So what does this mean?

[brmicke]

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If a person is chosen on the basis of "Grace" what does that mean?

Some people are chosen by God to be given faith and thus inherit eternal life and some have their heart hardened?

The "grace of God" has appeared to all men but only those who respond correctly to that "grace" by humbling themselves before God receive it's benefit, which is the ability to become the sons of God or to abstain from ungodliness.

It is my opinion that Romans 11:5-6 means this -

People are chosen or elected by "Grace". To understand this we must understand how the Bible defines grace.

Grace is scripturally defined as the enablement which a person receives from God that teaches the person to abstain from ungodliness, Titus 2:11-12.

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Since the definition of Grace is "that which teaches a person to abstain from ungodliness" we need to incorporate Paul's definition of grace from Titus 2:11-12 into the truths found in Romans 11:5 and 6.

If we do that we get this --

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace or - (chosen based upon whether or not they have abstained from ungodliness).

Ro 11:6 And if by grace (if the people who are chosen are those who abstain from ungodliness) , then is it no more of works (work's of the Law): otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now to understand that Paul is speaking about the "works of the Mosaic Law" here we must go back to the beginning of the discussion in Romans 9:32 and 10:3.

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the "works of the law". For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The works Paul was speaking about were the "works of the Mosaic law". The people who would not submit to doing things the way God considered right (God's righteousness) were those who wanted to consider themselves right with God if they sacrificed an animal after they sinned. We know that sacrificing an animal would avert God's judgment and the person who sacrificed the animal would be forgiven and "Live" as Romans 10:5 says. But animal sacrifice and submission to external regulations was of no value in resisting the indulgence of the flesh, Col 2:23.

Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.

Sacrificing an animal after sinning would not "write the Law of God on a persons heart", which is what God does under the New Covenant. Sacrificing an animal was however the way to avert God's judgment until Christ came and Jesus brought grace (which would teach them to abstain from ungodliness). The way to be right with God as Abraham found out was to "Have faith", as Romans 10:6 shows. The Mosaic laws simply kept Israel from destroying themselves until Christ came.

The works of the Mosaic Law could not write the Laws of God on a persons heart - only the Grace ushered in by Jesus could do this.

So to put this together -- People are not allowed to work for their salvation in any manner they choose. We are instructed to abstain from ungodliness (ungodliness is defined by scripture as sin). The elect are chosen based upon whether or not they choose to abstain from sin or not.

Brian

 

[reject-tech]

If a person is chosen on the basis of "Grace" what does that mean?

Not on the basis of grace, but confirmed by grace. Because confirmation by works would be considered vanity by the servant doing the works. "Look what I did! Oops, I mean look what you did through me. Oops, I mean aaargh!" <Matthew 24:1-2>

It's "God, I think I'm doing great" vs. "Well done, my child"

Chosen means "elect", chosen does not mean "every Christian"

It is overlooked in the opening of the letter, in Romans 1:7

See if this helps. Read with the assumption that "Israel" might possibly mean "Christianity"
If so, hard words that invoke jealousy or repentance. Reader's choice.

Verses 11:1-4 are reiterated in verses 11:5-6
A reiteration encapsulated by the phrases "Even so" and "What then?"

The cities that are written to address different conditions of the reader.
The names of the writers reflect different viewpoints of the reader.

Love'em all!

 

[Sanashankar]

Only a remnant are chosen in this world to become the priests in the millennium years of Christ. Only the chosen ones whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world. They are the ones who have part in the "first resurrection". Only they will resurrect for the 1000years reign of Jesus Christ.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They are the ones to whom God will give the power to judge the angels

1C 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

How can the elects choose something, when God has already written their destiny. They are chosen from the beginning even before the creation of the world. Can man change that by sinning?can the vessel change the potter's mind?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

and for those who are created to do bad, its like a lepord changing his spots. Impossible!!

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

[Mark51]

When Jesus Christ came to the nation of Israel the majority rejected him. Only a remnant expressed faith and became followers of him. The apostle Paul applies certain prophecies of Isaiah (10:22,　23; 1:9) to this Jewish remnant when he writes: “Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: ‘Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved. For Jehovah will make an accounting on the earth, concluding it and cutting it short.’ Also, just as Isaiah had said aforetime: ‘Unless Jehovah of hosts had left a seed to us, we should have become just like Sodom, and we should have been made just like Gomorrah.’” (Romans 9:27-29) Again Paul uses the example of the 7,000 left in Elijah’s time who had not bowed to Baal, and he says: “In this way, therefore, at the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness.”-Romans 11:5.

True to this prophecy, God allowed the Israelites to be taken captive by their enemies and their temple to be destroyed, forcefully demonstrating the loss of their approved relationship with him. Only a faithful remnant of Israelites (by then known as Jews) returned from captivity in 537　B.C.E. and rebuilt Jehovah’s temple, once again enjoying Jehovah’s favor as his chosen people.

Nevertheless, in the centuries that followed, Jews were besieged by the influence of Greek philosophy-such as the Platonic doctrine of the immortal soul-with catastrophic effects on their worship. That worship would never again be based simply on the teachings of Moses and the Hebrew prophets.

Recognizing that many had once again apostatized from the unadulterated worship of Jehovah, Jesus said: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43) Failing to heed that warning, the majority continued in their apostate course and rejected Jesus as Jehovah’s anointed one. Hence, it was not long afterward that God allowed the rebuilt temple to be destroyed, in 70　C.E. (Matthew 23:37,　38) However, this did not mean that God was now rejecting all Jews.

As Paul, explained: “God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized…. At the present season also a remnant has turned up according to a choosing due to undeserved kindness.” (Romans 11:2,　5) Just as many might be invited to a wedding ceremony but only a few might attend, God had invited the entire Jewish nation into a special relationship with him, but only a remnant of these maintained that special closeness by their faithfulness. God’s forbearance was indeed a display of undeserved kindness!

This faithful Jewish remnant was soon joined by non-Jews who also desired to serve God. Even though their ancestors had not been in a special relationship with him, Jehovah was now willing to accept these faithful non-Jews as his people. Noting this, Paul wrote: “If, now, God…called [us] not only from among Jews but also from among [non-Jewish] nations, what of it? It is as he says also in Hosea: ‘Those not my people I will call “my people.”’”-Romans 9:22-25.

Thus, both Jews and non-Jews could be God’s chosen people, with the prospect of serving as priests in behalf of the rest of mankind. Speaking to faithful worshipers of various national backgrounds, the Christian apostle Peter, a Jew from birth, wrote: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession’ .　.　. For you were once not a people, but are now God’s people.” (1　Peter 2:9,　10) This was the “nation,” people with godly qualities, that Jesus said would produce the ‘fruits of God’s kingdom’ and that would therefore enjoy a special relationship with Jehovah.-Matthew 21:43; Acts 10:34,　35.

Thus, God no longer grants special favor to any person on the basis of birth. He affords people of all national backgrounds the opportunity to build a relationship with him.

If we could meet all of God’s requirements perfectly, it would be a deserved kindness for him to give us the blessings he has promised. But Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are showing us kindness that is “undeserved.” A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, by J.　H.　Thayer, explains the meaning of the word used by the apostle Paul to describe this quality of God: “The word [kha'ris] contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved.” No works of ours can earn God’s blessing. It is, as Paul says, an undeserved kindness. If you are sincerely doing all you can within your limitations to fulfill your obligations to God, be happy at doing that. Jehovah asks no more of you.

Be aware, however, of another of Satan’s “evil tricks.” He misleads some into thinking that they can take advantage of God’s undeserved kindness, that they can presume on his mercy. Jehovah lovingly forgives our weaknesses, but that does not mean we can stop struggling to overcome them. Paul described some who had “trampled upon the Son of God and .　.　. outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt.” (Hebrews 10:29) These had shown no respect for righteous principles and contemptuously flouted God’s laws, putting themselves beyond restoration. Jesus’ half brother Jude, who saw the danger posed by such dupes of Satan, wrote: “Certain men have slipped in[to the congregations], .　.　. ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct.”-Jude 4.

Satan may fool such ones into thinking they can more or less willfully indulge in wrongdoing and then ask God to forgive their sin. But Jehovah will not forgive such willful violators of his laws. He is “abundant in loving-kindness” to those who strive to serve him as best they can despite their imperfections. “But by no means will he give exemption from punishment” when it is due.—Exodus 34:6,　7.

It is comforting to know that Jehovah does not view you only in your imperfect, damaged state. He knows what you can be when the restorative powers of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice are fully applied. Pray confidently to Jehovah, therefore, as the psalmist David did. “Show me favor, O God,” said David, “according to your loving-kindness. According to the abundance of your mercies wipe out my transgressions. Thoroughly wash me from my error, and cleanse me even from my sin. For my transgressions I myself know, and my sin is in front of me constantly. Conceal your face from my sins, and wipe out even all my errors…. A heart broken and crushed, O God, you will not despise.”-Psalm 51:1-3, 9,　17.

Your transgressions and failings may be constantly in front of you. At times you may feel like the prodigal son described by Jesus. When this young man returned home after disgracefully squandering his inheritance in foreign places, he exclaimed to his father: “I am no longer worthy of being called your son”! (Luke 15:21) This young man had the right attitude, however. He neither rejected his father’s kindness nor tried to presume on it. So his father lovingly received him back into the household. (Luke 15:20-24) Jehovah is happy to do the same today for sinful people who earnestly try to do his will.-Psalm 103:8-14; Isaiah 55:7.

 

[brmicke]

If we could meet all of God’s requirements perfectly, it would be a deserved kindness for him to give us the blessings he has promised. But Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are showing us kindness that is “undeserved.” A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, by J.　H.　Thayer, explains the meaning of the word used by the apostle Paul to describe this quality of God: “The word [kha'ris] contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved.” No works of ours can earn God’s blessing. It is, as Paul says, an undeserved kindness. If you are sincerely doing all you can within your limitations to fulfill your obligations to God, be happy at doing that. Jehovah asks no more of you.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote. I would like to comment on the paragraph above.

I really think that the thought expressed in your first two sentences is invalid and I will explain why I think this way -

If we could meet all of God’s requirements perfectly, it would be a deserved kindness for him to give us the blessings he has promised. But Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are showing us kindness that is “undeserved.”

First of all we can meet all of God's requirements as scripture tells us in Deut 30:11.

De 30:11 (ASV) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

First of all the people who delight in self abasement are offensive to me and not truthful with either themselves or others. Colossians 2:18 suggests that through subterfuge a mental attitude of voluntary humility can be forced upon us by our enemies.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Christian people are deceived into thinking that they are incapable of fulfilling God's standards when the opposite is true, As Deut 30:11 shows. The commandments of God are not too hard for us.

This is the bible remember we don't ignore it. Unfortunately most people (even those who study the bible) seem to be delighted to confess that they can never keep God's commandments.

For example most pastors will confess that it is impossible for them to refrain from sinning. This is a direct contradiction to the expressed purpose of Grace, which teaches us to abstain from ungodliness (or sin), Titus 2:11-12. What must God think of Pastors who deny His word and teach others to do so as well?

The reason is that they don't want to keep them, and by convincing themselves and others that it is not possible to really obey God's Law they create an excuse so they don't have to not to try to keep the commandments of God.

Keeping God's laws is not attaining to a "deserved Kindness". This is the wrong way to look at this. God has made the rules and He has made pleasing Him within our power. I n fact since His grace teaches us to abstain from ungodliness, it can be said that He makes us into people who can keep His commandments.

God made the rules and He told us how to please Him. It is within our power to do so. He has not made it so difficult to please Him that we can never attain to it. He said this is not to hard for you to keep my commandments in Deut 30:11. The so-called spiritual people who say that it is too hard for a Christian to keep God's commandments is are trying to deceive them, and either give them a license to sin or as Gal 4:17 says make them the a disciple of man and not of Jesus.

Ga 4:17 (ASV) They zealously seek you in no good way; nay, they desire to shut you out, that ye may seek them.

All of the conversation about being undeserved or unmerited is false. Of course we don't deserve eternal life but that is not the point.

The point is that God in His mercy, has put the attainment of eternal life within our grasp. To convince someone that it is vanity (prideful) to try and attain what God has offered mankind is a despicable lie that originated in hell.

Brian

 

[WeStand]

There is only a remnant, because the rest are religeous; forever learning and NEVER coming to the knowledge of The TRUTH!

Thus, will have to be taught, on The Lord's Day of Teaching and Reckoning.

 

[Bookends]

Grace is scripturally defined as the enablement which a person receives from God that teaches the person to abstain from ungodliness, Titus 2:11-12.

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Since the definition of Grace is "that which teaches a person to abstain from ungodliness" we need to incorporate Paul's definition of grace from Titus 2:11-12 into the truths found in Romans 11:5 and 6.

IMO opinion this is not the definition of Grace, but the outcome or product of Grace. Grace is God's unmerited favor upon those who don't deserve it. A beautiful picture of this Grace is found in 2 Samuel 9 (in bold below should be our response to God's grace):

9 Now David said, “Is there still anyone who is left of the house of Saul, that I may show him kindness for Jonathan’s sake?”

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And there was a servant of the house of Saul whose name was Ziba. So when they had called him to David, the king said to him, “Are you Ziba?”
He said, “At your service!”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the king said, “Is there not still someone of the house of Saul, to whom I may show the kindness of God?”
And Ziba said to the king, “There is still a son of Jonathan who is lame in his feet.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So the king said to him, “Where is he?”
And Ziba said to the king, “Indeed he is in the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, in Lo Debar.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then King David sent and brought him out of the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, from Lo Debar.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, had come to David, he fell on his face and prostrated himself. Then David said, “Mephibosheth?”

And he answered, “Here is your servant!”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So David said to him, “Do not fear, for I will surely show you kindness for Jonathan your father’s sake, and will restore to you all the land of Saul your grandfather; and you shall eat bread at my table continually.”

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then he bowed himself, and said, “What is your servant, that you should look upon such a dead dog as I?”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the king called to Ziba, Saul’s servant, and said to him, “I have given to your master’s son all that belonged to Saul and to all his house. [SUP]10 [/SUP]You therefore, and your sons and your servants, shall work the land for him, and you shall bring in the harvest, that your master’s son may have food to eat. But Mephibosheth your master’s son shall eat bread at my table always.” Now Ziba had fifteen sons and twenty servants.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then Ziba said to the king, “According to all that my lord the king has commanded his servant, so will your servant do.”
“As for Mephibosheth,” said the king, “he shall eat at my table like one of the king’s sons.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]Mephibosheth had a young son whose name was Micha. And all who dwelt in the house of Ziba were servants of Mephibosheth. [SUP]13 [/SUP]So Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem, for he ate continually at the king’s table. And he was lame in both his feet.

King David elected to show mercy and grace to Mephibosheth, Mephibosheth openly received it in humility.

 

[directline2iam]

Christian people are deceived into thinking that they are incapable of fulfilling God's standards when the opposite is true, As Deut 30:11 shows. The commandments of God are not too hard for us.

This is the bible remember we don't ignore it. Unfortunately most people (even those who study the bible) seem to be delighted to confess that they can never keep God's commandments.

For example most pastors will confess that it is impossible for them to refrain from sinning. This is a direct contradiction to the expressed purpose of Grace, which teaches us to abstain from ungodliness (or sin), Titus 2:11-12. What must God think of Pastors who deny His word and teach others to do so as well? /QUOTE brmicke

Excuse me, but, what did Christ fulfill on the cross that was impossible for us? Oh ya, the LAW which is His commandments.
You do errr greatly in you statement.

I think if you understand the old testament you see God not saying do it, but knowing we always fail I think I read, you can do better than what you are doing as far as His law and commandments. I think God has always wanted us to keep trying though we miserably fail. For your righteousness are as filthy rags.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yeah there is a difference between sin and iniquity:

Sin is breaking the Law:

1 Yahchanan 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Iniquity is not being subject to it:

Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity.

To think that we dont even have to subject ourselves to the instructions of our FATHER is error.

Yahshua did not die to set us free from the Father, He died to set us free from sin.

 

[clarkthompson]

Those tha choose Christ as Lord receive His grace.