The Natural Man
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Maybe you don't really know what they believe? Was there something in this quote you don't agree with? I'll sum most of it up with bold letters:
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
What do you suppose are "the things of the Spirit of God"? Perhaps the things the Holy Spirit teaches.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Kinda seems like we need Holy Spirit to accurately understand things. The apostles didn't understand a lot of what Jesus was teaching while he was with them. They were to wait for Holy Spirit before they went out teaching. (black bold some similarities)
Luke 24:45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Acts 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with a water, but in a few days you will be baptized with b the Holy Spirit.” 6Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
What do you suppose are "the things of the Spirit of God"? Perhaps the things the Holy Spirit teaches.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Kinda seems like we need Holy Spirit to accurately understand things. The apostles didn't understand a lot of what Jesus was teaching while he was with them. They were to wait for Holy Spirit before they went out teaching. (black bold some similarities)
Luke 24:45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Acts 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with a water, but in a few days you will be baptized with b the Holy Spirit.” 6Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
As a new believer, with the indwelled Holy Spirit do we understand all things , the deep wisdom of God ? no its not a instant download in one hit . We are encouraged in Roman's 12 .2 to be transformed with the renewal of our minds . If we struggle with this ,like the carnal /' natural man ' believers then we are unable to understand the deeper wisdom the mature have learned . Paul is not talking about lost men .
Calvinists give too much credit to Theologians , especially dead ones with beards .
I agree. The things of God cannot be comprehended by the unsaved. But consider this. Every problem in Acts of the Apostles concerned BELIEVERS. Every letter written in the New Testament was written to a Church or believers, except maybe Peter and James. How come - if the things of God are understood by those born of the Spirit? How come Peter, who was personally trained by the Lord Jesus, was born again and Baptized in the Holy Spirit, could say that the things that Paul wrote were hard to understand (2nd Pet.3:15-16). After all, he addressed the, "... beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (2nd Peter 3:1-2).
Are the unbelievers "beloved"? Do the heathen have "pure minds"? Can a man be "mindful" of God's Words, Old and New Testament when he is an enemy of God? No. Peter writes to Christians, and they, and Peter himself, had trouble with Paul's writings.
In my eyes and thinking, natural man means the naked unadulterated truth, physically naked, mentally naked and spiritually naked. In other word, all of the worldly conditioning, thinking, there version of God and Jesus, the illusion of covering yourself in clothing and pretending to be someone you most definitely are not, you purpose here etc. All removed and replaced with the truth. Then you become the natural person you were meant to be all along. For thousands of years man has been slaves to sin, the "system" ,finances, world values and beliefs. Until man removes all of that and turns to the truth, they are doomed to failure. Hence what is happening in the world right now.
The lost man can understand the Gospel . The carnal / natural believer's can under stand the deeper wisdom but they need to mature first in the things of God ,to be able . Peter I believe struggled with Paul s sayings ( some ) because Paul recieved his revelation not from the apostles or from anyman but from Jesus directly. To Paul alone were given the ' mysteries ' ect
I do not seek contention, but the thread is about the "Natural man". You keep using the term "the unbeliever" - as if they were synonomous. I showed in my first posting the definitions and usage of "the natural man" in the Bible. I also showed that all men, believer and unbeliever are natural while in this body. It is just that the believer has access to the Holy Spirit if he wants. But that does not stop him being natural if he turns to that source. Plainly said; The BELIEVER can be "natural".
John 6:
43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me—…
Not a calvanist though but our Lord said this so I believe it!
43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me—…
Not a calvanist though but our Lord said this so I believe it!
Where? I'm definitely not saying the unbeliever and the natural man are synonymous. Its the opposite . I don't think Paul is taking about lost men at all in 1 cor 2 and 3 ,in that context .
Hi MonicaLara, and welcome to the Forum. I hope you profit much.
Your answer is one of the best. Just believe what the inspired Word says and leave out the "boxes" that people try to put one in. A preclse and accurate inspection of your verses just shows that man is incapable of "drawing" himself Godward. A man once said that an unbeliever is is like a snowball on a hill. He can only go down, gain size and momentum, and land in hell, UNLESS God reverses the direction. That about sums up your verses. It favors neither Calvin nor Arminius, but it is the truth.
Thanks for the clarification. I saw your previous post too late. We are in agreement.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Perhaps this verse is the definition of the natural man. The natural man is a man that does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. A man that does not receive the things of the Spirit of God is called a natural man.
Perhaps this verse is the definition of the natural man. The natural man is a man that does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. A man that does not receive the things of the Spirit of God is called a natural man.
Of course it favours both Cal/ armins . When, why ,what and who is to be asked of 'drawn ' ect .