What a great gift the prayer language has been for me these
last 40+ years.
last 40+ years.
Speaking in tongues
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yes it does because you are not able to get the full context with just one verse. As it was said 1cor 12,13, and 14 are known as Unit Chapters . Meaning they are to be kept together for proper authorial intent.
no you have crossed the line and many other here do disagree with tongues and are and will still be here because they are not insulting or so out of line biblically it is not an essential for salvation
there you see i said it tongues is not essential for salvation . but it is for today. you can disagree and that is great I will not suggest you have devil as you have others. See the difference. Bye
Fallacy: equivocation.
The equivocation is accusing others of "self-interpreting", and calling what you are doing "expositing". It's all the same thing. Either you are quoting Scripture verbatim or you are commenting on it. The commentary may be valid, sound, and true, or not, but it is fundamentally dishonest to deride others for what you are doing yourself.
I am not equivocating. I am not confusing self interpretation of tongues with expositing scripture. It is simple to read 1 Cor 14:14 and see that unknown tongues produce no fruit. You cannot gain understanding without knowledge.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
One verse or all the verses still point to without knowledge there is no understanding and the activity is unfruitful. I have offered nothing that transgresses the context not only of 1 Cor 12-14 but also the book of Acts, Genesis, Isaiah, Joel, and Mark. The unit chapters, as you call them, in 1 Cor must still agree with the canon of scripture as a whole.
When Paul says he wishes everyone spoke in tongues what tongues was he referring to? The tongues of Acts? All tongues in the bible are tongues through the Holy Spirit.
A pastor friend of mine was relating to me how on his trip to India he spoke and had to break up his sermon into one paragraph segments this was so the interpreters present could translate his English message into five different dialects that were present in the meeting. He was remaking on how difficult it was to pick up and continue his message having to stop so often so the message could be translated for the benefit of all present.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Now you are changing the subject. You were addressing self-interpretation of Scripture, not of tongues.
Here is 1 Corinthians 14:14 verbatim:
"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."
It does not say, "unknown tongues produce no fruit". That is an unwarranted conclusion. This has been explained to you several times, and you have rejected it repeatedly.
The word unknown is supplied by the translators to convey an accurate meaning of the text from the Greek.
Now who is attempting to skirt the scripture? I have pointed to an accurate conclusion based on a simple meaning from the text. I can see that you are adjusting how you read this passage to defend your position. It only stands to reason that if Paul prayed in a tongue he knew he would understand he would comprehend his prayer and his mind would be fruitful.
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. KJV not that that makes any difference.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Uncontexted single scriptures produce no fruit. Learn to read more than 1 line at a time
1 Cor 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Ok now where have I neglected context?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A person would see it that way IF they only were to read 1cor 14:14
But lets look at what it really says Verse 14 1cor 14: For IF I pray in a tongue , my spirit PRAYS, but my understanding is Unfruitful.>nkjv
nkjv Verse 15: What is the conclusion(niv says so what shall I do?) then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with my understanding. I will sing with the spirit , and I will sing with my understanding.
IF you do what verse 15 says to do
what will be the conclusion if you do not do what verse 15 tells us?
Verse 16: otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place (meeting, service)of the uninformed say "Amen" at YOUR giving of Thanks, since he does not understand What you say ?
Does speaking in an unknown tongue produce NO fruit?
Yes it does if you have no bias the fruit is "For IF I pray in a tongue , my spirit PRAYS,
because there are those who will not understand you will be mature to speak in understanding or the language you know and of the hearers . Be mature , consider those who are not in understanding . But it is not saying "unknown tongues produce no fruit." is not what 1cor 14 says.
yes you do you offer context of gen which has nothing to do with Acts 2 . Joel Does Because Peter said it did .
even your placement of the books is confusing no wonder why you can't understand context of this.
"book of Acts, Genesis, Isaiah, Joel, and Mark."
the context of the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit " Gen 11 have nothing to do with each other contextually .
But 1 cor 12, 13, and 14 are.
Paul is saying precisely that when he says his spirit prays and does not understand what he is praying. He does go on and say he will pray with understanding and he will sing with understanding. Understanding is essential to fruitfulness.
Have you been on vacation?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We are discussing one gift not all the gifts. Gen 11 has to do with the first appearance of tongues so it is germane to the issue under discussion.
Tongues in Acts were seen as a totally different activity when compared to how the modern church presents tongues. We see no one in scripture ever praying in a tongue. Jesus never prayed in tongues. Mark is a reference to tongues as they were in Acts. In 1 Cor Paul says he wished everybody spoke in tongues. Was that tongues like we see in Acts? Probably since we have no other tongues to compare them with according to what is revealed in the bible.
Hope you had a nice rest.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
yes you did because you did not start with verse 1 of chapter 14 you started with verse 11 . missing 10 verses to formulate context of being said without verse 1-10 you missed where the Holy Spirit gve Pual the following unless you think the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it? here is what you missed
:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts,
:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; [a]for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
the word Greater there in verse 5 means most effective but if the unknown tongue is interpreted it is the same as prophesies. why would that be important? well verse 6 tell us doesn't it ?
:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
:7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
:8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
:9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without [b]significance.
So as we read the 10 verses we see a different context then with only half of the chapter starting at verse 11
you miss a lot and nothing states :
1. tongues is not for today
2. tongues should not be spoken
3. use the gifts with maturity
4. consider the hearers who do not understand
5. IF you are used in the gift of tongues in the service there needs to be an interpretation .
No that is not what he is saying essentially is not the full truth. Contextually is what we need and authorial intent not part of the truth .
well you have to speak of all gifts because they are " the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Gen 11 was not in context with Acts 2 or Mark 16 or Joel 2 or 1cor 12-14. That is the truth. that is reading into the scriptures . gen 11 is not a nominative in the word of God it is descriptive and only to Babel. has nothing to do with Joel 2, Isaiah 28:11 , mark 16, Acts 1-2, ans 1cor 2-14.
Actually we do not come to a different context. We arrive at the point that tongues were present when a person got saved and spoke in tongues as a spontaneous response to the Holy Spirit. A confirmation sign present for unsaved Jews not for Gentiles.
We do not pray or speak in unknown tongues because we have received the Spirit of adoption and we now are able to speak to our God as Father. No vail between nor do we shield ourselves from Him.
Paul never teaches that unknown tongues were of any value in the church. There was always a need for understanding what was said that all might increase in knowledge. Every contrast Paul presents underscores the need for understanding.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The event in Acts 2 did not happen the same way as we read all of the book of Acts. Why? because it was the first time the Holy was poured out on all flesh as Peter said it was quoting Joel 2. You cannot build away from what Peter said it was . Peter at the time he spoke this was the authority because the Holy Spirit gave him these scriptures unless you do not believe that.
It is the truth it just is inconvenient for those who wish to make far more of tongues than the bible makes of tongues.
Genesis set the context of tongues throughout the bible. Isaiah establishes how the Jews saw tongues. Acts demonstrates the purpose of tongues in the apostolic church.
You rely heavily on these three chapters in 1 Cor but you really need to develop a consistent understanding of tongues in the whole bible.
For the cause of Christ
Roger