Speaking in tongues

[Sketch]

I Corinthians chapter 12 comes after Revelation 22 in which way??

What are my options?

 

[Sketch]

Over the currently 190 pages of this thread, garee's posts have been refuted repeatedly. He takes Biblical phrases and seems to be interpreting--if we can understand his odd use of religious terminology right--them in a way that contradicts the chapter he is discussing. Refute him and clearly show he's off, and he keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again.

Could we vote him off the island?
Or is that not how this works?

 

[Sketch]

One church I attended did allow private tongues to be used by small groups (2 to 5) within a larger assembly... but it was to remain within that group. They also had several other rules to maintain order. Like, if you thought you were being led to prophesy, then you were to contact leadership. If another person then contacted leadership feeling they were being led to interpret, then the two would be given the ok to speak. But they were very strict and addressed inappropriate uses immediately. With this kind of structure I think it is ok. But unfortunately far too many congregations become a free-for-all circus. And that's why we have 1 Cor 14, and mis-informed people like kavik and cv5.

Yes, I think the leadership approval idea helps with some of the current (recent) issues with prophecy and tongues.
But I don't think it was that way with the first century church. No indication of such. So, that bothers me a bit.
We shouldn't have these restrictions except to deal with recent problems.

Nice to be done with "visiting" prophets from outside the local body and the Gramma lady scolding the church for not doing enough.

 

[Dino246]

Still waiting for the verse that says; "Signs the temporal as what the eyes see are gifts".

You'll never see a verse that says that, because it has terrible grammar and wouldn't get past the first round of editing.

Signs are designed for those who rebel and will not hear prophecy alone as the source of Christ's faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

You have your blinders on. Here's plenty of evidence that your assertion is wrong:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Genesis 9:13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

Exodus 3:12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.”

Exodus 12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

Judges 6:17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me.

2 Chronicles 32:24 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. He prayed to the Lord, who answered him and gave him a miraculous sign.

And the trump card:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

 

[Dino246]

IThe bible speaks of death and we all get to experience one. Is that good? Only if you have experienced the second birth.

Um... what?

 

[bygrace]

In fact it is not about experience but about sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is biblical doctrine not one man's experience.

The bible speaks of death and we all get to experience one. Is that good? Only if you have experienced the second birth. Sound doctrine teaches the one must have the second birth to inherit heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

what a self-righteous person you are. "Only if you have experienced the second birth."

What an arrogant comment to make about people you do not even know. There has been sound Biblical doctrine provided. Apparently, you do not agree. You speak of sound doctrine yet you did not provide any to refute the understanding of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Bible does speak of death and no it is not good without a relationship with Christ. Christians do not fear death, so it is not a bad thing either.

 

[Waggles]

In Papua New Guinea born again Pentecostals say -
"Born once die twice, born twice die once."

 

[presidente]

Still waiting for the verse that says; "Signs the temporal as what the eyes see are gifts". Was is the gift of seeing what is in front and no need for faith.?

I suggest writing that in your native language and putting it into Google translate. Otherwise, we will just be guessing what you mean.

 

[presidente]

One church I attended did allow private tongues to be used by small groups (2 to 5) within a larger assembly... but it was to remain within that group. They also had several other rules to maintain order. Like, if you thought you were being led to prophesy, then you were to contact leadership. If another person then contacted leadership feeling they were being led to interpret, then the two would be given the ok to speak. But they were very strict and addressed inappropriate uses immediately. With this kind of structure I think it is ok. But unfortunately far too many congregations become a free-for-all circus. And that's why we have 1 Cor 14, and mis-informed people like kavik and cv5.

This bothers me, too. Paul called his instructions in I Corinthians 14 'commandments of the Lord'. The word of God had not originated from Corinth and they weren't the only ones to have received it. The implication is that they did not have the authority to change the commandments of the Lord that other churches also had to follow.

The elders of the church have authority to exhort people to obey the word of God, not to make rules that contradit it. Therefore, I do not support making rules such as:

- insisting that only one person preach only one sermon during the meeting, when the Bible teaches 'every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine.... let all things be done unto edifying.
- not allowing prophets to speak in the meetings when the Bible says, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' and 'for ye may all prophesy one by one...'
- not allowing one to speak in tongues and one to interpret when Paul writes to allow this.

 

[Sketch]

This bothers me, too. Paul called his instructions in I Corinthians 14 'commandments of the Lord'. The word of God had not originated from Corinth and they weren't the only ones to have received it. The implication is that they did not have the authority to change the commandments of the Lord that other churches also had to follow.

The elders of the church have authority to exhort people to obey the word of God, not to make rules that contradit it. Therefore, I do not support making rules such as:

- insisting that only one person preach only one sermon during the meeting, when the Bible teaches 'every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine.... let all things be done unto edifying.
- not allowing prophets to speak in the meetings when the Bible says, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' and 'for ye may all prophesy one by one...'
- not allowing one to speak in tongues and one to interpret when Paul writes to allow this.

These are good points.
Those who don't speak in tongues like to view this as unbreakable ridged commands about tongues.
Those who do speak in tongues understand that this is general guidance, not unbreakable ridged commands.

 

[Sketch]

I Corinthians chapter 12 comes after Revelation 22 in which way??

Was membership to the body of Christ closed at Revelation 22 ???

As long as there are new members there will be manifestations of the Holy Spirit to distribute.
The church you are proposing is an amputee. Missing important body parts.
You are the eye saying to the hand, “I don’t need you!” - vs 21

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[Sketch]

In fact it is not about experience but about sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is biblical doctrine not one man's experience.

If you want doctrine for the manifestations of the Holy Spirit we have I Corinthians 12-14.
And the book of Acts. That's about ninety-five percent of what the Bible has to say about it.

If you really want NT doctrine you should believe in the two baptisms.
That was the pattern established in Acts.
1) Water baptism
2) The baptism with the Holy Spirit
Not always in that order. Example: Cornelius

 

[garee]

Was membership to the body of Christ closed at Revelation 22 ???

As long as there are new members there will be manifestations of the Holy Spirit to distribute.
The church you are proposing is an amputee. Missing important body parts.
You are the eye saying to the hand, “I don’t need you!” - vs 21

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

No not closed sealed .

Prophets sent as apostles still prophesy the living abiding word of God. Numbers are being added as he applies the work of salvation to their hearts .

And not as a amputee. We have the perfect or whole body of truth with nothing missing by which we could know Him more adequately, with a warning not to add or subtract.

It would seem those who do insist on adding making experience the new validator of the spiritual unseen . Must leave the window open to receiving a strong delusion from God so they can keep looking to the things seen and not the things not seen . The elect are warned before hand making it not possible to be deceived by false prophecy (additions to the whole)


Jesus says its a "evil generation" as natural converted man does require a sign before they will exercise faith (coming from the experience).

Why gamble?

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2 Thess 2:9-11

 

[garee]

These are good points.
Those who don't speak in tongues like to view this as unbreakable ridged commands about tongues.
Those who do speak in tongues understand that this is general guidance, not unbreakable ridged commands.

How could they understand anything if they must speak in what some call a unknow language? How could that be a commandment?

The commandment as a law seems clear. Seeing it is all about signs that confirm something to sign seekers.

What does the sign confirm according to the rigid commandment not subject to change ?

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.2 Corinthians 14:21-22

 

[presidente]

These are good points.
Those who don't speak in tongues like to view this as unbreakable ridged commands about tongues.
Those who do speak in tongues understand that this is general guidance, not unbreakable ridged commands.

That depends on what church you go to. some Charismatic an Pentecostal churches ignore the passage when it comes to tongues. There are Pentecostal churches that expect an interpretation. In fact it seems like most churches do. Pentecostals and Charismatics might at least pay attention to some of it.

 

[RickyZ]

This bothers me, too. Paul called his instructions in I Corinthians 14 'commandments of the Lord'. The word of God had not originated from Corinth and they weren't the only ones to have received it. The implication is that they did not have the authority to change the commandments of the Lord that other churches also had to follow.

The elders of the church have authority to exhort people to obey the word of God, not to make rules that contradit it. Therefore, I do not support making rules such as:

- insisting that only one person preach only one sermon during the meeting, when the Bible teaches 'every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine.... let all things be done unto edifying.
- not allowing prophets to speak in the meetings when the Bible says, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' and 'for ye may all prophesy one by one...'
- not allowing one to speak in tongues and one to interpret when Paul writes to allow this.

It's true, I cannot find a Biblical pattern for that particular policy, other than the admonishment that it has to be orderly. And while 1 Cor 14 details what that order is, it doesn't really say how you achieve it. Since we humans tend to go over the top with things like this, and the church wanted to avoid the circus free-for-all found in other congregations, I don't see this as being out of line, certainly not as out of line as some groups get.

 

[Dino246]

No not closed sealed .

Prophets sent as apostles still prophesy the living abiding word of God. Numbers are being added as he applies the work of salvation to their hearts .

And not as a amputee. We have the perfect or whole body of truth with nothing missing by which we could know Him more adequately, with a warning not to add or subtract.

It would seem those who do insist on adding making experience the new validator of the spiritual unseen . 11

You COMPLETELY misread the post to which you responded.

 

[RickyZ]

making experience the new validator of the spiritual unseen

But isn't that what it all boils down to? The spiritual isn't found in the pages of some book, it's found in how those words play out in real life. You put words together to make a case on a subject - but does that really provide more validation than Spirit led intercessory prayer that physically dragged someone out of harm and to a place of ministry? Wordsmith all you want, but when someone tells me they were about to cut themselves and were physically dragged away, at the same time the Spirit was telling me someone was in danger and needed intercession, I'll believe the experience over your book knowledge.

What good is redemption if you don't get to experience it? Sans that, they're just words in a book.

 

[garee]

But isn't that what it all boils down to? The spiritual isn't found in the pages of some book, it's found in how those words play out in real life. You put words together to make a case on a subject - but does that really provide more validation than Spirit led intercessory prayer that physically dragged someone out of harm and to a place of ministry? Wordsmith all you want, but when someone tells me they were about to cut themselves and were physically dragged away, at the same time the Spirit was telling me someone was in danger and needed intercession, I'll believe the experience over your book knowledge.

What good is redemption if you don't get to experience it? Sans that, they're just words in a book.

We all have experiences. But beleivers have been given the gift of faith, previously having none . Freely he gives, freely we have received. They only need one source of faith. The faith of Christ as it is written the faith that comes from hearing God not seen .

But when someone tells me they were about to cut themselves and were physically dragged away, at the same time the Spirit is telling me someone was in danger and needed intercession I have to decide what the Holy Spirit would have me to do, and hope I might be strengthened to preform it .

Jesus in Mathew 4 avoided the dangers (Colossians 2:17-18) that come from experiences before they happened (Jesus refused to believe)

Three time with three denoting the end of the matter Christ said again and again ….as it is written with it representing the final authority of God and the devil was out of the picture. We look to Christ our example to fulfill the loving commandment of God …"Let no man beguile you of your reward"

Colossians 2:17-18 King James Version (KJV) "Let no man beguile you of your reward" in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God

Experience seems to be part of the new age gospel. Have a dream, have a out of the body experience or a near death or possibly coming back from the dead the skies the limit believe .

Actions follow signs .We don't seek after sign to confirm action of someone not seen as someone was in danger and needed intercession only because as a sign we put there by our actions. Like make a noise. Lay on a hand .

Just saying of a book as a perfect law of God that quickens our spirits giving us his understanding working in us with us to both will and do His good pleasure as a living adding word. The authority that does not return void of the purpose God sends it. It is able to judge the intends of any mans thoughts. Like Jesus when tempted by the father of lies was moved to not believe.

The sign that in the authority of or name of Christ, that Christ's words as the gospel would cast out demons and that men, and others spoke in languages other that Hebrew will bring prophecy, or they when looking at false prophecy as the poison coming from the mouth of the father of lies, a serpent. It will not effect those who do not go above that which is written, as they desire that God would heal them with His hand, that His will would be done on earth as it is loosened from heaven in a hope they will recover

Mark 16:16-17 King James Version (KJV) And these "signs" shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Signs follow not lead. Prophecy leads those who follow God not seen .

I did not say we do not experience but rather it will not be confirmed until we receive our new incorruptible bodies, all saints die not receiving it. We have a living Hope that moves us towards the goal, a hope that surpasses human hope

 

[Sketch]

with a warning not to add or subtract.

Wrong. That assumes the the Bible was written as a book rather than collected as a canon of works.