God and Man IN TIME and IN ETERNITY - our "LOGICAL MYSTERY" - as I did in my previous posting. It is a complicated business, and somewhere along the way we will reach the limit of our human intellect. Scripture cannot be wrong, but we have limited understanding.

May the Lord bless us and give us His light on the subject.

I just meant the idea is usually given that those before the cross were looking forward to it . Peter and the rest of the apostles, even being the closest to him ,shows they could not have been ' looking forward to the cross.

 

[throughfaith]

Actually, I said Peter was "on the spot" - meaning that he was together with our Lord. He neither looked forward (in time) to Messiah, nor did he look backwards (in time) as we do. As to hindering our Lord Jesus' death, you propose a difficulty. Are we born again because of Christ's death? Or is it an act of the Holy Spirit in the spirit of a man (Jn.3:6)? The death of our Lord was for sin and sins - a work of atonement OUTSIDE of us. Being BORN is by FAITH in Jesus - a Person (Jn.1:12-13, 3:14-16).

But as to being born again, I tend to agree with you - based on John 7:39 and 20:22. But it raises a difficulty. Both Moses and Elijah, AND three of twelve Apostles were on the Mount of Transfiguration and our Lord Jesus calls that His Kingdom (Matt.16:28). To SEE the Kingdom, a man must be born again. Thus, Moses, Elijah and three Apostles must have been born again BEFORE Christ was risen. Even more difficult is that a man's lifetime is all the time he has to believe. Hebrews 9:27 gives the next event as judgment. Moses must have become born again before he died - some 1,500 years before Christ was raised from the dead. And even more difficult is that Moses must have been in RESURRECTION to be in the Kingdom because (i) his body is fought for in Jude, and (ii) the old body is not fit for the Kingdom (1st Cor.15:50).

Now, maybe you are getting an inkling of why we must address the PROCESS of Christ as both God and Man IN TIME and IN ETERNITY - our "LOGICAL MYSTERY" - as I did in my previous posting. It is a complicated business, and somewhere along the way we will reach the limit of our human intellect. Scripture cannot be wrong, but we have limited understanding.

May the Lord bless us and give us His light on the subject.

Some other factors maybe . Abraham's bosom ? is this where Moses and Elija appear from on the mount ? And after Jesus ( at some point in the tomb goes to the old testament saints there . Could they have recieved what we recieve then ( After the resurrection) ? Also the kingdom that needs rebirth to see and enter . If flesh and blood cannot enter then could a prerequisite that is necessary for seeing and entering the ' Kingdom ' ( Which ever this is referencing) Be glorification? Of course we cannot be glorified without regeneration and the sealing of the Holy spirit until the day of redemption .

 

[Corban]

I just meant the idea is usually given that those before the cross were looking forward to it . Peter and the rest of the apostles, even being the closest to him ,shows they could not have been ' looking forward to the cross.

Yes. That is true. And the cross is pivotal in history. But I asked this before; Are we born again by the works on the cross or by FAITH? When our Lord Jesus made the statements in John, they were all before the cross. The logical thing about Israel was that they should have seen the 330+ prophecies fulfilled before their eyes and accepted Jesus as the Son of God. That is the requirement for rebirth (Jn.1:12-13) - those who "receive Him" and "believe in Him".

 

[Corban]

Some other factors maybe . Abraham's bosom ? is this where Moses and Elija appear from on the mount ? And after Jesus ( at some point in the tomb goes to the old testament saints there . Could they have recieved what we recieve then ( After the resurrection) ? Also the kingdom that needs rebirth to see and enter . If flesh and blood cannot enter then could a prerequisite that is necessary for seeing and entering the ' Kingdom ' ( Which ever this is referencing) Be glorification? Of course we cannot be glorified without regeneration and the sealing of the Holy spirit until the day of redemption .

All correct, but what is interesting is that Elijah has not died yet, and most probably will be one of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. He went to heaven bodily and will die in Jerusalem. The three Apostles were still in the flesh, so they were "spectators". That is why they got afraid at the glory revealed. Moses is in resurrection - the only one really qualified to ENTER the Kingdom.

 

[Magenta]

All correct, but what is interesting is that Elijah has not died yet, and most probably will be one of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. He went to heaven bodily and will die in Jerusalem. The three Apostles were still in the flesh, so they were "spectators". That is why they got afraid at the glory revealed. Moses is in resurrection - the only one really qualified to ENTER the Kingdom.

The transfiguration was a vision...

 

[Corban]

The transfiguration was a vision...

Could be. But what do you think of this eye-witness account? Peter was there. 2nd Peter 1:16-18;

16 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

Seems to me like everything really happened.

 

[Magenta]

Could be. But what do you think of this eye-witness account? Peter was there. 2nd Peter 1:16-18;

16 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

Seems to me like everything really happened.

Jesus Himself called what we know as the transfiguration a "vision."