The Effect of Eve's Sin on Women

[Dino246]

Have to inform you that talking to me about a lot of things will either a.) cause your mind to expand or will b.) cause your mind to squirm in protest.

I've read a few of your posts. Frankly, you come across as a self-righteous, arrogant know-it-all. The statement above does much to reinforce that assessment. You might find your ideas are received better when you don't assume you know more than anyone else. I've been a Christian for many decades, and I have never encountered someone who is both very knowledgeable and an arrogant jerk. Regardless of how much you (think that you) know, don't be the latter.

As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 8:1-2, "Knowledge makes one conceited, but love edifies people. If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know."

I wrote, "All the things in the Bible are relevant and operational right here and now." The Israelites were told to physically stone people caught in certain sins. We are not doing that today... but the principle behind it is still operational. Believe me, if you lived with a witch who wanted you dead, you wouldn't want to suffer a witch to live either. But honestly, God's judgment lingers on people who would have been stoned in the past. The difference now is they have time to repent; the same judgment of death still hangs over them.

The judgment is no different than it was then: the wages of sin is death, but the administration of that sentence is no longer by the community. The only way out of that sentence is by saving faith in the Person, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[SaysWhat]

I wrote, "All the things in the Bible are relevant and operational right here and now." The Israelites were told to physically stone people caught in certain sins. We are not doing that today... but the principle behind it is still operational. Believe me, if you lived with a witch who wanted you dead, you wouldn't want to suffer a witch to live either. But honestly, God's judgment lingers on people who would have been stoned in the past. The difference now is they have time to repent; the same judgment of death still hangs over them. So while the application of that command/scripture to stone certain people has changed (as we see with Jesus and the woman caught in adultery), the essence/reality of it never will (and therefore Jesus told that woman to stop sinning so that the judgment/stoning could no longer hang over her).

The Bible says tons about God's Word such as that it is sweeter than honey from the honeycomb (Ps. 19), it is a discerner of the innermost and most hidden attitudes and feelings and beliefs in everyone's hearts (Heb. 4:12-13), and that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2Tim. 3:16-17).

So yes, you have certain things in Scripture that are not practiced today; but those things along with every other thing in Scripture are still operational (which means 'ready to work' or 'relevant'), not necessarily operating (which means 'currently working'). Military forces in waiting or on reserve are still operational even if they aren't operating. God's Word never goes extinct. The initial or previous use may go extinct but the Word or command or prophecy remains. This is how all moves of God (revivals, etc.) are: they reach an end on our natural plane-- like the Azusa Street revival-- but never go out, stop, or are extinguished in the spirit. God's Word is alive (and active: Heb. 4); it never dies and can't die.

That would be lawlessness, can't change the old to fit the new.

Matthew 15
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't want to go off topic, but, yes, I have looked into it many times. I am guessing that your emphasis is on the bold-faced part, and even greater emphasis is on the bold-faced and capitalized part.

Whatever the case may be, I have looked into both of those things extensively, but we should try to keep this thread on topic for the sake of the poster who started it. Either one might be a good topic for another thread.

Ok I guess it wouldn’t relate

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Ok I guess it wouldn’t relate

If you want to start a thread about it, I will check it out and more than likely participate.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God didn't curse mankind; he cursed the earth and multiplied the woman's sorrow and conception for the sake of mankind. "your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" is just saying that she will continue to desire him, despite the fact that her sorrow and conception are multiplied.

what does it mean by “ and he shall rule over you ?”

“ your desire will be for your husband and he shall rule over you “

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you want to start a thread about it, I will check it out and more than likely participate.

no I’m good I was just wondering if you would see the connection to something else you had said . I can’t even really remember which comment it was at this point .

It was relating to why Moses words are actually contrary at many points to Jesus words and why we should go with the things Jesus taught . It’s not a big deal friend honestly

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In general I agree with you, but I disagree with your bolded sentence. The Law is not "operational" for Christians today; it is a historical reality that has relevance in understanding the new covenant in Christ, but we are not "under" the Law the way ancient Israelites were.

“These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭



“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

May I ask you a sincere question?

How can you claim that Adam's placement over Eve is a remnant of the curse of the law in the light of the following?

Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Eph 5:28
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Eph 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Here, Paul called the husband and wife relationship a great mystery in that it was originally ordained to show the relationship of Christ and his church to the world, and it was ordained before sin ever entered into the world. How then is this allegedly a remnant of the curse of the law?

Let me pause for a moment to quickly address the massive elephant in the room.

From what I see in scripture, a husband, as the head of his own wife, is called to lay his life down for her as Christ laid his life down for the church while nourishing and cherishing her as his own flesh. In other words, this headship is not a matter of "Hey, Babe! I am the king of this castle! Now, go and make me a sandwich!" Instead, it is a man having to demonstrate the most sacrificial type of love to his own wife that this world has ever known or that which mimics Christ's sacrificial love for his church. That is a tall order. I am not married, but if I was, then I would wish that I had been born a woman as opposed to being the man that I am. Why? Because the wife has it much easier in the marriage relationship in that she needs to revere her husband who is sacrificially and selflessly laying his life down for her. Granted, a wife will have to make sacrifices of her own, and especially if children become a part of the equation, but God place more accountability upon the husband as the head.

I think that these types of conversations go astray quickly because of a wrong understanding of what headship entails. It is not abusive dominance, but sacrificial selflessness instead. Are there many cases of abuse? Unfortunately, there are, but this is not what God sanctioned, and I am certainly not sanctioning the same here either. Abuses aside, we should not throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. In other words, there still is God-ordained authority within the confines of a marriage, and if followed properly, no women will be abused.

“How can you claim that Adam's placement over Eve is a remnant of the curse of the law in the light of the following?”

in light of everything you said about marriage in Christ I can still acknolwedge that God set Adam in authority over eve just like Paul said because it also says it in genesis . It’s not just a claim I’m making

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

before they sinned …the blessing is like you are describing a partnership teo as one “ they “ them “

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after they sinned because eve was the one who first followed the lie . Paul is saying

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul is talking about genesis three right there using it as his argument as to why he doesn’t allow women to teach .

If you look at the Old Testament women were sometimes like property sold into marriage made servants ruled by men continually . But it’s not Gods plan or design it happened as a result of sin .

In Christ our sin is remitted so it’s back to the image of God and a godly state of marriage love and be loved lay down your life to protect your wife provide for be gentle with ect all that’s true . But it doesn’t even address the fact of what happened when eve was led into sin and then led Adam into sin and the judgement that followed upon each

“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

note biblically if you had no son , you had no hier even a female in Christ is an hier and equal it’s something that existed under the law because of all of mans transgressions

 

[studentoftheword]

Interesting read here ===

Atsav: TOIL & SORROW, and a New Look at Genesis 3:16
Jun 9, 2024 hebrew word lessons

https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2024/06/09/atsav-toil-sorrow-and-a-new-look-at-genesis-316/

HARD WORK/TOIL/GRIEF/SORROW: Atsav, verb (Stong’s 6087, 6088); masculine noun (Strong’s 6089, 6090, 6092, 6093); feminine noun (Strong’s 6094).
Root verb: עָצַב
Sounds like: atz-ahv

One of the wonderful things about reading the Hebrew Bible in the original language is the discovery of long-held misinterpretations and its impact on the full story of the Gospel message.

A study on the Hebrew word atsav highlights a particular Biblical text that has been widely misinterpreted throughout history and it changes the narrative of what has often been described as the Curse of Eve.

After Eve and Adam sinned in the Garden they learned of their consequences for disobedience. They had to leave YHWH’s perfect Garden and go into the wilderness. There life would be drastically different and YHWH spoke to each of them about what life would be like for them as wilderness residents:

Genesis 3:16 (NASB)
To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall deliver children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Did this mean that from that point on, women would find the action of giving birth painful? That seems to be the interpretation according to most translations, but actually the text says nothing of the sort.

Here is a more literal (Hebrew word by Hebrew word) translation of the verse:
Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said,

“Greatly multiplied will be your hard work [its’vohnek עִצְּבוֹנֵ֣ךְ] and conception; in sorrow [b-etsev בְּעֶ֖צֶב] you shall bear children. To your husband your desire shall be, and he shall rule over you.”

This passage was not talking about pain in childbirth; it was talking about the difficulties in conception and the emotionally draining hard work it would be to conceive, carry, and raise a child. The Hebrew word for hard work (atsav) was then repeated in Adam’s curse:

Genesis 3:17b-19
[YHWH to Adam:] “Cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labour [b-itsa’vohn בְּעִצָּבוֹן֙] you shall eat from it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; yet you shall eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Eve and Adam’s curse had nothing to do with bodily pain. What we are being told is that for life to continue in the wilderness, humanity would have to work hard (toil) to continue their existence.

Struggling to obtain food and struggling to continue the human life-line was what life in the wilderness would look like. This hard work was wrapped up in sorrow and grief.

Many wives and husbands would feel the sting of infertility and many would also feel the sting of famine. The dynamics between wife and husband would also change.

In Eden, YHWH called them to be co-rulers of earth, but in the wilderness male humans would pull rank on their wives and expect submission. Whereas Eden was a feast amongst equals, the wilderness was a barren place of toil and inequality.
Humans would have to work extra hard to see any results of a flourishing life and any success would be tainted with constant hardship. Humans would live, but not without toil and tears.

For the record, atsav was never used to describe physical pain and so we can safely say that women were NOT cursed to have pain in childbirth, although it doesn’t exclude the possibility that pain would occur. Physical pain is often a bi-product of hard labour.

Hebrew words which do describe physical pain (although they are also used to describe emotional and metaphorical pain) are ka’av (Strong’s 3510), k’ehv (Strong’s 3511), makov (Strong’s 4341), khal’khalah (Strong’s 2479), tsiyr (Strong’s 6735). Some of those words were used to describe the pain of giving birth, but none of them were atsav.

It should also be noted that these so-called curses were not punishments from YHWH.
First to note is that the only things actually cursed in the Genesis 3 account was the snake (Genesis 3:14) and the ground (Genesis 3:17).

The consequences that Adam and Eve would face were merely the result of living in the wilderness, outside the Garden of Eden.
The moment they followed the snake’s instructions was the moment they chose their new Governor, and now they had to move into his domain.

The wilderness was far away from where YHWH wanted humans to be, and fortunately He would not abandon them in their darkest hour. The words of Genesis 3:16-17 were merely the results of what they had done to themselves.

God had the graciousness to connect with Eve and Adam personally, to describe to them what might be the hardest and most shocking changes they would face in their new habitat… nothing would come easily. Everything would be hard work and it would break their hearts.

What a culture shock for Eve and Adam to experience and what a kindness it was for YHWH to break the news to each of them personally. After this sad exchange, YHWH gently covered them in clothing that He made Himself and sent them out into their new land. But He would not abandon them there.

 

[ValleyAnt]

Within one generation, murder (fratricide) entered the world. Cain killed Abel. By extension, Cain eliminated an entire line of people that could have come from "righteous Abel".

I never thought of the generational implications there. What would Abel's line have looked like? Do you have an idea?

 

[ValleyAnt]

Interesting read here ===

Atsav: TOIL & SORROW, and a New Look at Genesis 3:16
Jun 9, 2024 hebrew word lessons

https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2024/06/09/atsav-toil-sorrow-and-a-new-look-at-genesis-316/

HARD WORK/TOIL/GRIEF/SORROW: Atsav, verb (Stong’s 6087, 6088); masculine noun (Strong’s 6089, 6090, 6092, 6093); feminine noun (Strong’s 6094).
Root verb: עָצַב
Sounds like: atz-ahv

One of the wonderful things about reading the Hebrew Bible in the original language is the discovery of long-held misinterpretations and its impact on the full story of the Gospel message.

A study on the Hebrew word atsav highlights a particular Biblical text that has been widely misinterpreted throughout history and it changes the narrative of what has often been described as the Curse of Eve.

After Eve and Adam sinned in the Garden they learned of their consequences for disobedience. They had to leave YHWH’s perfect Garden and go into the wilderness. There life would be drastically different and YHWH spoke to each of them about what life would be like for them as wilderness residents:

Genesis 3:16 (NASB)
To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall deliver children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Did this mean that from that point on, women would find the action of giving birth painful? That seems to be the interpretation according to most translations, but actually the text says nothing of the sort.

Here is a more literal (Hebrew word by Hebrew word) translation of the verse:
Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said,

“Greatly multiplied will be your hard work [its’vohnek עִצְּבוֹנֵ֣ךְ] and conception; in sorrow [b-etsev בְּעֶ֖צֶב] you shall bear children. To your husband your desire shall be, and he shall rule over you.”

This passage was not talking about pain in childbirth; it was talking about the difficulties in conception and the emotionally draining hard work it would be to conceive, carry, and raise a child. The Hebrew word for hard work (atsav) was then repeated in Adam’s curse:

Genesis 3:17b-19
[YHWH to Adam:] “Cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labour [b-itsa’vohn בְּעִצָּבוֹן֙] you shall eat from it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; yet you shall eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Eve and Adam’s curse had nothing to do with bodily pain. What we are being told is that for life to continue in the wilderness, humanity would have to work hard (toil) to continue their existence.

Struggling to obtain food and struggling to continue the human life-line was what life in the wilderness would look like. This hard work was wrapped up in sorrow and grief.

Many wives and husbands would feel the sting of infertility and many would also feel the sting of famine. The dynamics between wife and husband would also change.

In Eden, YHWH called them to be co-rulers of earth, but in the wilderness male humans would pull rank on their wives and expect submission. Whereas Eden was a feast amongst equals, the wilderness was a barren place of toil and inequality.
Humans would have to work extra hard to see any results of a flourishing life and any success would be tainted with constant hardship. Humans would live, but not without toil and tears.

For the record, atsav was never used to describe physical pain and so we can safely say that women were NOT cursed to have pain in childbirth, although it doesn’t exclude the possibility that pain would occur. Physical pain is often a bi-product of hard labour.

Hebrew words which do describe physical pain (although they are also used to describe emotional and metaphorical pain) are ka’av (Strong’s 3510), k’ehv (Strong’s 3511), makov (Strong’s 4341), khal’khalah (Strong’s 2479), tsiyr (Strong’s 6735). Some of those words were used to describe the pain of giving birth, but none of them were atsav.

It should also be noted that these so-called curses were not punishments from YHWH.
First to note is that the only things actually cursed in the Genesis 3 account was the snake (Genesis 3:14) and the ground (Genesis 3:17).

The consequences that Adam and Eve would face were merely the result of living in the wilderness, outside the Garden of Eden.
The moment they followed the snake’s instructions was the moment they chose their new Governor, and now they had to move into his domain.

The wilderness was far away from where YHWH wanted humans to be, and fortunately He would not abandon them in their darkest hour. The words of Genesis 3:16-17 were merely the results of what they had done to themselves.

God had the graciousness to connect with Eve and Adam personally, to describe to them what might be the hardest and most shocking changes they would face in their new habitat… nothing would come easily. Everything would be hard work and it would break their hearts.

What a culture shock for Eve and Adam to experience and what a kindness it was for YHWH to break the news to each of them personally. After this sad exchange, YHWH gently covered them in clothing that He made Himself and sent them out into their new land. But He would not abandon them there.

Well said. 'Hard labor' including 'sorrow and grief' definitely cover a large part of what I witness daily.

And yes, God didn't curse anyone. He 'handed out sentences' or 'made known to them the effects of their sin' which happened to be that their sin would set the Curse in motion.

 

[SaysWhat]

Interesting read here ===

Atsav: TOIL & SORROW, and a New Look at Genesis 3:16
Jun 9, 2024 hebrew word lessons

https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2024/06/09/atsav-toil-sorrow-and-a-new-look-at-genesis-316/

HARD WORK/TOIL/GRIEF/SORROW: Atsav, verb (Stong’s 6087, 6088); masculine noun (Strong’s 6089, 6090, 6092, 6093); feminine noun (Strong’s 6094).
Root verb: עָצַב
Sounds like: atz-ahv

One of the wonderful things about reading the Hebrew Bible in the original language is the discovery of long-held misinterpretations and its impact on the full story of the Gospel message.

A study on the Hebrew word atsav highlights a particular Biblical text that has been widely misinterpreted throughout history and it changes the narrative of what has often been described as the Curse of Eve.

After Eve and Adam sinned in the Garden they learned of their consequences for disobedience. They had to leave YHWH’s perfect Garden and go into the wilderness. There life would be drastically different and YHWH spoke to each of them about what life would be like for them as wilderness residents:

Genesis 3:16 (NASB)
To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall deliver children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Did this mean that from that point on, women would find the action of giving birth painful? That seems to be the interpretation according to most translations, but actually the text says nothing of the sort.

Here is a more literal (Hebrew word by Hebrew word) translation of the verse:
Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said,

“Greatly multiplied will be your hard work [its’vohnek עִצְּבוֹנֵ֣ךְ] and conception; in sorrow [b-etsev בְּעֶ֖צֶב] you shall bear children. To your husband your desire shall be, and he shall rule over you.”

This passage was not talking about pain in childbirth; it was talking about the difficulties in conception and the emotionally draining hard work it would be to conceive, carry, and raise a child. The Hebrew word for hard work (atsav) was then repeated in Adam’s curse:

Genesis 3:17b-19
[YHWH to Adam:] “Cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labour [b-itsa’vohn בְּעִצָּבוֹן֙] you shall eat from it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; yet you shall eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Eve and Adam’s curse had nothing to do with bodily pain. What we are being told is that for life to continue in the wilderness, humanity would have to work hard (toil) to continue their existence.

Struggling to obtain food and struggling to continue the human life-line was what life in the wilderness would look like. This hard work was wrapped up in sorrow and grief.

Many wives and husbands would feel the sting of infertility and many would also feel the sting of famine. The dynamics between wife and husband would also change.

In Eden, YHWH called them to be co-rulers of earth, but in the wilderness male humans would pull rank on their wives and expect submission. Whereas Eden was a feast amongst equals, the wilderness was a barren place of toil and inequality.
Humans would have to work extra hard to see any results of a flourishing life and any success would be tainted with constant hardship. Humans would live, but not without toil and tears.

For the record, atsav was never used to describe physical pain and so we can safely say that women were NOT cursed to have pain in childbirth, although it doesn’t exclude the possibility that pain would occur. Physical pain is often a bi-product of hard labour.

Hebrew words which do describe physical pain (although they are also used to describe emotional and metaphorical pain) are ka’av (Strong’s 3510), k’ehv (Strong’s 3511), makov (Strong’s 4341), khal’khalah (Strong’s 2479), tsiyr (Strong’s 6735). Some of those words were used to describe the pain of giving birth, but none of them were atsav.

It should also be noted that these so-called curses were not punishments from YHWH.
First to note is that the only things actually cursed in the Genesis 3 account was the snake (Genesis 3:14) and the ground (Genesis 3:17).

The consequences that Adam and Eve would face were merely the result of living in the wilderness, outside the Garden of Eden.
The moment they followed the snake’s instructions was the moment they chose their new Governor, and now they had to move into his domain.

The wilderness was far away from where YHWH wanted humans to be, and fortunately He would not abandon them in their darkest hour. The words of Genesis 3:16-17 were merely the results of what they had done to themselves.

God had the graciousness to connect with Eve and Adam personally, to describe to them what might be the hardest and most shocking changes they would face in their new habitat… nothing would come easily. Everything would be hard work and it would break their hearts.

What a culture shock for Eve and Adam to experience and what a kindness it was for YHWH to break the news to each of them personally. After this sad exchange, YHWH gently covered them in clothing that He made Himself and sent them out into their new land. But He would not abandon them there.

Hmm would that be the wilderness of Eden?

Gen 4
16 So Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

 

[Dino246]

“How can you claim that Adam's placement over Eve is a remnant of the curse of the law in the light of the following?”

in light of everything you said about marriage in Christ I can still acknolwedge that God set Adam in authority over eve just like Paul said because it also says it in genesis . It’s not just a claim I’m making

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

before they sinned …the blessing is like you are describing a partnership teo as one “ they “ them “

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after they sinned because eve was the one who first followed the lie . Paul is saying

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul is talking about genesis three right there using it as his argument as to why he doesn’t allow women to teach .

The glaring problem with your position is that you have a good God placing sinful males in authority over all women because one woman was deceived. I am certain that God is wiser than that.

There is a better way to view Paul's words to Timothy, but you have to do a bit of study on the cultural context to get it. Basically, Paul was refuting the pagan gnostic belief that Eve was formed first and not deceived. Paul was actually affirming women learning (which was contrary to Jewish culture) while putting an appropriate restriction on a woman who had not yet learned Christian truths and therefore should not be teaching Christians.

This preserves God's character and is consistent with Jesus' treatment of women.

note biblically if you had no son , you had no hier even a female in Christ is an hier and equal it’s something that existed under the law because of all of mans transgressions

Actually, there is precedent for women being heirs; in Numbers 26 and 27, the daughters of Zelophehad inherited their father's land because he had no sons.

 

[ValleyAnt]

Any direction we receive from God is a command.

That's right. One of the reasons it isn't obvious that God's directions are actually commands is because 'command' is usually conflated with 'commandment'. Many people see commandments (from the old covenant) as basically obsolete and therefore don't feel obligated to keep commands either (in the new covenant times we live in):

1. Command (informal and spontaneous): Jesus told His disciples before He left them, "A new command I give you, that you love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

2. Commandment (formal and established): God told Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them" (Exodus 24:12).

Some look to the Bible (OT and NT) for commandments to live by (formal and established: the logos), but following God's daily commands is a different exercise that requires faith and obedience (informal and spontaneous: the rhema).

 

[ValleyAnt]

I've read a few of your posts. Frankly, you come across as a self-righteous, arrogant know-it-all. The statement above does much to reinforce that assessment. You might find your ideas are received better when you don't assume you know more than anyone else. I've been a Christian for many decades, and I have never encountered someone who is both very knowledgeable and an arrogant jerk. Regardless of how much you (think that you) know, don't be the latter.

Dino, don't be so easily offended. And I'm a doer. I don't believe in philosophy, but you can't do much but talk online.

I remember a job I once had at a restaurant working with 90% women. And of those 90% women, 90% of them were married. The married ones in particular would flirt with me. When I rejected their interest, they called me "conceited". They felt strongly, but they were only angry because I wasn't giving them what they wanted. Potiphar's wife would've called Joseph conceited too. And many of us would call righteous people in the Bible, including Jesus, arrogant because they were bold and their manner and demeanor would have rubbed us the wrong way. Our emotions mean nothing if they are carnal. As I type now, there are people harming and killing and torturing and raping innocent people. God is more concerned with those people than with christian jerks.

At the same job mentioned above those married women, both men and women would constantly complain that some person or other thought they were 'too good' for them. At lunch one guy is saying, "I asked her for her number but she thought she was too good for me." Back working, some girl is saying, "He thinks he's too good for me." I heard this routinely, people complaining about someone they really didn't know. I wondered why I wasn't intimidated or bothered by prideful people or people who might think they were 'too good' for me like all my coworkers were (and as so many people still are well into old age). I then realized it was because

a.) I can see through people, and humanity is unimpressive (as Paul said, nothing good/impressive/to write home about dwells in the flesh), so no one qualifies to be arrogant, conceited, or prideful; and

b.) knowing and being content with who I am neutralizes the negative effects that someone else's private high-minded thoughts might have on me.

In short, I knew that people who are angry at others for 'pride, arrogance, ego, high-mindedness, conceit, etc.', the issue isn't with the person they are upset with (after all, sin can't hate sin, so how can a sinner hate sin in another sinner); the issue is with the person who is upset. The problem isn't that someone else thinks they're 'too good'; the problem is that the person who is upset believes the other person is 'too good'. This is a similar dynamic to jealousy: the person who is jealous views the object of jealousy as their problem, but the problem is never in the object of jealousy but in the jealous person. It's important to manage your feelings about people; I shouldn't be able to affect you so much from a long distance. Or do you confront everyone you see who you feel is a jerk?

The first time God spoke to me (that I heard) was in the 6th grade. I was about 12 years old. There was this kid I just hated and loathed. One day between class periods, I was at my locker changing out books and saw how several lockers down from me. I looked at him and just hated him. (Everyone naturally pardons their own emotions and thoughts-- especially their emotions-- as true, justified, and righteous.) As I was seething at this kid, while he was minding his business just changing out his books, God suddenly spoke to me (uh-oh). Many years later, I still remember what He told me basically word for word:

God: "Why do you hate that [kid/boy]?"

Me: *Suddenly unable to find a reason but trying very hard." ("I just... He just... It's just...")

God (when I'd given up looking for a reason as there was none): "When[ever] you hate somebody [for no good reason], the problem isn't with the person. The problem is with you."

I was convicted and had a major heart change in that area. From that point on, at around 12 years old, I would never and have never hated (or had strong negative feelings against) someone for no reason. In fact, I've never hated even with reason. When God confronted my sense of righteousness, I was delivered from being offended and having aught against anyone who had not done me any wrong (and this also applies to those who indeed have done me wrong). Offense is very tricky because it makes us self-righteous judges of right and wrong (ie. we believe the way we feel or think is the only right way or is correct) although the things that offend us may not offend others or God. The apostles thought Jesus would be offended that people were going around casting out demons without Him; Joshua thought the same of Moses when two others were prophesying without specific permission; etc. But Jesus wasn't offended; neither was Moses; neither was God. Keep reading my posts and don't let feelings and emotions make you fall to pieces. Because most people who act like they're better than others know they're not. It's the people who truly believe they're better than others who pose a genuine threat to the well-being of others.

 

[SaysWhat]

That's right. One of the reasons it isn't obvious that God's directions are actually commands is because 'command' is usually conflated with 'commandment'. Many people see commandments (from the old covenant) as basically obsolete and therefore don't feel obligated to keep commands either (in the new covenant times we live in):

1. Command (informal and spontaneous): Jesus told His disciples before He left them, "A new command I give you, that you love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

2. Commandment (formal and established): God told Moses, "Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them" (Exodus 24:12).

Some look to the Bible (OT and NT) for commandments to live by (formal and established: the logos), but following God's daily commands is a different exercise that requires faith and obedience (informal and spontaneous: the rhema).

The tablets are quite interesting. In Exodus it's mentioned that both sides where written on. 10 seems a bit short of a total, unless there were 2 and half commandments on each side. In alot photos online it's presented as being all on one side and just 10 lol.

 

[Dino246]

I shouldn't be able to affect you so much from a long distance. Or do you confront everyone you see who you feel is a jerk?

You don't "affect" me; I said exactly what I meant to say. No, I don't confront everyone who I think is acting like a jerk. It depends on the context and my degree of involvement. On this forum, I call out some of the bad behaviour in the hope that people will make reasonable attempts to discuss Scripture instead of insulting one another. Some respond well, while others double down on their foolish malice. I've seen more of the latter this week than the former.

 

[ValleyAnt]

You don't "affect" me; I said exactly what I meant to say. No, I don't confront everyone who I think is acting like a jerk. It depends on the context and my degree of involvement. On this forum, I call out some of the bad behaviour in the hope that people will make reasonable attempts to discuss Scripture instead of insulting one another. Some respond well, while others double down on their foolish malice. I've seen more of the latter this week than the former.

My dad told me I was prideful and arrogant when I was a little boy because I was brushing my hair and teeth before school. He continued with the same thing through my teen years. My catholic aunt who tried to destroy me took up the chant, stating that it was because I refused to go with her to her catholic church. The married women continued, citing my rejection of their advances. It has always been 'pridefulness' and it has always come from people who tried to tear me down (willfully or not). I was called conceited so often while I worked at that restaurant that I took time to pray and ask God if I was prideful like all these people said I was. He answered that I wasn't prideful. He wasn't saying I had no pride in me. He was saying I didn't have the pride in me that they said I did.

God began to show me years ago that the enemy often formulates his attack against each person to mirror what God has put in that person. Eg. if God has called you to make hundreds of millions to distribute to Kingdom work, the enemy will marshall his attacks on you to target just that, and you might experience a lot of people discouraging you from making millions... without you even mentioning (or knowing) anything about making millions. The enemy does this using people all the time: a pretty girl surrounded by girls who aren't as pretty. She has a light about her that they don't have, so they try to tear her down. This attack against her is primarily from the enemy (it doesn't matter if she's christian or not; satan hates God first and humans second), but human free will is also a part of it.

God began to show me what He called me to when I was learning about how the enemy strategically every individual. He called me to something such that the enemy's best way to preempt me ever getting there is to convince me that I don't deserve those things. If I believe I'm prideful, then I'll reject it when I'm given much more gifts than everyone else at the party. That is satan's primary strategy against me. He attacks everyone (every human) with different strategies starting with a primary strategy usually tailor-made for each person. satan does this against everyone: to Abraham he said, "Yes, have the promised child with your servant"; to Joseph he said, "You don't deserve that special coat when everyone else has regular coats"; to Jesus he said, "If You are the Son of God". satan attacks at the root or origin of everyone's purpose and identity and destiny. You do not want to be any part of the vessel(s) he uses to do that. satan is always working to tear people down and usually has to use other people to do it. That's why I told you to watch your emotions and feelings regarding people especially. We'd all like to think, "Oh, I would never." That's what Joseph's 10 older brothers thought too. Until their emotions took over and they finally tried to kill him:

"Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine beside a well; his branches run over the wall. The archers have bitterly grieved him (negatively affected him), shot at him (attacked him), and hated him (agreed together for his downfall). But his bow remained in strength (his character remained unchanged), and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel)" (Gen. 49).

Joseph was so fruitful that he was like a vine with branches climbing everywhere. Interesting that Jacob used the word "archers" when Joseph never went into any type of battle and we aren't told that he or any of his brothers were archers. I think, at least spiritually, the term 'archers' has to do with long-distance warfare pertaining to the role that satan or principalities played in moving with Joseph's brothers to kill/destroy him. God didn't let them destroy him, but they did negatively affect him ("bitterly grieved him"). Because Joseph's heart (bow, a term used sometimes in the Bible to symbolize one's character which 'sends out' into the world: "Guard your heart/bow, for out of it are the issues/arrows of life") was right from the start and he wasn't prideful like his brothers had accused him of being, God had legal right to stand by Joseph and personally strengthen and support him ("the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob"). satan/the principalities in the region(s) where Joseph lived agreed together with Joseph's brothers (and with Potiphar's wife) to destroy Joseph.

You have to guard your heart. Nobody wants to think their emotions or intentions or attitude is wrong but that's just not the case. That's why Paul said, "If any man is overtaken in a trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness." I have decent discernment. If I'm displeasing to God, that's between me and Him. It's unwise to let other people's thoughts and feelings about you dictate your life. The enemy is always working through people to oppose, hinder, resist, detain, derail, delay, destroy. That makes discernment and knowing the source or origin of things important.

 

[Mem]

I've observed that there are a many that behave most lawfully, and yet not at all gracefully. These may be able to claim that they've behaved lawfully, indeed but then again the law isn't exactly very graceful. However, if you can say that you've behaved gracefully, then I've no question that you've behaved the most lawfully.

 

[homwardbound]

There is compelling evidence that these two verses are interpolations which were inadvertently added to the text by a scribe after Paul wrote the letter. Genesis is not the law, but the ideas and restrictions mentioned in those two verses were a part of Roman culture and law, which is probably from where the interpolation originated.

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/why-would-1-cor-143435-be-an-interpolation

In History at Corinth. There was a brothel up above the Corinth Church
This brothel of women entered the Corinth Church with shaven heads and took oner the pulpit and started the taking advantage of grace, go ahead have her you remain forgiven. Which from God is truth, Just not the correct reaction as I see this grace was never given to not truly care for one another in compassion true Love as in 1 Cor 13:4-7. Paul's letters was to inform Sothenes, the leader of the Corinthian Church see that in Chapter 1
Ev il has come unto us all to corrupt anything. The letter was to correct the women of the Brothel taking over and using sex to get what they wanted
Yes, the Letter has gotten corrupted in mis translating, and only God can and will and does sort it out in his children that will nit quit beleif to him as a true Love as in 1 Cor 13:4-7 tells me and asked to be imputed that to do, and not take any credit in it in doing it presently