The Error of KJV-Onlyism

[Bible_Highlighter]

To all:

Anyone who wants to get into the textual issues with the Greek that underlies the English of the KJV in defending it and know the popular Critical Text proponents and their agenda, I would highly recommend Nick Sayers Channel on YouTube. Nick goes long. He often speaks live for 4 hours or so, and I will watch his videos in parts over a couple days sometimes. He provides a lot of good information. Every once in a while he will go a little off topic and say things I may not always agree with. But he offers really great info for those who want to learn. Nick Sayers also interviews many who defend the TR and KJV, as well.

Here is Nick’s playlist on his interviews:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqB_aLXrOZ55_NzBwkYQ2aFStHCj9ZrJg&si=lH_jO2zLqxcyDhOJ

Here is his playlist on Mark Ward:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqB_aLXrOZ56iiCgS5GhQTc3m7pArL7JB&si=Utomaa8RIycjnDTI

If you want to see the best of Nick’s stuff in general to watch, make sure you select the “Live” tab button at the top bar in the video section on his YouTube channel (Seeing most of his stuff is done live). This will show the KJV debates, the TR / KJV interviews, and critiques of Mark Ward, and James White’s book, etcetera. Note: If you just see his regular video section, you will not see all his good content.

Nick Sayers just started to do KJV debates so there is only one KJV debate listed on his channel so far.
He recently had a debate between Peter Van Kleek vs. TurrentinFan (Francis). I was disappointed with Kleek in his recent debate. He had a good beginning but he did not give us good reasons for his points in the beginning to back up his claims. Note: I would have provided a list of changed doctrines in detail but he did not do that. Kleek believes the Scrivener Greek (1881) is the inspired Word of God in Koine Greek today. But Kleek did not give us any good reasons why he believes this is the case. I actually have reasons to show that the hand of God is upon the KJV (Which I believe is a unique form of the TR as stated by Edward Hills). Here is my short list.

Why The Hand of God is Upon the KJB:

1. Two Textus Receptus translators were martyred (Tyndale, & Rogers).
2. King James helped to temporarily unite two Christian groups that were in opposition to each with the KJV (Puritans and Anglicans).
3. The largest assembly of the best translators in the world were gathered together. This assembly was unlike any other before them or after.
4. KJB and its translators were almost destroyed by a super bomb.
5. KJB was prophetically chosen in a language that is the world language of today (Note: Granted, while 1600s English is not the world language of today, it is still English and a part of Modern English we have today).
6. The three great revivals were a result of the KJV (Compare that to the fruit of the Modern Bibles in this Laodician age).
7. KJB is the most printed book in the world and is the standard English text among believers (Being known for hundreds of years as THE Bible).
8. The KJV is a Reformation or Protestant text. England spread out to the world and helped to form Protestant Christianity in English speaking countries and beyond.
9. KJB was used to help end slavery (Frederick Douglas, etc.).
10. Christians were united over one text (i.e, His Word does not return void). They not only were united by one text, but they also believed that the KJV is the inerrant, and perfect words of God throughout history. While they many have disagreed on theology or beliefs over the years, they were united by one text in what it said.
11. Everyone today in English speaking countries still speaks like the King James Bible (Example: Drop in the bucket, the writing is on the wall, the apple of my eye, etcetera).
12. The KJV was predicted to be obsolete and replaced by certain Modern Bibles in the 1700’s, 1800’s, and 1900s (But this did not happen). In other words, the KJV has endured the test of time and against much opposition. Today it is still the most attacked translation, and yet many believers still trust and use it today as the very words of God. Many have not caved in to God’s words being like silly putty that can be updated every few years by some new exciting manuscript discovery that radically changes doctrine for the worse and not for the better.

I hope you enjoy Nick’s channel everyone.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you all and stay safe.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I am aware of the King James Bible Research Council.

Phil Stringer is probably my sole favorite on the KJV Research Council.

I did not see all of his videos yet. My favorite videos I seen by him are:

This one…

And this one:

View attachment 265646



Nick Sayers has some good videos on false attacks by Textual Critics. He goes into the videos by Mark Ward, and others. They are baseless. Nick Sayers is currently reviewing James White‘s book “King James Only Controversy.” Nick explains in his book how James White miscategorizes KJV-Onlyists. Nick Sayers channel is probably my favorite channel so far on the Bibliology topic (Which defends the TR and KJV).

My view on inspiration is more like “illumination“ according to Job 32:8 in the KJV.
Many Modern Translations remove the word “inspiration” in Job 32:8 and therefore remove the connection to 2 Timothy 3:16.
In short, I believe that the KJV Translators were given select moments of illumination (inspiration) at certain key points in time while translating. God’s providence in his preserving His Word ensured that He would have intervened to give them the understanding (inspiration) for the final words that would end up in the final draft of the KJV. “Double inspiration“ (Peter Ruckman) claims it not only preservation of the original writings but it also communicates new revelation. I don’t exactly agree that this is the case for the 7th purification or final edition of the KJV (Which I believe is the Pure Cambridge KJV edition by A.W. Pollard). I am in disagreement with many of the things Ruckman believes (like his racist claims, his bad mouth, and his odd claims about aliens, and his multiple divorces, etc.).

Glad you are familiar with Dr Stringer.
He has been a wealth of insight. I'll listen to the ones you posted if I haven't already.

I'll probably subscribe to Nick Sayers channel now that I know he has a separate one of his own.

It seems that a very few members of this forum have the mistaken idea that those of us who believe in the true doctrine of preservation are Ruckmanites. They like to throw Bible believers into that box.

I got weird unfounded accusations after I got saved and learned why I should believe the Bible; not knowing where the critics of faith in God's Word were getting those wild false accusations from. Eventually, I learned years later of Peter Ruckman.
Now I see that they took the unbiblical teachings of his to classify the KJ Bible believers as promoters of his heresies.
I have as much time for the false accusers as I do Ruckman. Both camps serve to undermine the faith of the simple.

On the other hand, the King James Research Council does a good job of teaching the truth and equipping the saints.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Nick Sayers live right now.

Is the King James 100% Accurate?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Nick Sayers live right now.

Is the King James 100% Accurate?

Just to let you know it is a KJV debate.

This is a great debate so far.
It is a debate between Nick Sayers vs. James Snapp.

Check it out.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Then you cannot use the same argument against preachers of falsehood who happen to use other translations.

That won’t stop you, because you hold to double standards.

There is a difference here. The very Modern Bible Movement most today follow began with the Revised Version (Based upon the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) which was an English translation created by liberals Westcott and Hort. In fact, Westcott was clearly into praying to dead saints (Which is a theme we see pop-up again every once in a while in the Modern Bible Movement) (Note: We do not see this problem with the TR line or stream of Bibles). In addition, George Vance Smith was a Unitarian who boasted of the doctrinal changes in the Revised Version that favored Unitarianism. He wrote a book on it called “Texts and Margins of the Revised New Testament.” You can just read it for yourself for free online. Today, Unitarians still make pilgrimages to see the Sinaiticus manuscript because they seen it as a win for their Unitarian movement. I also can demonstrate Catholic ideas starting in the Revised Version and these ideas only grow in later Modern Bibles. This is because the Catholic Church started to get involved in the ecumenical Modern Bible Movement. Carlo Maria Martini (a Catholic cardinal) worked on the Nestle and Aland text in the 70s (beginning with the 25th edition I do believe). People who were once praised in Textual Criticism are now unbelievers like Bart Erhman, Rick Beckman, etcetera. This is why college students lose their faith because the school teaches you to doubt the Bible and not trust it. In short, the problem with the Modern Bible Movement is that it has a shape shifter critical apparatus and conflicting Modern English translations, which simply sows confusion. However, God is not the author of confusion. There can only be one Word of God and not many. It is also illogical that God’s Word has been lost for hundreds of years and we are still seeking to find His precise words and scholars are bickering between each other over the differences (Which can change at some new and exciting discovery of a manuscript in some cave somewhere). It’s just dumb and illogical. Everyone can be their own authority. Where is one’s authority? Is it in James White? Or is it in Dan Wallace? They do not agree with each other in every instance in the Bible.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Glad you are familiar with Dr Stringer.

Yeah, I have not seen all KJV videos by Phil. I would like to check them out sometime.

He has been a wealth of insight.

I agree.

I'll listen to the ones you posted if I haven't already.

I think you will enjoy them.

I'll probably subscribe to Nick Sayers channel now that I know he has a separate one of his own.

Nick Sayers has been my go-to listening channel now. He has a ton of good content defending the TR / KJV and great points against the critics. He critiques videos by many in the Modern Bible Movement, and he gives good reasons. There are great nuggets of gold I have gotten from Nick’s videos.

Just make sure you click on the “Live” tab or button to see his best or most important videos on his channel (Seeing Nick does most of his videos as live).

It seems that a very few members of this forum have the mistaken idea that those of us who believe in the true doctrine of preservation are Ruckmanites. They like to throw Bible believers into that box.

Yeah. It’s a shame.
According to James White’s book (KJV only controversy), even Majority Text folk are KJV-Onlyists.
Not even all TR folks think the KJV is perfect. Yet, James White says they are KJV-only.
Nick Sayers is TR but he also believes the KJV is a perfect and a unique form of the TR.
Nick does not believe the KJV has errors in it. He defends the KJV masterfully.

I got weird unfounded accusations after I got saved and learned why I should believe the Bible; not knowing where the critics of faith in God's Word were getting those wild false accusations from. Eventually, I learned years later of Peter Ruckman.
Now I see that they took the unbiblical teachings of his to classify the KJ Bible believers as promoters of his heresies.
I have as much time for the false accusers as I do Ruckman. Both camps serve to undermine the faith of the simple.

Yeah. Again, it’s a shame these things happen. Folks simply just need to do their homework.

On the other hand, the King James Research Council does a good job of teaching the truth and equipping the saints.

Yes, they have some great stuff. Nick’s channel is my current favorite at this time. He is less preachy and less focused on making the videos look pretty and he is more focused on the Bibliology or information that you need. Nick started a Byzantine school video series. Currently this is going into the origins of Erasmus and his credentials, and others surrounding him right now (Which the critics want to downplay or ignore). I think in time he may teach some Koine Greek in this series. Not sure yet. But so far it is a good series. What is cool is that there are after shows that you can participate in with live video (after a KJV debate takes place). It’s a separate video that will eventually appear where you can offer you comments on the debate or in defending the KJV in general (By live video chat). I have not participated yet, but I would like to (When time permits - Lord willing).

Note: Sometimes I will do a task at home, and just listen to Nick speak. Great channel. A must watch for every KJV believer.

I hope to see you comment on his channel there in the future.

 

[Dino246]

There is a difference here. The very Modern Bible Movement most today follow began with the Revised Version (Based upon the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) which was an English translation created by liberals Westcott and Hort. In fact, Westcott was clearly into praying to dead saints (Which is a theme we see pop-up again every once in a while in the Modern Bible Movement) (Note: We do not see this problem with the TR line or stream of Bibles). In addition, George Vance Smith was a Unitarian who boasted of the doctrinal changes in the Revised Version that favored Unitarianism. He wrote a book on it called “Texts and Margins of the Revised New Testament.” You can just read it for yourself for free online. Today, Unitarians still make pilgrimages to see the Sinaiticus manuscript because they seen it as a win for their Unitarian movement. I also can demonstrate Catholic ideas starting in the Revised Version and these ideas only grow in later Modern Bibles. This is because the Catholic Church started to get involved in the ecumenical Modern Bible Movement. Carlo Maria Martini (a Catholic cardinal) worked on the Nestle and Aland text in the 70s (beginning with the 25th edition I do believe). People who were once praised in Textual Criticism are now unbelievers like Bart Erhman, Rick Beckman, etcetera. This is why college students lose their faith because the school teaches you to doubt the Bible and not trust it. In short, the problem with the Modern Bible Movement is that it has a shape shifter critical apparatus and conflicting Modern English translations, which simply sows confusion. However, God is not the author of confusion. There can only be one Word of God and not many. It is also illogical that God’s Word has been lost for hundreds of years and we are still seeking to find His precise words and scholars are bickering between each other over the differences (Which can change at some new and exciting discovery of a manuscript in some cave somewhere). It’s just dumb and illogical. Everyone can be their own authority. Where is one’s authority? Is it in James White? Or is it in Dan Wallace? They do not agree with each other in every instance in the Bible.

Don't bother defending someone else's sin.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Yeah, I have not seen all KJV videos by Phil. I would like to check them out sometime.



I agree.



I think you will enjoy them.



Nick Sayers has been my go-to listening channel now. He has a ton of good content defending the TR / KJV and great points against the critics. He critiques videos by many in the Modern Bible Movement, and he gives good reasons. There are great nuggets of gold I have gotten from Nick’s videos.

Just make sure you click on the “Live” tab or button to see his best or most important videos on his channel (Seeing Nick does most of his videos as live).



Yeah. It’s a shame.
According to James White’s book (KJV only controversy), even Majority Text folk are KJV-Onlyists.
Not even all TR folks think the KJV is perfect. Yet, James White says they are KJV-only.
Nick Sayers is TR but he also believes the KJV is a perfect and a unique form of the TR.
Nick does not believe the KJV has errors in it. He defends the KJV masterfully.



Yeah. Again, it’s a shame these things happen. Folks simply just need to do their homework.



Yes, they have some great stuff. Nick’s channel is my current favorite at this time. He is less preachy and less focused on making the videos look pretty and he is more focused on the Bibliology or information that you need. Nick started a Byzantine school video series. Currently this is going into the origins of Erasmus and his credentials, and others surrounding him right now (Which the critics want to downplay or ignore). I think in time he may teach some Koine Greek in this series. Not sure yet. But so far it is a good series. What is cool is that there are after shows that you can participate in with live video (after a KJV debate takes place). It’s a separate video that will eventually appear where you can offer you comments on the debate or in defending the KJV in general (By live video chat). I have not participated yet, but I would like to (When time permits - Lord willing).

Note: Sometimes I will do a task at home, and just listen to Nick speak. Great channel. A must watch for every KJV believer.

I hope to see you comment on his channel there in the future.

That's good to hear.
Is the name of his channel Revolution?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

That's good to hear.
Is the name of his channel Revolution?

Yes.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

There are some people who teach basically that the King James Bible is word-for-word inspired.

And there are some people who teach that the earth is FLAT, and that we've never been to the moon.

BUT HEY!!! it's nothing but "Theology", and a good theologian skilled in the are cam make the Bible say all sorts of stupid stuff, and even "Prove it" scripturally. HEY!!! the Rapture has been PROVEN SCRIPTURALLY to occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!! I can hardly wait!!!

Bottom line - you can't go too far wrong with the KJV. It's been MY "Main Squeeze" for 60 years. and I've learned a good many of the "Work-arounds" for the places where the translation is inaccurate.

BUT KJVO!!!!??? that's just another CULT theology, as well as a fair percentage of Denominational theology as well.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Don't bother defending someone else's sin.

That really does not address the issues I brought up.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Yes.

Got it and hit the bell for alerts.
Listening now.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

And there are some people who teach that the earth is FLAT, and that we've never been to the moon.

BUT HEY!!! it's nothing but "Theology", and a good theologian skilled in the are cam make the Bible say all sorts of stupid stuff, and even "Prove it" scripturally. HEY!!! the Rapture has been PROVEN SCRIPTURALLY to occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!! I can hardly wait!!!

Bottom line - you can't go too far wrong with the KJV. It's been MY "Main Squeeze" for 60 years. and I've learned a good many of the "Work-arounds" for the places where the translation is inaccurate.

BUT KJVO!!!!??? that's just another CULT theology, as well as a fair percentage of Denominational theology as well.

Cult theology? I hope you're being sarcastic.
The protestant world was KJV only for centuries.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

And there are some people who teach that the earth is FLAT, and that we've never been to the moon.

BUT HEY!!! it's nothing but "Theology", and a good theologian skilled in the are cam make the Bible say all sorts of stupid stuff, and even "Prove it" scripturally. HEY!!! the Rapture has been PROVEN SCRIPTURALLY to occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!! I can hardly wait!!!

Bottom line - you can't go too far wrong with the KJV. It's been MY "Main Squeeze" for 60 years. and I've learned a good many of the "Work-arounds" for the places where the translation is inaccurate.

BUT KJVO!!!!??? that's just another CULT theology, as well as a fair percentage of Denominational theology as well.

A cult has a leader. King James Bible believers do not have a cult leader. So that is false slander. Besides, you may be shocked to know that statements of faith in that the KJB is the perfect Word of God since the mid to late 1600s.

The General Baptists of England published the "Orthodox Creed" In 1678. It says, "And by the holy Scriptures we understand the canonical books of the Old and New Testament, AS THEY ARE NOW TRANSLATED INTO OUR ENGLISH MOTHER TONGUE, of which there hath NEVER been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant churches of Christ to this day." They then list the books of the Old and New Testament and then say, "All which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the Rule of faith and life."

This is just one of many such statements of faith over the years.

In reality, in 1881, Westcott and Hort who were liberals, into Spiritism, and friendly to Unitarianism had started the Modern Bible Movement you see today. There are tons of bad doctrines found in Modern Bibles, as well. In short, defenders of Modern Bibles over the KJV are the new kids on the block. They cannot trace their Bible through history back to the Apostles. In fact, Modern Scholarship don’t have the precise words of God. They are still looking for them. So if you favor Modern Scholarship, then you don’t have a Bible you can hold in your hands and declare it to be the inerrant and inspired words of God.

 

[John146]

And there are some people who teach that the earth is FLAT, and that we've never been to the moon.

BUT HEY!!! it's nothing but "Theology", and a good theologian skilled in the are cam make the Bible say all sorts of stupid stuff, and even "Prove it" scripturally. HEY!!! the Rapture has been PROVEN SCRIPTURALLY to occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988!! I can hardly wait!!!

Bottom line - you can't go too far wrong with the KJV. It's been MY "Main Squeeze" for 60 years. and I've learned a good many of the "Work-arounds" for the places where the translation is inaccurate.

BUT KJVO!!!!??? that's just another CULT theology, as well as a fair percentage of Denominational theology as well.

Sounds like you are far superior than the KJV translators. Could you work your way through the KJV and correct all the mistakes so we all can have a translation we can trust 100%?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Sounds like you are far superior than the KJV translators. Could you work your way through the KJV and correct all the mistakes so we all can have a translation we can trust 100%?

Here's one you can do for yourself: John 21:15-17 where the meaning of the passage is lost through BAD translation, get your Greek interlinear and check out the word LOVE in the passage. It SHOULD open your eyes.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

A cult has a leader.

True, and it's always the same one - satan.

King James Bible believers do not have a cult leader. So that is false slander. Besides, you may be shocked to know that statements of faith in that the KJB is the perfect Word of God since the mid to late 1600s.

You're apparently somewhat of a "leader" yourself, since you're selling the "KJVO fantasy line".

AS I stated before, I'm definitely a "KJVP" using the KJV as my preferred translation (Learned to read in it back in "47/"48. I DO NOT, however ascribe to the silly fallacy that the KJV is anything like PERFECT, or without lousy translations of passages, and/or outright ERROR (both real and imagined. YOU can delude yourself into believing that it is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, if you want (apparently already have).

you don’t have a Bible you can hold in your hands and declare it to be the inerrant and inspired words of God.

However I CAN Declare the Bible (in whatever version) as completely ADEQUATE to its purpose as the WRITTEN RECORD of God's word.

Most Modern translations are also completely ADEQUATE to their purpose as the WRITTEN RECORD of God's Word. I wouldn't trust the "Inspired version (Mormon), or the "New World Version (JWs), but the NIV, or OASV, or LIVING all tell the same story, and JESUS promised that TRUTH / FAITH comes from God's WORD TO YOU via the Holy Spirit, and WISDOM is freely given if you ask (as long as you ask single-mindedly) and it'll never disagree with the Bible text. It will often and DOES disgree with "Man's Theology" but that's unimportant unless you take "Man's theology" too seriously. IGNORANCE of the Biblical text renders you FAIR GAME foe deception.

 

[presidente]

A cult has a leader. King James Bible believers do not have a cult leader. So that is false slander. Besides, you may be shocked to know that statements of faith in that the KJB is the perfect Word of God since the mid to late 1600s.

The General Baptists of England published the "Orthodox Creed" In 1678.

This is not evidence for KJV Onlyism. It may be evidence that the early Baptist movement might have been just a bit wonky.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

True, and it's always the same one - satan.



You're apparently somewhat of a "leader" yourself, since you're selling the "KJVO fantasy line".

AS I stated before, I'm definitely a "KJVP" using the KJV as my preferred translation (Learned to read in it back in "47/"48. I DO NOT, however ascribe to the silly fallacy that the KJV is anything like PERFECT, or without lousy translations of passages, and/or outright ERROR (both real and imagined. YOU can delude yourself into believing that it is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, if you want (apparently already have).



However I CAN Declare the Bible (in whatever version) as completely ADEQUATE to its purpose as the WRITTEN RECORD of God's word.

Most Modern translations are also completely ADEQUATE to their purpose as the WRITTEN RECORD of God's Word. I wouldn't trust the "Inspired version (Mormon), or the "New World Version (JWs), but the NIV, or OASV, or LIVING all tell the same story, and JESUS promised that TRUTH / FAITH comes from God's WORD TO YOU via the Holy Spirit, and WISDOM is freely given if you ask (as long as you ask single-mindedly) and it'll never disagree with the Bible text. It will often and DOES disgree with "Man's Theology" but that's unimportant unless you take "Man's theology" too seriously. IGNORANCE of the Biblical text renders you FAIR GAME foe deception.

First, I am just going to pretend that you didn’t double down on your baseless claim that KJV-only is a cult (without any shred of evidence).

Second, I have demonstrated that even the so-called reputable Modern Bibles teach false doctrines back in post #1,777 of this thread. The ball is in your court to answer them. There is even more that I could add to that list, too. It will be in my 150 Reasons for the KJB being the Pure Word of God for Today.

Three, did you just ignore my point about how Christians since the mid to late 1600s believed the KJV was perfect and inerrant for hundreds of years? Were they in a cult, too? The Westcott and Hort text did not even come on to the scene until 1881. Even then, your Modern Bible Movement did not really become popular until the 1970s or 80s with the popularity of the neutered NIV (Which is even called liberal by textual critics today like James White).

You just have simply not done your homework on this topic and you are just believing what the popular scholars say (without checking their words to see if it is true or not).

Please come back after you spent some serious time studying this topic more. Do not just believe the Modern Scholar blindly without checking what they say. If you continue to parrot nonsense it will just show how uneducated you are.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

This is not evidence for KJV Onlyism. It may be evidence that the early Baptist movement might have been just a bit wonky.

Not so. Here is the article of a list of statements of faith over the years.

http://brandplucked.com/confesskjb.htm

There were also the King James loyalists who burned down warehouses of the updated Paris KJV (1762) and the updated Blayney KJV (1769).

https://greatsite.com/the-1611-king-james-bible/

The KJB became popular in the mid 1600s and was regarded as the very words of God by many in English speaking regions. The Westcott and Hort Modern Bible movement are the new kids on the block. You didn’t have a Bible in church history until 1881. They created a never before seen sham-wow text that was artificial. They smashed two manuscripts together that disagreed with each other in thousands of places in the gospels alone. Then there is all the silly textual critical rules and heretics attached, as well. The Modern Bible Movement is a joke.

The Modern Bible Movement are for folks who do not want the precise words of God. They are happy to have a shape shifter text.