The false early rapture timing doctrine

[Dave-L]

and nor can you say it is unbiblical because you do not see it or those do not see it as you do. All you have to do is look at what was given from the Bible and use what was given and show where i am wrong.


Ok it is no more a false teaching(doctrine) than post trib or No trib rapture. The collective understanding of the church orthodox teaching is the known as the "imminence" of the Lord coming. Calling the Pretrib Rapture false and suggesting those who hold to it are minster of satan is ignorance. Also you should know what you are talking about in context to where the teaching came from, it came from the Word of God and it was not only 1thess 4:13-18. Jesus is the one by where this teaching was established first. Found in John 14:3 "I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there you maybe also".

Paul the Apostle and he was the apostle to the Gentiles church, was given a special revelation from the Lord Himself regarding the details of what is known as the "Rapture" and it's relationship to the Resurrection. 1cor Paul speaks of the Rapture of the church together with bodily resurrection of deceased believers:

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (15:51,52,NASB)

I guess we will assume Paul taught doctrines of devils?

Aslo 2thess 2:1 speaks of this.
It is not just 1thess chapter 4:13-18 that your assertion of the doctrine of the Rapture was built on but many scriptures.

and those who spoke of it were:

1. The Lord Jesus John 14, Matthew 24
2. Paul 1Thess 4:13-18, Titus 2:13, 1cor 15:51-52, 2thess 2:1
3. John in the book of Rev 19 coming with HIS saint

There is many scripture to support this understanding. Do you have to agree? No. Is it doctrine of devils from minister of satan? No. Will the pre-trib christian more saved than the post-trip? No. is post-trib a doctrine of devils? No.

The Tribulation Period as it is revealed in Daniel and the Book of Revelation is Gods Judge and Wrath poured out on the earth.
In Revelation chapter 6 is the starting of Gods wrath being poured out on the earth after the Lamb open or breaks the first seal.
Rev 6:1 the four Horsemen come. verse 6:17 says:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"(KJV)

I have not been subject to Gods wrath, nor has the church of the living God which are not here after chapter 4 of REV.

Faith comes by hearing the word. You cannot have faith if scripture doesn't mention it. Nobody so far can find scripture directly supporting it.

 

[MattforJesus]

Paul said that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed who will claim to be God by evolving through the power of nature.

As long as salvation is available to the world the saints will remain on earth to witness of the truth.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to them, and the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there are souls under the altar that ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints that come out of tribulation join them.

Which the beast shall make war against the saints, and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father, and puts down the world, and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ.

There is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ, and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no pre-trib resurrection, and then tribulation saints that are resurrected, for there is only one resurrection of the saints.

When the resurrection happens Jesus said that the hypocrites will not join them, and once He closes the door nobody can enter, and said to be prepared and watch, for there is only one chance.

So if it is a pre-trib resurrection there would be no tribulation saints, but the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints so the resurrection could of not happened.

Also salvation is still available to the world until they take the mark of the beast which is three and one half years after the 7 years period begins, so the saints would remain on earth during that time.

Also the beast blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, and those that dwell in heaven, which he would not have to do that if the saints are gone for they represent the kingdom of God, for he is trying to convince the world that the Christian religion is false, and their God is not real, and there is no personal God to help mankind.

When the people that do not love God follow the beast then they make war against the saints, and then the saints are gathered unto Christ.

 

[CS1]

Faith comes by hearing the word. You cannot have faith if scripture doesn't mention it. Nobody so far can find scripture directly supporting it.

you have abad habit of allegorizing scripture and mixing many verses out of context. Jesus said " I come quickly " He spoke of us being ready the 5 wise Virgins and the five foolish. He spoke of the fig tree, and He spoke in what is know as the olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. As I said the coming of the Lord Biblical message is SOON!. The taking of the Church is soon when and where is debatable but it is going to happen. In all scripture Old and NEW God has provided super nature protection from the devil and judgement.
Old testament:

1. the Blood from death on the door post
2. crossing the Red Sea
3. The Ark Noah built
4. Sodom & Gomorra

Looking at How God protected HIS People then and ht HE said HE would do in the Writings of Paul and John the church will be protected and taken When ? know man knows the day or hour BUT we are in that season.

 

[CS1]

Paul said that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed who will claim to be God by evolving through the power of nature.

As long as salvation is available to the world the saints will remain on earth to witness of the truth.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to them, and the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there are souls under the altar that ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints that come out of tribulation join them.

Which the beast shall make war against the saints, and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father, and puts down the world, and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ.

There is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ, and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no pre-trib resurrection, and then tribulation saints that are resurrected, for there is only one resurrection of the saints.

When the resurrection happens Jesus said that the hypocrites will not join them, and once He closes the door nobody can enter, and said to be prepared and watch, for there is only one chance.

So if it is a pre-trib resurrection there would be no tribulation saints, but the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints so the resurrection could of not happened.

Also salvation is still available to the world until they take the mark of the beast which is three and one half years after the 7 years period begins, so the saints would remain on earth during that time.

Also the beast blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, and those that dwell in heaven, which he would not have to do that if the saints are gone for they represent the kingdom of God, for he is trying to convince the world that the Christian religion is false, and their God is not real, and there is no personal God to help mankind.

When the people that do not love God follow the beast then they make war against the saints, and then the saints are gathered unto Christ.

Jesus said this Gospel shall be preach than the end. The falling away is also a term that has been translated as taken outing apostasy

 

[Dave-L]

you have abad habit of allegorizing scripture and mixing many verses out of context. Jesus said " I come quickly " He spoke of us being ready the 5 wise Virgins and the five foolish. He spoke of the fig tree, and He spoke in what is know as the olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. As I said the coming of the Lord Biblical message is SOON!. The taking of the Church is soon when and where is debatable but it is going to happen. In all scripture Old and NEW God has provided super nature protection from the devil and judgement.
Old testament:

1. the Blood from death on the door post
2. crossing the Red Sea
3. The Ark Noah built
4. Sodom & Gomorra

Looking at How God protected HIS People then and ht HE said HE would do in the Writings of Paul and John the church will be protected and taken When ? know man knows the day or hour BUT we are in that season.

The early church understood this long before Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating in the 1800s.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul said that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed who will claim to be God by evolving through the power of nature.

As long as salvation is available to the world the saints will remain on earth to witness of the truth.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to them, and the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there are souls under the altar that ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints that come out of tribulation join them.

Which the beast shall make war against the saints, and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father, and puts down the world, and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ.

There is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ, and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no pre-trib resurrection, and then tribulation saints that are resurrected, for there is only one resurrection of the saints.

When the resurrection happens Jesus said that the hypocrites will not join them, and once He closes the door nobody can enter, and said to be prepared and watch, for there is only one chance.

So if it is a pre-trib resurrection there would be no tribulation saints, but the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints so the resurrection could of not happened.

Also salvation is still available to the world until they take the mark of the beast which is three and one half years after the 7 years period begins, so the saints would remain on earth during that time.

Also the beast blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, and those that dwell in heaven, which he would not have to do that if the saints are gone for they represent the kingdom of God, for he is trying to convince the world that the Christian religion is false, and their God is not real, and there is no personal God to help mankind.

When the people that do not love God follow the beast then they make war against the saints, and then the saints are gathered unto Christ.

""So if it is a pre-trib resurrection there would be no tribulation saints, but the Bible says the beast makes war against the saints so the resurrection could of not happened.""
Tribulation saints are the 5 foolish virgins

Pretrib rapture is easily defended.

 

[Absolutely]

Really?

Rev 7v9,10,14 states: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying,"Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" ...And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

To come "out of" (Greek prep. "ek") something, you first have to be "in it," these are Christians who have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb and come through the Great Tribulation with an overcoming faith and have "come out" of it by either martyrdom during it or by being raptured after it at the Lord's Second Coming along with the resurrected Church at the last (seventh) Trumpet. 1Cor 15v50-55, 2Thess 2v1-3, Rev 11v15-18.

They died near the beginning of the tribulation.
None make it through the gt.
It s as us the ac kills all of them.
It says all earths inhabitants take the mark.
The gt is Jacob's trouble. Not the brides trouble

 

[John146]

Faith comes by hearing the word. You cannot have faith if scripture doesn't mention it. Nobody so far can find scripture directly supporting it.

Question, what would be the purpose of only a small part of the body of Christ going through the tribulation?

 

[Dave-L]

Question, what would be the purpose of only a small part of the body of Christ going through the tribulation?

The great tribulation was for the Jews and happened in 70AD. All Christians endure tribulation as our calling. Death is the only escape. The rapture happens after the resurrection on the last day. Do you count it an honor to suffer and die for Jesus?

 

[notuptome]

Question, what would be the purpose of only a small part of the body of Christ going through the tribulation?

The church is not appointed to wrath. Those saints in the tribulation will be Jewish. The tribulation is focused on Israel not the Gentile world as far as redemption is concerned. The tribulation signals the end of the times of the Gentiles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The great tribulation was for the Jews and happened in 70AD. All Christians endure tribulation as our calling. Death is the only escape. The rapture happens after the resurrection on the last day. Do you count it an honor to suffer and die for Jesus?

Foolishness. The current tribulation of the saints is nothing like what the bible describes is coming in the great tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

Foolishness. The current tribulation of the saints is nothing like what the bible describes is coming in the great tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus said AD70 was the worst and it was for the Jews only.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The early church understood this long before Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating in the 1800s.

This notion has been debunked long ago. I'm surprised you're still repeating it. (Besides, who cares what she thought??)

[quoting old post]


[the two sentences by M.MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib ]

[quoting from wikipedia]

"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]

[...]

"References [...]

"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision" [ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).

"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]

____________

[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]


[end quoting that old post]


_____

pretty sure there are tons of other sources out there showing same.

Do your research, instead of merely repeating "already-debunked bunk"

 

[Dave-L]

This notion has been debunked long ago. I'm surprised you're still repeating it. (Besides, who cares what she thought??)

[quoting old post]


[the two sentences by M.MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib ]

[quoting from wikipedia]

"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]

[...]

"References [...]

"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision" [ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).

"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]

____________

[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]


[end quoting that old post]


_____

pretty sure there are tons of other sources out there showing same.

Do your research, instead of merely repeating "already-debunked bunk"

Debunked? How else do you explain it not having scripture's direct support?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Debunked? How else do you explain it not having scripture's direct support?

[v.3] "that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." (he's "revealed" at the START of the trib years, when, at that point, "the DOTL" will indeed "BE PRESENT").



The problem comes in when people mis-apply the Subject of verse 3 (INSTEAD, reaching/skipping CLEAR BACK OVER [/BYPASSING] verse 2, to grab verse 1's EVENT to "define" what verse 3 is speaking of... it isn't); and when people mis-define the word in v.3 [INJECTING additional "idea" INTO the word], and also mis-apply the word *FIRST* to the second item in verse 3 rather than the first item in verse 3 ONLY (to which it ONLY applies)... and so many more things that ppl do to screw up what Paul is ACTUALLY conveying in this passage, and which he REPEATS THREE TIMES here (and which is the SAME SEQUENCE he already spoke of in 1Th4-5).

 

[Runningman]

The second coming of Christ only happens once, not three, or four times. The second coming of Christ is after the great tribulation. That's when the event we call the "rapture" happens - at the return of Christ. This means Christians will go through the great tribulation. (Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation 19)

"But Christians are not appointed to wrath." Correct. The great tribulation is not God's wrath, but when the Restrainer is taken away, allowing the reign of the man of lawlessness, the anti-Christ, to begin. (2 Thessalonians 2)

The great tribulation is Satan's wrath (Revelation 12:12) unchecked and unchallenged because the Restrainer has been taken away.

God's wrath occurs during His great white thrown judgement. (Revelation 20)

 

[wolfwint]

You cannot prove something does not exist. But you cannot prove your claim that it exists and use scripture. The pre-trib rapture came from a 14-year-old girl burning up with a fever, while in a Pentecostal environment. Not from Scripture.

Well, you are right, if it is only from this Girls Vision and not from the word of God. We will see. But in the same way I dont believe that the tribulation time began in the past, as Martin Luther and other Reformators like Calvin claimed.
To call it an false doctrine I do not understand. Because nobody has the assurance that he is right in this matter.
Btw in the 4th century someone claimed it would be in the mid trib.

 

[Dave-L]

[v.3] "that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." (he's "revealed" at the START of the trib years, when, at that point, "the DOTL" will indeed "BE PRESENT").



The problem comes in when people misapply the Subject of verse 3 (INSTEAD, reaching CLEAR BACK OVER verse 2, to grab verse 1's EVENT to "define" what verse 3 is speaking of... it isn't); and when people mis-define the word in v.3, and also mis-apply the word *FIRST* to the second item in verse 3 rather than the first item in verse 3 ONLY (to which it ONLY applies)... and so many more things that ppl do to screw up what Paul is ACTUALLY conveying in this passage, and which he REPEATS THREE TIMES here.

Departure = falling away into apostasy.

 

[John146]

The great tribulation was for the Jews and happened in 70AD. ?

70 AD is the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen or ever will we?

 

[Dave-L]

Well, you are right, if it is only from this Girls Vision and not from the word of God. We will see. But in the same way I dont believe that the tribulation time began in the past, as Martin Luther and other Reformators like Calvin claimed.
To call it an false doctrine I do not understand. Because nobody has the assurance that he is right in this matter.
Btw in the 4th century someone claimed it would be in the mid trib.

Jesus said to his present audience to leave town when they saw the Roman armies. That it was the worst tribulation ever, never to be seen again.