Tasted Death for every Man !

[brightfame52]

tbh it sounds like you don't believe His blood is sufficient to cover all sin.

Thats your position, since you teach sinners He died for shall yet die in their sins. Heb 2:9 teaches the ones He died for He takes them to Glory, thats salvation. Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Cameron143]

On the basis of seeing them placed in His Son, with their names written in the Lamb's book of life.

His Son Jesus Christ, Who is Himself life, and holds the keys to life and death. Death which He overcame.

I see you returning to this theme again and again, and wonder what it is you are trying to convey...

Simply that I find it inconsistent and unjust of God to atone for the sins of an individual and still hold the individual accountable for his sins.

 

[Magenta]

Simply that I find it inconsistent and unjust of God to atone for the sins of an individual and still hold the individual accountable for his sins.

What do you propose is the truth of the matter, since we know and believe God is loving, just, and merciful?

 

[Mem]

Abraham was given a covenant which balanced on the fulcrum of faith yes? It was present in him, and so it was accounted for righteousness, as opposed to what accounts as righteousness by the law, which Jesus was made subject to, "born of woman, subject to the law...". What would've become of Abraham if he did not believe what God had promised? His fate would've been similar to those that died in the wilderness, no? They did not enter because of unbelief.

 

[Cameron143]

What do you propose is the truth of the matter, since we know and believe God is loving, just, and merciful?

This is the genesis of limited atonement, which I am inclined to believe unless someone can explain to me the justice of no longer holding someone accountable for their sins while still holding them accountable.

I can reconcile verses which on their surface seem to allow for unlimited atonement, to show that this is not actually the case. What I have been unable to reconcile is a just God acting what seems to me to be injustice.

I can find verses that say God is righteous in all His ways, but not those that say He is loving in all His ways. This suggests to me that all of God's actions must be just, but don't necessarily need to be loving or exercise mercy.

This, to me, is why God must need to send Jesus to redeem mankind. While God would have been just in redeeming no one, in order to remain just in forgiving men their sins, the sins would still need to be atoned for. In delivering Jesus for our sins, He is both just and Justier of all those who believe.

This is the argument undergirding Paul's argument in Romans 8...who shall lay any charge to God's elect?

 

[posthuman]

Have enjoyed the discussion.

A cockroach was made subject to corruption by man, but Jesus didn't become a cockroach to redeem them.

I actually believe you have a greater inconsistency when dealing with mankind. If Jesus atoned for the sins of all mankind, you have those who are suffering in hell for sins that are paid for. On what basis does God judge sin that has been blotted out, placed behind His back, cast in the sea of forgetfulness, and that He remembers no more?
Further, how do you reconcile this with the fact that Jesus is only said to save His people from their sin?

just as Jesus said, condemned because they have not believed in Him, not because He was unwilling, incapable, or had not made a way for them to be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

just as Jesus said, condemned because they have not believed in Him, not because He was unwilling, incapable, or had not made a way for them to be saved.

He is the way. And under condemnation is where all begin.
And while Jesus was certainly capable and willing, He only did what He saw His Father doing. So being capable and willing aren't part of the equation. Whether He made a way for all or not is the substance of our discourse. I'm not convinced you have made the case. You may well be.

 

[posthuman]

Whether He made a way for all or not is the substance of our discourse

it is, because His blood is our propitiation. from my side, i am saying that His blood is sufficient for the whole world. but it wasn't enough that the Jews in the Exodus had a lamb for seder: it's blood had to be applied to the posts of the door.

so there is a Way, but not all walk in it

 

[Cameron143]

it is, because His blood is our propitiation. from my side, i am saying that His blood is sufficient for the whole world. but it wasn't enough that the Jews in the Exodus had a lamb for seder: it's blood had to be applied to the posts of the door.

so there is a Way, but not all walk in it

Then you end up with people God has atoned for in hell. Jesus blood exonerates them before God because His work has been accomplished and accepted by God, yet God refuses to honor His former commitment. And you believe God is acting righteously?
Your example is for those in a covenant of works. For God to require those under such a covenant to meet some performance standard is acceptable. This is not so under a covenant of grace. The works that allows for grace to be applied are all met through Christ and not of works for the recipient of grace.

 

[posthuman]

sinners He died for shall yet die in their sins.

2 Corinthians 5:10-15​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.​

For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have [an answer] for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, [it is] for God; or if we are of sound mind, [it is] for you.​

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.​

 

[brightfame52]

The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, f any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath ?3

 

[brightfame52]

2 Corinthians 5:10-15​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.​

For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have [an answer] for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, [it is] for God; or if we are of sound mind, [it is] for you.​

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.​

Its the same ones He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 they are brought to Glory

 

[posthuman]

Its the same ones He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 they are brought to Glory

in Hebrews 2:9 and 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 John 2 it says He died for all.

you have to add and take away from His Word in many places for your hypercalvanist position, but i simply believe His Word as it is written.

for yet another example:

we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
These things command and teach.
(1 Timothy 4:10-11)​

​

He is the Savior of all and especially of those who believe.
therefore by "all" is meant He is the Savior even of those who do not believe, and will thus be condemned.
condemned for what?
for rejecting their only Savior.

 

[posthuman]

The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, f any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath ?3

​

The True Light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. ​

He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. ​

He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him. ​

Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.​

(John 1:9-13)​

​

note:

• He is the True Light that gives light to everyone
  • not just to some
• He came to His own but His own did not receive Him
  • so "His own" includes both the saved, because we are His own, and the condemned, because He came not only to those who are redeemed but also to those who reject Him
  • He came to save, not to condemn - this indicates all are offered salvation, not just some
• yet to those who did receive Him He gave the right to become children of God - and "those who receive Him" is explicitly defined as equal to those who believe in His name.
  • Salvation pivots on belief, not on whether He died for us - not on whether He offered salvation, gave light to, came to, made a way for, etc --- but on whether we believe

so here is yet another scripture the hypercalvanist must scratch out of their Bible or ignore.

 

[posthuman]

​

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that The Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(John 3:18-19)
​

the condemnation is that mankind did not receive The Light.
if there was nothing offered, there is nothing to have refused to receive, and there is no condemnation.
and what was offered is this: propitiation for sin.
therefore scripture does not lie when it says, He died for all, He is the propitiation for not only our sin but for the whole world, that He is the Savior of all mankind, but especially of those who receive that Salvation by believing in Him, and again, that He died for all

but @brightfame52 the hypercalvanist position you are arguing for, requires all these scriptures to be lies, to be deleted, to be changed.
i suggest that instead you should believe God's Word as it is written.

 

[brightfame52]

@posthuman

in Hebrews 2:9 and 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 John 2 it says He died for all.

It is all of Gods elect, and they were all saved and brought to Glory

 

[brightfame52]

​

The True Light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. ​

He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. ​

He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him. ​

Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.​

(John 1:9-13)​

​

note:

• He is the True Light that gives light to everyone
  • not just to some
• He came to His own but His own did not receive Him
  • so "His own" includes both the saved, because we are His own, and the condemned, because He came not only to those who are redeemed but also to those who reject Him
  • He came to save, not to condemn - this indicates all are offered salvation, not just some
• yet to those who did receive Him He gave the right to become children of God - and "those who receive Him" is explicitly defined as equal to those who believe in His name.
  • Salvation pivots on belief, not on whether He died for us - not on whether He offered salvation, gave light to, came to, made a way for, etc --- but on whether we believe

so here is yet another scripture the hypercalvanist must scratch out of their Bible or ignore.

The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, if any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath which is the second death ?3

 

[posthuman]

@posthuman



It is all of Gods elect, and they were all saved and brought to Glory

you're not paying any attention.

you have the Word given to you, but you do not receive it.

 

[posthuman]

how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, if any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath which is the second death

the condemned have this Salvation offered to them, but refuse to receive it,

exactly like all these scriptures have been offered to you, but you refuse to receive His Word.

 

[posthuman]

@posthuman



It is all of Gods elect, and they were all saved and brought to Glory

nope.

this hypercalvanism is in clear conflict with the word of God, which says "all" - - not all are saved, but to all salvation is legitimately offered.