I understand plate tectonics, but just because there is going to a real earthquake at the mount of olives does not mean that the return of Jesus is physical and not spiritual or symbolic in some way.
The Great Apostasy.
- Thread starter Dave-L
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Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
The majority of the Jews did not accept Christ, but God did not give up on them.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
I know people say apostasy but the Church is only people that act like Christ, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church, so the Church can never fall away.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
If people leave the truth it has nothing to do with the Church it just means less people are abiding by the truth, or they left the Church, but God always has people in the truth like there is Jews that are in the truth.
The Church can never fall away, and even when the world accepts the New Age Christ the Church is still there for he blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, which he would not have to do that if the saints are gone, for he is telling the people that their religion is false, and their God does not exist, and makes war against all people who keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This falling away has to do with the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the nations governments came together as one to work for peace on earth, and they stopped the preaching of the Gospel worldwide saying it is not the truth, and they want peace not division.
Which will lead to the transgressors coming to the full, the falling away, for the world is not accepting the Gospel to be preached, and then a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, for the sin condition of the world caused it to happen.
As long as one nation allows the preaching of the Gospel then the world would never rebel against God, but the nations governments came together as one and stopped it being preached, and international law not to preach the Gospel, and the world embraced the new age movement that interprets all religions as evolution is religion, and they are still evolving, and no God, which is what caused the religion of Islam to rebel against the world for they stopped the spreading of Islam, although the Arab governments went along with the other nations.
The Church can never fall away, and the falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, and the New Age Christ kingdom took away the hope of the world, and they made war against the saints, so it is over and God will put the world down.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
The majority of the Jews did not accept Christ, but God did not give up on them.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
I know people say apostasy but the Church is only people that act like Christ, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church, so the Church can never fall away.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
If people leave the truth it has nothing to do with the Church it just means less people are abiding by the truth, or they left the Church, but God always has people in the truth like there is Jews that are in the truth.
The Church can never fall away, and even when the world accepts the New Age Christ the Church is still there for he blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, which he would not have to do that if the saints are gone, for he is telling the people that their religion is false, and their God does not exist, and makes war against all people who keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This falling away has to do with the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the nations governments came together as one to work for peace on earth, and they stopped the preaching of the Gospel worldwide saying it is not the truth, and they want peace not division.
Which will lead to the transgressors coming to the full, the falling away, for the world is not accepting the Gospel to be preached, and then a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, for the sin condition of the world caused it to happen.
As long as one nation allows the preaching of the Gospel then the world would never rebel against God, but the nations governments came together as one and stopped it being preached, and international law not to preach the Gospel, and the world embraced the new age movement that interprets all religions as evolution is religion, and they are still evolving, and no God, which is what caused the religion of Islam to rebel against the world for they stopped the spreading of Islam, although the Arab governments went along with the other nations.
The Church can never fall away, and the falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, and the New Age Christ kingdom took away the hope of the world, and they made war against the saints, so it is over and God will put the world down.
Well, first off, those are said to be two "SIGNS" that "appear in heaven"... but the description of one of them (Rev12:3) sure is similar to what we read later in the text, in 17:3,9-13 :
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast being full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [...]
9 Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them; 10 and there are seven kings. The five are fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come; and when he shall have come, it behooves him to remain a little while.
11 And the beast which was, and is not, is also himself an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. 12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour, along with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and they shall give up their power and authority to the beast.
So... you're probably right... nothing at all behind that... no reality... nothing "real"... nothing to see here folks, move along... it ain't never gonna be something tangible that anyone can "SEE" with their eyeballs, it's all "spiritual" (all in your minds). LOL. Not.
= symbols, not literal.Well, first off, those are said to be two "SIGNS" that "appear in heaven"... but the description of one of them (Rev12:3) sure is similar to what we read later in the text, in 17:3,9-13 :
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast being full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [...]
9 Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them; 10 and there are seven kings. The five are fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come; and when he shall have come, it behooves him to remain a little while.
11 And the beast which was, and is not, is also himself an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. 12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour, along with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and they shall give up their power and authority to the beast.
So... you're probably right... nothing at all behind that... no reality... nothing "real"... nothing to see here folks, move along... it ain't never gonna be something tangible that anyone can "SEE" with their eyeballs, it's all "spiritual" (all in your minds). LOL. Not.
Yes.
Part of the reason some do not grasp this, is because when they read the phrase "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (33x), they translate that in their minds to be saying (instead), "UP IN Heaven," which it is not.
Another couple of passages to consider (to add to your examples) is one I've posted before:
[quoting old post]
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"[JC] having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"[JC] coming [present participle] in flesh" [<--compare this "coming [present participle]" to that of same, found in 1Th1:10, for example]
[end quoting]
Then... besides the TWO passages using the word "RETURN" (speaking of Him, and "future") that are found in the passages of:
1) Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [note the parallel passages to this one], where it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [see the "G347" word also in Matt8:11 and its parallel]... "BLESSED" [same "BLESSED" as we find in Dan12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the SAME point in time]; and
2) Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise, be thou over 5 cities" (same as we see in Rev2:26-27 and Rev19:15b "He SHALL [future] shepherd them [/the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]" i.e. "future" even to THAT point in time)...
[in addition to those]
we also see it said, in Acts 1:11 -
"who also said, "Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, having been taken up from you into heaven, will thus come in that manner you beheld [/SAW] Him going [/journeying] into heaven." (speaking of His Second Coming to the earth point in time... which will also be "VISIBLE")
1) Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [note the parallel passages to this one], where it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [see the "G347" word also in Matt8:11 and its parallel]... "BLESSED" [same "BLESSED" as we find in Dan12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the SAME point in time]; and
2) Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise, be thou over 5 cities" (same as we see in Rev2:26-27 and Rev19:15b "He SHALL [future] shepherd them [/the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]" i.e. "future" even to THAT point in time)...
[in addition to those]
we also see it said, in Acts 1:11 -
"who also said, "Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, having been taken up from you into heaven, will thus come in that manner you beheld [/SAW] Him going [/journeying] into heaven." (speaking of His Second Coming to the earth point in time... which will also be "VISIBLE")
No have not thought much about that. Although I could put some research into it. The Bible usually explains itself. I assume the dragon in Rev is the Serpent in the Garden. We start off easy in the beginning then we work toward understanding the more complex. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Genesis 3:15) "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." (Rev 12:17) The women here is Eve and her descendants. They were scattered and then they were gathered.
The new Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. It takes up the whole Arab Continental plate. 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. I think I will have a place there. A condo or something so that when I go to visit I will have a place to stay. Big enough for me and my friends. We are told they will share in our reward. "Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person's reward." (Matthew10:41) As we judge others we really judge ourselves.
Here's how I see the events of Revelation today and in history. I look for what the symbols represent instead of for the symbols coming to life. And then I can see fulfillment from the time written, presently taking place. And then know what to expect approximately in the future. Something overlooked in nearly all prophecy is that it was not understood until after fulfillment. So the danger in adding to God's word is in saying "microchips" are the mark of the beast. Or in other places where we substitute technology for scripture.
The "Women clothed with the sun" is the nation Israel. We know this from Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:
“Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” (Genesis 37:9)
The Sun= Joseph's father Jacob
The Moon= Joseph's Mother Sarah
The 12 Stars= Joseph and his brothers
Revelation is a timeline of vision, expressed in symbols, grounded in reality
I was hoping you would be able to correct it before your edit time was up
Then I could have deleted my post
Why did the Jews want to put Jesus to death to begin with?
If Christianity were just to be a form of Judaism minus animal sacrifice, like most Christians seem to ascribe to, I don't think the Jews ever would have been so offended.
But the Lord Jesus put an END to Judaism. And the Jews knew He was doing it.
Why more Christians don't understand this most basic of Christian concepts I do not know.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
If Christianity were just to be a form of Judaism minus animal sacrifice, like most Christians seem to ascribe to, I don't think the Jews ever would have been so offended.
But the Lord Jesus put an END to Judaism. And the Jews knew He was doing it.
Why more Christians don't understand this most basic of Christian concepts I do not know.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I am sure there was lots of Jeolousy esp when money and birthright is involved.
With Moses we are told: "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD." We see this in our understanding of the Hebrew letters in the Hebrew alphabet. God declares the end from the Beginning. With Jesus though He had not taken physical form until Mary gave Him birth.
I won't begin to say I understand the whole Jew thing, especially in this day in age. But I have heard and see some things in the Word that He:
1. They were probably jealous of Him and His following
2. He exposed their wickedness
3. He wasn't what they were expecting (we need to be careful of this today too)
4. They were offended, especially of who He said He was.
5. Broke the law according to their traditions
This is the first time I've heard that they wanted Him dead because they knew He was bringing an end to Judaism.
Remember though, He wasn't the first to cause such a stir among them, but the only One to rise from the dead and continue living.