The Hostility Between Men & Women
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I'll have to paste what you said and respond in black.
TheNarrowPath: Yes I am a noob to Bible reading and comprehension , that is why I dont quote from the Bible. Currently reading Psalms.
Caleb: I try not to quote the Bible, but religion makes christians dim, so without quoting the Bible, it seems you're giving your own personal opinions and preferences because that's what most christians do. By the way, are you a new believer? If so, how did that come about?
TheNarrowPath: Okay very interesting so far, I didnt know this. So these [Jezebel, Ahab, and Eunuch] spirits God gave men and women, the men get it harder but it evens out in the end?
Caleb: God didn't and doesn't give anything bad or evil. He doesn't give the Jezebel, Ahab, and Eunuch spirits to anyone. The word 'spirit' can mean 'evil spirit' or 'mindset'. Those three are really mindsets that have corresponding spirits that will work alongside. Eg. if a man chooses to be passive and indifferent to people's needs and doesn't want the responsibility of being a man as God created him to be, he already has 'an Ahab mindset', therefore, corresponding spirits (eg. Apathy & Indifference, narcissism, lovelessness, etc.) will attach to him. If a woman thinks in her heart/has the attitude that (ie. she doesn't consciously know she believes this way) "Men are bad (useless, to blame for everything, untrustworthy, inept, etc.), but women are good (worthy of special treatment, can do no wrong, princesses/queens, etc.)", then she already has the foundation laid for the Jezebel spirit to attach to her. However, though God puts the greater responsibility on men to do good, in the end, it all evens out and a woman can't say, "I was just following the man and doing [the bad] he was doing" because unlike the American courts, God judges men and women with the same scales.
TheNarrowPath: Wow a few sentences in and the word Narcissism jumps out at me. I was married to the first and was involved with the second. Both really do a mind f**k on you.
Caleb: NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) is very common. The APA (American Psychiatric Association) would like you to think it's rare just like they want you to think DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, once called MPD or Multiple Personality Disorder) is rare but both of those are very common. So, most people have had to put up with a narcissist or two in their lives as they're basically everywhere. Furthermore, when you live in a society that encourages overall narcissism, it's easy to get narcissists out of that. And yes, narcissists have a spiritual gene (I call it the "lucifer gene") which makes them like lucifer in their attitude and belief system. I can explain more of that later if you want.
TheNarrowPath: Thats pretty much how most people find out about NPD I believe, as was in my case being married to it and I did not know it had a name until a professional told me.
Caleb: That's how most people discover NPD-- by having to deal with narcissists.
TheNarrowPath: Do you think [the Wall and its effects] is the case also with Christian women?
Caleb: Yes. God is just/fair which means that He applies the same metric to everyone across the board. This is why Jesus said God's blessings fall on all people; it's also true thata whatever curse is 'deserved' will land on all people who have a landing pad set out for it. If your first Parents are Adam and Eve, then you are inherited the Curse that was put on them, have the Wall, and will experience its effects in heterosexual interactions and relationships. No one is exempt. In fact, christian women can easily be worse than non-christian women in that religion always makes people worse than they were before instead of better. Only Jesus makes people better through the inner working of sanctification by the Holy Spirit. (Only a 'forceful', continual, and merciless application of the Blood and the Atonement can burn out and uproot curses as deep-seated as and that go back as far as the Wall/Fall.) When a christian isn't being sanctified in the power of the Holy Spirit, he/she will often be a worse version of themselves before they became christians. (Because this 'worse' is rarely seen in overt sins but lies deep within in the person's heart and attitudes, this fact of being two to three times worse cannot be observed on the surface.) My own observation (and probably all the secular people agree) is that christianity usually makes people at least two times (but often three times) worse than they were before they became christians. This is not hyperbole or exaggeration in the least. Jesus Himself exposed the fact that religion (without the Life of Jesus which is most christianity today) spiritually kills people and makes people two times worse than they were before they were religious, He said to the religious leaders, "Woe to you, teachers of the la' (w and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are" (Matthew 23:15).
TheNarrowPath: The video was fascinating. From my disappointment with modern feminism I have tried to stay away from gender rights movements because it seems, to have their cause move forward they need to trample on their so called oppressors. Cassie mentions that she was not listening to her interviewees and I can see that happening in many marriages especially with women. Can women admit this, most of us ask our husbands a question and we have an answer ready, a translation of what we think he means. Why do we do this?
Caleb: The Wall of Hostility/Enmity/Separation/Division is the cause. And women can't admit any fault to men as long as they see men as their enemies (which, latently, they do). Feminism is a False Sisterhood just like secret societies, unhealthy (arrogant) police unions/precincts, and arrogant military factions are a False Brotherhood. (There's even a very large satanic cult headquartered across the U.S. called 'The Brotherhood'.) Generally speaking, women don't even like each other. (It's called 'brotherly love' for a reason.) Someone said that men put each other down (ie. playing around) but don't mean it whereas women compliment each other but don't mean it. It truly warms my heart to see women getting along genuinely because it's uncommon. But when a man steps into the picture, then women unite under the False Sisterhood. Poisoned by the Wall inside them, they see and hear everything regarding men through a Veil around their heads (I'm speaking metaphorically here) and believe that "The enemy (women) of my enemy (men) is my friend." We all receive communication one of two ways: we either 'translate' what is said (ie. we receive it just as it's said) or we 'interpret' what is said (ie. we give it our own meaning). The fact is that we all 'translate' communication from people we trust and 'interpret' communication from people we don't trust. So, if a friend at work told me, "Hey, let me buy you lunch on break today," I'll translate it just as he said it: "Let me buy you lunch on break today." However. If a guy who dislikes me or who I dislike at work tells me the same thing, I'll be doing mental trigonometry as I try to interpret what he means: "He wants to put me in a position where I owe him. He wants to get me caught up. He's up to no good." That is why women interpret what their husbands say or have an interpretation ready: because they do not trust their husbands because he is a man/male (in their minds he is always up to good because he is innately bad), because the Wall is in place within them and the Veil from it around their heads affects what they see, hear, and perceive when it pertains to men. Is this starting to make sense now? All human beings naturally 'translate' communication from trusted sources but 'interpret' communication from untrusted sources.
TheNarrowPath: A lot of what [Cassie Jaye] discovered during her research I had heard Jordan Peterson talk on. So my question is do we need gender equality?
Caleb: Jordan Peterson is zealous about a sense of equity among men and women and in overall government. 'Gender equality' is something of a misnomer. We need fair treatment of all people, but women who are barking about 'gender equality' don't care that men get more punishment for the same crime as women or any of those other facts. They don't want to be 'equal' when it isn't convenient for them because what they really want is female superiority (the manifestation of the Jezebel spirit) over men, not gender equality.
TheNarrowPath: Some of us already are waking up and learning to appreciate the differences between men and women. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain all of that.
Caleb: There's a mass waking up, yes. The enemy is the one pushing all the division through his human agents (ie. satanists, occultists, luciferians in all areas of government and society), but he can only work with what he has. However one looks at it, things will definitely get a lot worse than they are now before they get better.
You accuse anyone who questions or disagrees with you of having the exact traits you display yourself throughout your posts.
Is saying goodbye your way of saying you're putting the person on ignore?
You must have at least 2/3 of the audience on ignore by now.
I see your question was not answered, so I give you my thoughts. I was taught that the desire referred to in Genesis 3 is a desire to control, an unloving desire, and that it is the same word used to describe sin's desire to control Cain.
Gen 3:16 KJV Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
I also believe the "he shall rule over thee" is more like a tyrant's rule than good leadership. I think the other words about "rebellious, crazy woman" are opinion, rather than of any scriptural merit.
I find usually that someone who is afraid to debate or explain an issue and rather ignores, does so because he is wrong and does not want to be proved wrong in front of others.
There are times when it is prudent to ignore trolls, but it's also fairly easy to determine the difference between a troll and an honest request.
On the other hand, now we can refute everything he says and not have to worry about long screeds he might post in reply.
?
dont you mean its a window, if you can see through it?
or are you trying to convince of something that doesnt exist.
hmmm
also, Jesus is the door, so, there must be a door in this wall to get through obviously.
T
TheNarrowPath
Guest
I had quoted you but the site said nothing over 1000 words so had to delete your side.
I would say Im a new believer. Something traumatic happened to my family in 2019, and that is when I got saved. However I didnt know how to trust in God completely and my fear of handing trust to Him was exacerbated by all these influences surrounding me. It was very hard to discern what was God and what was not of God. After 2019 because I was still dealing with the situation that led me to God I went through a couple of years feeling really numb to everything, my family, my work, my friendships all suffered. Its only been this year 2022 that Im trying to climb out of the hole I dug because I cant continue how I was. So I joined this site to learn more about following and talking, just being with God and getting into a daily habit of reading the Bible.
Okay so now Im really grasping the concept of spirits after you used the modern terms for them. When you said God applies the same metric to everyone across the board, I just thought wow thats equality lol. I agree that religion even Christianity can make things worse than how you were before. For me I thought being a Christian was supposed to be this easy transformation but Im finding it challenging to stay away from my old ways.
My experience with women if my real life is that that there is a lot of resentment and jealousy between women and I find it puzzling especially with my closest female friend and my sisters. It even occurs between mothers and daughters. Im just stating from my observations even the unhealthy competitiveness is something I want to avoid. When people see females as the weak or fairer sex, I dont know if that is true because Ive seen women who on the outside look like strong powerful women but they got to those positions by trampling on others. I go to work and there are women gossiping all the time. Its hard to avoid and not participate in if you want the company of others. Im just talking about women because I am one. I personally believe for a lot of women, one of the biggest problem they face is women, so basically themselves.
Are you sure JP is zealous.? I thought he came to Christ recently. Certainly his political views have changed during the pandemic from the liberal to conservative....which is a good thing.
I would say Im a new believer. Something traumatic happened to my family in 2019, and that is when I got saved. However I didnt know how to trust in God completely and my fear of handing trust to Him was exacerbated by all these influences surrounding me. It was very hard to discern what was God and what was not of God. After 2019 because I was still dealing with the situation that led me to God I went through a couple of years feeling really numb to everything, my family, my work, my friendships all suffered. Its only been this year 2022 that Im trying to climb out of the hole I dug because I cant continue how I was. So I joined this site to learn more about following and talking, just being with God and getting into a daily habit of reading the Bible.
Okay so now Im really grasping the concept of spirits after you used the modern terms for them. When you said God applies the same metric to everyone across the board, I just thought wow thats equality lol. I agree that religion even Christianity can make things worse than how you were before. For me I thought being a Christian was supposed to be this easy transformation but Im finding it challenging to stay away from my old ways.
My experience with women if my real life is that that there is a lot of resentment and jealousy between women and I find it puzzling especially with my closest female friend and my sisters. It even occurs between mothers and daughters. Im just stating from my observations even the unhealthy competitiveness is something I want to avoid. When people see females as the weak or fairer sex, I dont know if that is true because Ive seen women who on the outside look like strong powerful women but they got to those positions by trampling on others. I go to work and there are women gossiping all the time. Its hard to avoid and not participate in if you want the company of others. Im just talking about women because I am one. I personally believe for a lot of women, one of the biggest problem they face is women, so basically themselves.
Are you sure JP is zealous.? I thought he came to Christ recently. Certainly his political views have changed during the pandemic from the liberal to conservative....which is a good thing.
And, you are not very observant...
It was a 'consequence', not a 'curse'.
Genesis 3:
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
'desire' => 'longing'
It is not about her trying to control her husband; rather, it is about her "conscientious thoughtful caring devotion" being [directed] 'to' (for) her husband.
Me? Hostile? Surely you jest...
How did I miss this?
I just mentioned earlier that someone would probably post a MGTW thread sometime.
This is what I've been saving this for.
This can be like a Club within the forum.
I just mentioned earlier that someone would probably post a MGTW thread sometime.
This is what I've been saving this for.
This can be like a Club within the forum.
The words 'his' and 'him' in Genesis 4:7 are not referring to 'sin' - you have Cain ruling over sin - think about it...
The KJV sometimes phrases sentences oddly to how we now speak - I think this is one of those occasions. The 1984 NIV explains the relationships better, in my view.
Ge. 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Ge. 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
The site below (I can't vouch for the rest of it) explains what I meant with respect to the word used in the original text. Again, I'm no expert in the original languages myself, but this is what I was taught, and I was taught by knowledgable Christian men, so I largely trust their teachings.
https://knowingscripture.com/articles/the-womans-desire-and-the-mans-rule-genesis-3-16
" While we should not root our understanding of male and female roles in Genesis 3:16, it is still worth attempting to properly understand. Let us make mention of the interpretive challenges of this verse, as well as likely conclusions.
First, there is the question of the meaning of the rare Hebrew word תְּשׁוּקָה (teshuqa), which is usually translated “desire.” It is only used two other times in the Old Testament—a chapter later in Genesis 4:7 to describe sin’s “desire” for Cain and then in Song of Songs 7:10 [7:11 in the MT] for apparent sexual desire (“I am my beloved’s, and his desire is for me”). "
Actually, you have to think of the Temple when you see verses such as the one you quoted. The dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles was part of the makeup of the Temple itself, and Jesus in his flesh did away with that wall. Now Gentile believers are adopted as sons and there's no distinction between Jewish believers and Gentile believers.
That said, a lot of the tension between the sexes is simply not always understanding the opposite sex. There are things that are typically female and things that are typically male and we don't always "get" those proclivities.
My son is here staying with us for the past month and he and my husband "gang up" on me .. it's all fun and games for us because we all have similar humor but it can highlight how much we really don't understand the proclivities of the opposite sex sometimes.
Other than that, you may want to look up the doctrine of total depravity. Our "fleshly" selves are not "good", as Jesus said there is none good save God. So long as we feed the flesh, whether our own or others', we will encourage what amounts to our rebellious nature.
It's generally a beast best left unfed.
I get what you're saying. But since I was a little boy, I was inclined to make distinctions, even the finest distinctions. I remember around age seven almost wanting to write a thesis on the distinctions 'between' these three similar words: recognize, realize, and notice. I found that none of those three words can be interchanged for another one of those words in any sentence or at any time and still retain the same meaning. In short, though they're very similar, they're very distinct. This is also true about the Godhead (I wrote a post specifically about this two days ago): They are the same, but Each actually is very distinct and can be recognized (not realized or noticed) by those distinctions.
God gave me this propensity to make even very fine distinctions (I mean, what finer distinctions can be made than the ones made within the Godhead?) because of what He called me to. Because of this ability, I'm able to see the distinction between the carnal nature and what I call "the Wall" raised between men and women. (I'm also not the only one with this ability. I find most people are too lazy to use theirs. As Hebrews 5:14 says, "Solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." People who don't constantly train their senses to make distinctions, even fine ones, will not be able to make them. Most don't exercise their discernment. I've been exercising or training in discernment since I was at least seven years old. Naturally, I'll be able to discern more or, literally, see more invisible things, than people who haven't been training their discernment at all or as long.
An example of fine distinctions:
1. The fallen or carnal nature is distinct from the Wall of Enmity that was raised between specifically and only men and women. It's important to note that this wasn't the only wall that was raised between two entities after the Fall. There are other walls (and God said He'd put enmity (ie. a wall of hostility) between the woman's seed and satan's seed), but my focus here is the one between men and women.
2. The Wall is related to the carnal nature as well as the Curse that was the effect of the Fall. The Fall, the Curse, the Carnal Nature, and the Wall are all related but very distinct from each other (just like a person's spirit, soul, and body are).
3. Between men and women, the Wall doubles as a Wall of Enmity (like, very real hate, not good-natured dislike) as well as a Wall of Division. These are all my own terms since we don't have any mainstream ones out there. The Wall of Division wax the first one I noticed (clearly/consciously saw) or recognized (understood what I was seeing). I've only spoken on this forum and site about the WH (let's just use that as short for Wall of Hostility). I am now going to speak about the WD (Wall of Division) which are distinct and different from each other but still work together.
4. Where the WH causes innate and latent hostility in men and women towards each other which defiles heterosexual relationships, the WD causes men and women to be able to understand each other which strongly mitigates the harm that each party can do to the other party. The WH was raised by the Curse (due to the Fall), but I believe God Himself raised the WD. He knew that after the Fall, people would now be selfish and would exploit or harm others in the interest of benefiting their own self (which proceeded to happen with Cain and Abel). We know that the more someone understands the way something else works (eg. a car, electronics, human psychology, etc.), the better knowledge to use (in a good or bad way), control, or manipulate that thing. Even when the WD in place, men and women want different things and manipulate each other to get their individual needs met. Therefore, if there was no WD between them, then they'd understand each other enough for this world to be a far worse place than it is now.
5. I recognized the WD before the WH. I was in college and noticed and realized that guys and girls were constantly trying to figure out how the opposite party thinks, feels, functions, and operates. I gave what I knew, but everyone was still in the dark. This happened two years straight. No matter what anyone said or what I said, the girls still didn't understand the guys and vice versa. I was pretty surprised. I began to think, "The answers are plain and clear to me. Why aren't they clear to everyone else?" Then God began to indirectly give me understanding: when the Fall occurred, man changed. Rather than using everything in his life to serve God, he'd use everything in his life to serve himself-- other people included (again we immediately see this with Cain). Men and women were now inclined to use each other, so God raised a wall (the WD, not the WH) between them making them unable to understand each other's language, communication, or ways.
6. This WD isn't the only example of similar walls in the Bible nor of the fact that when two or more entities are joined (no wall) in their carnal desires or on an evil quest (intention), God stepped in and created a wall. Firstly, we see that God re-enabled a donkey to speak to Balaam (the Bible uses the word "loosed" or "opened" to signify that a restriction on this donkey's ability to speak was lifted at and for that moment). You can only re-enable something that was once able but somehow became unable. You can read the story in Numbers 22:21-39 and notice that it wasn't God or an angel that spoke through the donkey had his own feelings, emotions, and vocabulary. Balaam wasn't surprised that his donkey was talking either. In Genesis 2, we see Adam interact with animals but aren't expressly told he could talk to them (though it's way to speculate that). However. In Genesis 3, we see the serpent talk to Eve and she wasn't taken aback. The serpent was cunning. That means it wouldn't have openly spoken to Eve... if animals could not speak like humans at that time. Further, when people assembled to do wrong in God's eyes, the Godhead also put a wall between people so that they could not understand each other's communication and therefore be able to carry out the evil they intended:
"Now the whole earth had one language and one speech...
And the Lord said, 'Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now no evil thing they want to do will be impossible for them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.' So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city" (Genesis 11).
The Bible doesn't spell much out, but God can reveal what isn't plainly stated. The same way God made the people at Babel unable understand each others' language so they couldn't do evil is the way He set the WD (but not the WH) between men and women at the Fall so they couldn't do greater evil to each other than they already were destined by the Fall to do. Now men and women speak languages (ie. way of life, communication style etc.) that are so different that no matter how long and hard they look, no matter how many books are written about romance and relationships, neither party is able to apprehend or understand the other party's 'language'. God caused this 'confusion' on purpose (as He did at Babel), in order to save each party from the selfishness of the other party. This is a fact (if you research it and ask Him to reveal it to you, I promise it'll be an exciting process albeit astonishing). In raising the WD between the sexes to save them from each other, God forever put to rest the foundational belief system in the woman's side of the WH: "Men are [innately] bad, but women are [innately] good." The purpose/function of the WH is enmity; the purpose/function of the WD is peace. I encourage you to prayerfully research it (the WH and WD) for yourself.
Honestly, I believe I beg to differ with your overall analysis.
Where you see the statement "the man shall rule over the woman" as a curse from God - I don't.
On another forum I ran into someone saying that and I disagree with the statement. God stated a fact, and calling it a curse I think is trying to read into the verse, not reading it as is.
I am certainly not cursed because my husband has the right of final say between us. You can't have two chiefs.
Well, most men wouldn't call ruling over a woman a curse. But in the context when God said it, He was distributing the Curse from the Fall (or the effects of the Fall) to Adam and Eve. To Adam He said humans would have to work to eat (rather than just eat as they did in Eden). Today, we don't consider working to eat a curse. It's normal, expected, natural, familiar. Yet, God called it a curse because it is.
When God told Eve her desire would be for Adam and that he would rule over her, He was talking about a curse, not a blessing. Everything God was saying to the serpent, to Eve, and to Adam in that passage was curses and misfortune, not blessings.
As God pronounces judgment on Eve for her part of the transgression in Eden, He says, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you” (Genesis 3:16). This verse causes some puzzlement. It would seem that a woman desiring her husband would be a good thing, and not a curse. The Hebrew phrase in question does not include a verb and is literally translated “toward your husband your desire.” Since this judgment is predictive, the future tense verb “will be” is added for clarity: “Your desire will be for your husband.” The most basic and straightforward understanding of this verse is that woman and man would now have ongoing conflict. In contrast to the ideal conditions in the Garden of Eden and the harmony between Adam and Eve, their relationship, from that point on, would include a power struggle. The NLT translation makes it more evident: “You will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/desire-husband-rule.html
What I shared about the Wall of Hostility is true. And what I shared about the Wall of Division (just like dividing their languages at Babel caused them to be divided across earth) is true. You can see the effects of both of them in interactions between men and women every day. God has shown me the foundations of the effects so I can see it and know what it is rooted back to. But if you can't see the foundations of it and think that it's simply tied to the carnal nature and to nothing else, then that most certainly isn't true.
Just like each person comes from two people (a father and a mother), one blessing or curse can come from two blessings or curses, and two blessings or curses can come from one blessing or curse. There is no way to force the spiritual realm or the Bible into a box of any making. We can't tell it what to say or what to think.
For example: Moses was born long after Abraham; but it was Moses who God told that God would visit the iniquities of parents down to their children and beyond. However. Way before God said this to Moses, we saw the same principle at work in Abraham's life. Abraham lied on two occasions to kings (one king and one Pharaoh), saying his pretty wife was his sister to keep from being killed and his wife taken as the custom of that time was. Years on down the line after these events, Sarah bore Isaac. When Isaac was over forty years old and was married to Rebecca, Isaac also lied to a king saying that Rebecca, who was pretty, was really his sister and not his wife in order to keep from being killed and his wife taken. What happened here was that Abraham's iniquity passed down to Isaac; the very same thing. But when we talk about iniquities, we think that they somehow began to have effect after God told Moses about them.
You can't have two chiefs and aren't supposed to. But if it was up to you, wouldn't you want to have the discernment to distinguish between good and evil-- between a regular vine and poison ivy, between something that looks real but is fake and something that's in fact real, between God's voice and the enemy voice, between when a wife submitting to her husband is good and when it's bad, and between a husband ruling over a wife is good and when it's bad? I think distinguishing things is really important. Nothing Gobd spoke after the Fall is positive or a blessing. Even if it sounds like a blessing, He was only speaking their judgment (curses) for disobedience to all three guilty parties (the serpent, Adam and Eve).
I like got questions website, usually it's very good but that website is wrong when it says the basic understanding of that verse is conflict.
I don't see any conflict in a Godly and biblical marriage. ???? Where is this conflict.
Any conflict at all between men and women arises from the sin nature - not commanded or installed by God or anything He did.