Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[John146]

I don't know whether it is an exact number, or figurative.

uhhh, it clearly states 144,000...not figurative...literal

 

[Cameron143]

uhhh, it clearly states 144,000...not figurative...literal

It clearly states that we are sheep...baa

 

[CorrectiveLens]

John 6:39 does not say "all men". It says only those that his Father gave to him (John 10:27-29). Those that Christ died for on the cross were cleansed by his blood, at the time he died. They don't have to choose to be cleansed.

Christ was a sacrifice to God, FOR GOD"S ACCEPTANCE, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

So are you saying that Christ was a sacrifice to the Father for the acceptance of those that the Father chooses ( that the Father gave to Him )?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This scripture references "the world of believers".

There is a world that God loves, it is the world that he chastens.(Heb 12:6-7) (Heb 12:11)

There is a world that God does not love; and he does not chasten; (Psalms 73)

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive.

John 15:18-19 - If the world hat you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen ye out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:9 - I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them thou hast given me, for they are thine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's a specific record about specific people. Rebekah was having twins. God had to choose one over the other to carry the Christ-line. He chose Jacob.

God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Romans 9:11 is written to "show that his election might stand"

Rom 9:23-24 - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath before prepared unto glory, even us whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, that IS the truth of scriptures. God wants people who want Him.

Anyone has the capacity to believe the Gospel.

Are you quoting from yourself, or from scripture, if from scripture, then list them.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

CalvinISM is nothing more than just another "ISM" like ArminianISM, or MormonISM, or CatholicISM. just READ THE BIBLE, and allow the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom if you really want it.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I understand heresy when I see one. The fact that Calvinists believe in limited atonement makes a joke of the cross and chips away the blood of Jesus that is accessible for total cleansing from sin to all who believe. No buts, no ifs.

It is you that is trying to make a joke of the cross. Christ did not die for all mankind, only for those that his Father gave to him (John 6:39) (John 10:27-29).

Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance. What happened on the cross was a total cleansing from their sins. No buts, no if's.

 

[hornetguy]

From Paul's letter to Timothy...

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,

Pretty plain...

 

[VARob]

It is you that is trying to make a joke of the cross. Christ did not die for all mankind, only for those that his Father gave to him (John 6:39) (John 10:27-29).

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance. What happened on the cross was a total cleansing from their sins. No buts, no if's.

That’s true for anyone who chooses to believe the Gospel. Salvation is available to anyone.

 

[VARob]

Are you quoting from yourself, or from scripture, if from scripture, then list them.

I have, several times. You don’t believe them as they are written, but spin them to fit with Calvinism.

 

[VARob]

So you are saying that the first process of salvation is the person choosing. Doesn't that contradict the bible scripture that says that nobody searches for God?

There are plenty of people in the Bible, and in life today, who did and do search for God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God chooses people who choose Him. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).

There is a deliverance (salvation) that the born again children of God receive, here in time, when they come unto the knowledge of the truth (Rom 10:1-3) The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4, is the same as "the world of believers" in John 3:16.

In 2 Pet 3:9, we have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to find out who Peter is addressing his statement to, and that is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter is warning them to repent when they commit a sin so that they would not stay separated from God's fellowship. Perish=death=separation Peter even includes himself in his warning by using the word "usward".

So are you saying that Christ was a sacrifice to the Father for the acceptance of those that the Father chooses ( that the Father gave to Him )?

Yes. In harmony with all of the other scriptures, that is my understanding, with the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

God choose them before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), and predetermined that Christ would "clean them up" on the cross, suitable to be adopted as his children..(Eph 1:5). The final phase of that adoption will be when Jesus comes again, at the last day, to gather his elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have, several times. You don’t believe them as they are written, but spin them to fit with Calvinism.

Is not the title of this forum "Bible discussion forum"? So, let's discuss scripture. All scripture must harmonize in order to glean the truth of Jesus doctrine.

 

[VARob]

The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:4, is the same as "the world of believers" in John 3:16.

John 3:16 does not say “world of believers.” You’re changing the Bible to fit your theology.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are plenty of people in the Bible, and in life today, who did and do search for God.

The only people, back then, and now, that will search for knowledge of God, are those that have been quickened by God to the new spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[VARob]

Is not the title of this forum "Bible discussion forum"? So, let's discuss scripture. All scripture must harmonize in order to glean the truth of Jesus doctrine.

It never goes anywhere. Nobody ever changes their mind. You’re convinced Calvinism is true, and you’re not going to see it any other way.

 

[Snacks]

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

So according to you people who never heard the Gospel know God nonetheless. Seems like God’s grace is sufficient for such people.

 

[VARob]

The only people, back then, and now, that will search for knowledge of God, are those that have been quickened by God to the new spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To borrow a line from you, I don’t respond to posts that don’t contain scripture backing your statements.

 

[Inquisitor]

The children of the promise are Christian.

When Paul was discussing the fact that the promise does not follow down every bloodline, what do you think he was illustrating?

It was God's sovereign will that the PROMISE will follow from a strict, chosen, Jewish, bloodline.

If you do not understand the bloodline please read Luke 3:23.

When Paul mentions in Rom 2 that an outward Jew is not a Jew, what do you think he was talking about?

Jewish conversion to Jesus Christ and the sanctification that the Holy Spirit endows.

Look at Rom 9 again. In Rom 9:6 he states "not all of Israel are Israel".

Correct but Paul is still tracing the bloodline of the chosen Jewish lineage. May I say that many in Israel are of Israel.

In Rom 9:7 he gives an example about how the identity is not passed by bloodline alone.

Read the genealogy given in Luke 3. There is a very long list of Jewish names given in that bloodline, God chose that specific bloodline for a purpose.

In Rom 9:8 he states "that is to say those of bloodline are not children of God, but those of the promise are counted for the heirs".

True but Sarah will have a son.

In Rom 9:17 he explains that God will sometimes raise people up to think they are so great for the purpose of making an example of them, to demonstrate His power and His mercy. This would mean it would be completely consistent with His designs to raise antiChrist Jews into high power solely for the purpose of making an example of them.

God bound everyone over to disobedience so that He can have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

If you fixate on cherry-picked words, it is easy to miss the nuance of what he is talking about. He isn't saying that all descendants of Isaac are chosen/elect/etc. He is stating that the promised are only a subset of descendants and not elect on the basis of merely bloodline. If you look deeper into scripture you will find that it is only those in Christ that are heirs to the promise. Not all of Israel are Israel, this exclusion is not limited to nonIsaac descendants.

Your trying to undermine the genealogy of the Christ, the promised one.

You also cannot accept that God chose the Jews, Jerusalem, and Israel.

I do not fixate, I cover all of the letter to the Romans.