Soon it will be Christmas Day!

[ZNP]

you said
"Lord, Lord, didn't I help produce the Christmas play for the last 20 years?" and have the Lord say "depart from me worker of iniquity, I never knew you".

like the other brother commented surely you would not say that producing a Christmas play is being a worker of iniquity? that is how you make it sound in my mind here. perhaps you mis spoke?

Are you familiar with Gateway Church and the Hillsong church? Are you familiar with the Pedophile priests in the Catholic church? Yes, I am sure many of the people involved in scandalous behavior were also responsible for the Church Christmas play in their respective congregations.

Since most did not understand I will repeat myself, we have seen many scandals in these Mega churches often with Choir directors and worship leaders who are in charge of the Christmas play. If you think helping with the Christmas play will get you into heaven, that is a works based doctrine of salvation. What is essential is that you have a personal relationship with the Lord and that He is the one who is leading you. This is why the Lord said "I never knew you". Doing a good work in the name of the Lord that was not done at his direction is simply doing what is right in your own eyes.

Every single one of us needs to be responding to the Lord's commands. I know many people, myself included, who got involved in ministry because of the Lord's command and we did things that and did not do things, not based on our own opinion but based on His commands. So yes, if someone has been in charge of the Christmas play for twenty years I would like to hear their testimony of how the Lord led them to do that. If their testimony is "I thought it would be good" then they are walking according to what is good in their own eyes. I also want to hear about the fruit of the ministry.

 

[tourist]

Are you familiar with Gateway Church and the Hillsong church? Are you familiar with the Pedophile priests in the Catholic church? Yes, I am sure many of the people involved in scandalous behavior were also responsible for the Church Christmas play in their respective congregations.

What are you basing this assumption on? Do you belong to a religious denomination?

 

[tourist]

you seem to want people to know the truth, and if they observe the truth they will have a better walk with G-D.

The truth as @ZNP knows it.

 

[tourist]

"Lord, Lord, didn't I help produce the Christmas play for the last 20 years?" and have the Lord say "depart from me worker of iniquity, I never knew you".

like the other brother commented surely you would not say that producing a Christmas play is being a worker of iniquity? that is how you make it sound in my mind here. perhaps you mis spoke?

I would call it doing a good work for the Lord in helping to prepare a wholesome family activity.

 

[ZNP]

What are you basing this assumption on? Do you belong to a religious denomination?

What assumption. It has been proven worldwide that about 5% of priests in the Catholic church were pedophiles. Both Gateway church and the Hillside church have had various scandals go public.

There is no "assumption" it has been proven over and over again that there are wolves in sheep's clothing in churches.

I am a member of a non denominational church. But no one is immune, I was listing churches with well known scandals that were already public and that had big Christmas plays. It was not a comprehensive list, only a representative list to demonstrate that helping to produce a Christmas play is no guarantee that you are a believer or that you will go to heaven.

 

[tourist]

What assumption. It has been proven worldwide that about 5% of priests in the Catholic church were pedophiles. Both Gateway church and the Hillside church have had various scandals go public.

What does have to do with helping set up a Christmas party at a church?

 

[ZNP]

What does have to do with helping set up a Christmas party at a church?

Perhaps you missed the whole discussion.

(First we are talking about a Christmas Play, not a party).

1. I was told that a Christmas Play was a good opportunity for gospel outreach of the community. So even if this is not a Biblical holiday the church can still use it to preach the gospel and lead people to the Lord.

2. So I asked to hear some testimonies of people who had been led to the Lord. I pointed out that in one church I observed the Christmas play for 20 years. They did an outstanding job, for a few years we even had a variety of farm animals in the sanctuary during the play. I generally participated every year, usually helping with the sound. But I was able to observe how much time was spent by everyone and how many were involved. I guesstimate it was around 100 people when you include everyone including the Choir and the band and I would estimate that on average it was ten hours per person put into this production. Of course some people spent much more than that, but others might have been as little as 8 or 9 hours (everyone had to be at the dress rehearsal and the two performances). Now I have been involved in evangelistic ministries and if you had 1,000 man hours they would want to see an accounting of how many people you talked to, how many you prayed with, how many were saved, people to follow up with, etc. Over the course of 20 years I never heard any accounting. So I asked for testimonies of ministry leaders led to do this ministry and an accounting of the fruit from this ministry. No one ever does give you that. Granted my observation is only of one church that really went all out on their play for twenty years, that is 20,000 man hours and in my opinion it was the least effective gospel ministry I have ever seen. It is very possible that there were 0 people brought to the Lord from this effort.

3. So changing this from a gospel outreach to a family friendly event for the church, that is not what we have been discussing.

4. So then, the upside on the Christmas play is very low, maybe even close to 0. But what is the downside? Imagine you were in one of those Catholic churches with a pedophile priest or one of these other churches with the scandals of child abuse and sexual abuse. There is a very clear potential downside.

5. My point is that 20 years ago I was told this was an opportunity for gospel outreach because a number of members were questioning why Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday. I'm not interested in hearing that excuse anymore. Someone wants to say it is a gospel outreach then show me the testimonies of those who were saved and let me get an accounting of how effective it is. Otherwise calling it gospel outreach is simply a lie.

6. There has been a very steady decline in church enrollment in the denominations and Catholic church since the 1960s. Why do you think that is? I would think this would be a question that would be examined thoroughly and if you claim that the Christmas play is your gospel outreach it is obviously not working.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That is because when Stephen condemned the Israelites for the idolatry of carrying the star of Remphan you don't understand that as the star on top of the Christmas tree.
What you really mean is that your interpretation of the Bible does not say anything about a Christmas tree.

The Star of Remphan refers to a pagan idol of a star-god, specifically linked to the planet Saturn and worshipped by some ancient Israelites.

No because it isn't. It's a plain six pointed star. People also use things other than a star or angel for their tree. That's your opinion,nothing more. No one putting a star on their tree is worshiping a star God, well spell check won't allow me a lowercase g, anymore than someone wearing Nike shoes is worshiping a God.

It is also because when the Bible says no graven images of the the things in the heavens including angels you don't intepret that to include the angel people hang on the Christmas tree.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Graven image- a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship. 2.
an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone.

When Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees you don't interpret that to include a reference to the human tradition of the Christmas tree.

You just want to check your legalism, you've got a pretty severe case of it.

But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Taken out of context, has nothing to do with Christmas or trees.

When I ask you to look at the fruit from your religious practices you refuse to do so

No I did not refuse. Now you're throwing anything at the wall that sticks. How would I have information for churches across the US and what their outreach of plays do?! You're asking an impossibility and then swatting me for not producing facts I have no access to. Plays are about getting people that don't attend church to come to church and hear the Gospel where the seed is planted. It's arrogant to say that a seed planted is useless, that's well above your pay grade.

The Bible does talk about this, you simply refuse to accept it.

But it doesn't, as badly as you want it to be true, as much as you want to twist it to be true, it doesn't. But no one is forcing you to put a tree in your home and it's not wrong for people who do. That ought to be the end of the discussion.

Also I was not the one who said it was worshipped, you were the one who equated celebrating Jesus' birth with a Christmas tree. To celebrate Jesus' birth is worship.

Where did I say worship the tree, or the tree was Jesus? When we talk about the Trinity and use the comparison of the layers in an egg am I saying the Trinity is an egg? Am I worshiping the egg? Do have to go and throw out all my eggs now, now that I can finally afford them? No, it's called symbolism.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Are you familiar with Gateway Church and the Hillsong church? Are you familiar with the Pedophile priests in the Catholic church? Yes, I am sure many of the people involved in scandalous behavior were also responsible for the Church Christmas play in their respective congregations.
Since most did not understand I will repeat myself, we have seen many scandals in these Mega churches often with Choir directors and worship leaders who are in charge of the Christmas play.

Now you're really grasping for straws. lol Now you're as bad as an adulterer and a pedo if you take part in the church Christmas play. What happened to " I don't condemn anybody".

If you think helping with the Christmas play will get you into heaven, that is a works based doctrine of salvation.

Boy you're swingin' for the fences now! No one ever said that or brought that up.

So yes, if someone has been in charge of the Christmas play for twenty years I would like to hear their testimony of how the Lord led them to do that.

Good, ride around and ask about 50 churches their testimony and get back to us. Not that that would mean anything considering the number of churches in the US.

If their testimony is "I thought it would be good" then they are walking according to what is good in their own eyes. I also want to hear about the fruit of the ministry.

Their testimony will probably be " I wanted to share the Good News about Jesus Birth". Do people tear your testimony apart the way you do to others? Like I said, don't ever become a missionary. You'd quit the first week.

 

[ZNP]

Their testimony will probably be " I wanted to share the Good News about Jesus Birth". Do people tear your testimony apart the way you do to others? Like I said, don't ever become a missionary. You'd quit the first week.

That is fine, what does that have to do with a Christmas tree, and Santa Claus and December 25th? Nothing. Btw I was a missionary in China for 8 years.

 

[Lynx]

Oh, sorry, I didn't see your post, I busy talking to my Christmas tree and bowing down to it. I was going to offer it a sacrifice but all I have is a pound of Walmart hamburger. You think that'll work??

I think using that would summon a demon. I tried walmart "ground beef" one time, but I counted two times - my first and my last. It cooked up exactly like "burgers" at my job (McDonald's) and I know for sure that's not real meat. 100% beef - says so on the box - but nothing said about what percent is meat.

So yeah, I'd be scared to use that in a sacrifical ritual. You might get a daedric prince from Skyrim.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Perhaps you missed the whole discussion.

(First we are talking about a Christmas Play, not a party).

1. I was told that a Christmas Play was a good opportunity for gospel outreach of the community. So even if this is not a Biblical holiday the church can still use it to preach the gospel and lead people to the Lord.

You weren't told that by me so I don't know who you're talkin' about.

It is very possible that there were 0 people brought to the Lord from this effort.

And I told him that he can't possibly know peoples hearts or who God reached through that ministry, which is no less a ministry than his outreach. He's talking about one church in 350,000 to 380,000 churches, Google tells me, in the US. So of course that makes sense that he's right.

Imagine you were in one of those Catholic churches with a pedophile priest or one of these other churches with the scandals of child abuse and sexual abuse. There is a very clear potential downside.

Nobody stop him, he's on a roll!!

My point is that 20 years ago I was told this was an opportunity for gospel outreach because a number of members were questioning why Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday.

They aren't. If we were celebrating a pagan holiday we'd be celebrating Satranilla, whatever it is. We aren't.

I'm not interested in hearing that excuse anymore. Someone wants to say it is a gospel outreach then show me the testimonies of those who were saved and let me get an accounting of how effective it is. Otherwise calling it gospel outreach is simply a lie.

And I told him every time the Gospel is preached it is effective or God is a liar because He said His Word would not return void.

There has been a very steady decline in church enrollment in the denominations and Catholic church since the 1960s. Why do you think that is? I would think this would be a question that would be examined thoroughly and if you claim that the Christmas play is your gospel outreach it is obviously not working.

Nobody has said that either. smh

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I think using that would summon a demon. I tried walmart "ground beef" one time, but I counted two times - my first and my last. It cooked up exactly like "burgers" at my job (McDonald's) and I know for sure that's not real meat. 100% beef - says so on the box - but nothing said about what percent is meat.

So yeah, I'd be scared to use that in a sacrifical ritual. You might get a daedric prince from Skyrim.

I'm rollin' on the floor. Thanks I needed that laugh tonight!!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That is fine, what does that have to do with a Christmas tree, and Santa Claus and December 25th?

I didn't say it had anything to do with sharing the Gospel.

Btw I was a missionary in China for 8 years.

Wonderful and that didn't teach you about sowing a seed? You sow, another waters, so on. That didn't teach you patience?

 

[Eli1]

Very good and entertaining "Christmas is Pagan" thread. I didn't think i'd see one this year.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Very good and entertaining "Christmas is Pagan" thread. I didn't think i'd see one this year.

Do you celebrate Advent? Christmas? My mother had a tradition of leaving the tree up till Old Christmas Day, which is in January, the sixth I believe. Some carry it into February.

 

[Eli1]

Do you celebrate Advent? Christmas? My mother had a tradition of leaving the tree up till Old Christmas Day, which is in January, the sixth I believe. Some carry it into February.

I have always celebrated Christmas with the tree, the lights and putting cotton on it to give it a snow-like appearance.
I just haven't done much with decorations around the house in the last 5 years because i have to take care of other things for the others in the house mostly, so i don't have the time i used to have anymore where i used to spend a week or more with lights outside the house and the tree inside.
And yes, we did keep it until February and we put it as early as Thanksgiving.
I have nothing but nice memories.

 

[Standard]

Remember All,

its nearly Christmas, as I write this I am under attack from the enemy, he has rocked me, and continues his attacks looking for a knock out blow, has me in serious frustration, and recently I was ranting in frustration, to which I try not to do, and I am sure the enemy is thinking he nearly has me, and I do feel off balance.

I remember hearing a story of men in World War II taking Christmas off, and in stead of war, they played soccer together, & enjoyed peace for Christmas Day, wow, very powerful

The enemy will take no such days off, for

"their is no beast so fierce with out a touch of pity, for I have none at all, there for am no beast"
William Shakespeare.

although I do not ascribe this to the evil one, for such comments could leave me in more trouble than I need, yet I speculate

I sometimes wonder who would even want to be a human?, I think I would care not to be a human in this fallen world, yet I am

that said Christmas is nearly here, I hope love will flow thru my heart, I have been trying to bounce back, and have been searching, reading Christian books, reading post here on CC, and hearing about many many Scriptures, which have helped in the short run.

also I heard it said, mind my thoughts, control my thoughts, this I hope will get me thru IN JESUS..

what a ride, I hope you are all doing much better than me in The LORD this day, and I hope to see you all on that Day. I hope all your decisions are in G-DS Great LIGHT, and you are overflowed with HIS LOVE, this Christmas season and beyond

perhaps my wanting good things for you, may help me enjoy the season, & I can tell many of you are very educated on scripture. Just please remember Christians are often in battles and getting beaten up in this world, so please take it from me as I am of broken spirit at this time. be kind, and give support & love. let us not bicker, especially at Christmas time.

that is what the enemy wants I am sure. let us Remember the reason for the season... peace on earth and good will towards men. no fun down here on this planet of the lost, and if your having fun, I pray & hope it is in the LORD JESUS, and if so I hope I can rejoice for you.

for it is no fun being the foolish things of the world, & the chief sinner, to which I am, seems like I am living with constant consequences from my actions

make no mistake, I am very, very blessed, as I can certainly image things could be or get, so, so much worse, quite easily, as I have even heard stories around here.

if it were not for JESUS I would not be alive this day, or I would be certainly down and out, above and beyond all HIS GREAT LOVE FOR me, I can recall a time that HE prevented me from getting hit from a car & who knows the consequences from that, if I would have even survived, & so many other dangers I am sure HE has Delivered me from, and can recall some of them easily as the chief sinner I was doing a deep dive into the abyss, to which I have been delivered.

there was no coming back or returning to the land of the living without G-D Almighty Loving Deliverance.

giving me hope as I remember HIS LOVE & Deliverance

So As I heard it said, I have confidence I will have victory on the path that lay ahead, not because of the lack of dangers that lay ahead, but because of what lyes behind, and the past dangers that I can now recall, JESUS Removed & HE HAS Gotten me Thru, in HIS Great LOVE

in love with& peace

Merry Christmas To all of you, may G-D Bless you, and make you, or keep you filled with warm hearts, & have you strong lights for the whole world to see

if nothing else we must love each other & support each other 1st and foremost, and I have read your kind words here, many times, especially with the newly arrived.

in love & peace
Bruce

a fellow warrior in Christ, although wounded I will ask for forgiveness and again stand to fight soon, I hope & pray!

I pray for all who have read this in JESUS GREAT NAME
& once again Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Amen!
Without Christ we would indeed all be completely lost to this fallen world, preyed upon by some temptation or other. Thanks be to our Lord. Thank You God! We're saved and awaiting eternity with the Lord and let's really thank Him this Christmas... And all of them. He saved us... Amen!

 

[tourist]

That is fine, what does that have to do with a Christmas tree, and Santa Claus and December 25th? Nothing. Btw I was a missionary in China for 8 years.

God bless you for your missionary work for the Lord. Very commendable.

 

[tourist]

I have nothing but nice memories.

That is what Christmas is all about.