'slong as the church clings to human freewill she will remain backslidden

[Evmur]

It is a false doctrine.

False doctrines equate to the idols that the Jews worshipped rather than God, often they worshipped God while still clinging to their idols, we see many examples of revival in the OT, God would raise up a prophet or a good king who would clear the land of idolatory and yet time and again we see this sad appendix to many of these revivals "never-the-less the high places were not taken away.

The calves which Jerboam the son of Nabat which caused the whole of northern Israel to sin and was never taken away.

The doctrine of human freewill is like these high places, it clings. Revivals come and go but still it remains.

It is a backslidden condition.

Everyone who ever has been saved knows very well that in order for the new birth to take place we must put aside our will, we must surrender our will at the cross. We must allow God to do for us what we could never do. God does it all for us just like a mother tends to her baby.

Nobody denies we have a will, what we deny is that is free.

Nowhere in the bible talks about human freewill, go see, see if you can find it in the bible. Just a few references in the OT in relation to gifts and offerings, because God will never demand back what He has given.

On the contrary the bible says we are SLAVES, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe.

We do not like to be nursed, we do not like to be helpless, weak. We don't like to be beggars to another's charity [grace] even if that someone is God. Our whole being rises up in rebellion. Our mind eschews such thoughts.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Gen 4 seems to say Cain has free will either to sin, or to master the sin. So this is something that goes back to Creation.

Gen 4: You can do what is right and be accepted; if you don't, sin can have you, but you can master it:

"6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Deut 30:19: You can choose life and death. Life for Blessings, and Death for Curses. You can choose to love God, or not to:

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

James 1: It is an error for man to say "God tempted me or led me into sin". Sin thus comes from our own free will alone

"12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Biblical principle is very clear: if we want, we can choose to sin. If not, we can turn to God, and with His help, avoid sin.

God Bless.

 

[Cameron143]

It is a false doctrine.

False doctrines equate to the idols that the Jews worshipped rather than God, often they worshipped God while still clinging to their idols, we see many examples of revival in the OT, God would raise up a prophet or a good king who would clear the land of idolatory and yet time and again we see this sad appendix to many of these revivals "never-the-less the high places were not taken away.

The calves which Jerboam the son of Nabat which caused the whole of northern Israel to sin and was never taken away.

The doctrine of human freewill is like these high places, it clings. Revivals come and go but still it remains.

It is a backslidden condition.

Everyone who ever has been saved knows very well that in order for the new birth to take place we must put aside our will, we must surrender our will at the cross. We must allow God to do for us what we could never do. God does it all for us just like a mother tends to her baby.

Nobody denies we have a will, what we deny is that is free.

Nowhere in the bible talks about human freewill, go see, see if you can find it in the bible. Just a few references in the OT in relation to gifts and offerings, because God will never demand back what He has given.

On the contrary the bible says we are SLAVES, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe.

We do not like to be nursed, we do not like to be helpless, weak. We don't like to be beggars to another's charity [grace] even if that someone is God. Our whole being rises up in rebellion. Our mind eschews such thoughts.

You are very brave in this post and I was tempted to just reply with humor and and say, "You had me at 'slong. " But before this thread goes awry, and it most certainly will, I would like to make a point for consideration:

Even if we were to have total freewill, is it God's desire for us to exercise it?

I would offer that according to Proverbs 3:5-6 it is not...

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

 

[NotmebutHim]

Again, it comes down to God's sovereignty vs human free will and how we understand each thing.

I agree with what Braxton Hunter and Tim Stratton have said on the issue.

Namely, that God is so great that He in His sovereignty can give free will to mankind. God could have created a world in which humans do not have free will and He would have been justified in doing so. But as it is, human free will does not in any way diminish or limit God's sovereignty and power. At the end of the day, His purposes will still be accomplished. Sovereignty doesn't mean micro-managing; it means having ultimate power and rulership over all things.

God not only knows what we will do, but what we could have done under any circumstances. That's what omniscience means. So regardless of what we decide or don't decide to do, God already knows the outcome and is not surprised or hindered at all by it.

$0.02

 

[Cameron143]

Again, it comes down to God's sovereignty vs human free will and how we understand each thing.

I agree with what Braxton Hunter and Tim Stratton have said on the issue.

Namely, that God is so great that He in His sovereignty can give free will to mankind. God could have created a world in which humans do not have free will and He would have been justified in doing so. But as it is, human free will does not in any way diminish or limit God's sovereignty and power. At the end of the day, His purposes will still be accomplished. Sovereignty doesn't mean micro-managing; it means having ultimate power and rulership over all things.

God not only knows what we will do, but what we could have done under any circumstances. That's what omniscience means. So regardless of what we decide or don't decide to do, God already knows the outcome and is not surprised or hindered at all by it.

$0.02

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that the wages of proffering our thoughts has endured inflation so well, what with the price of everything else increasing as it has.

 

[Evmur]

Gen 4 seems to say Cain has free will either to sin, or to master the sin. So this is something that goes back to Creation.

Gen 4: You can do what is right and be accepted; if you don't, sin can have you, but you can master it:

"6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Deut 30:19: You can choose life and death. Life for Blessings, and Death for Curses. You can choose to love God, or not to:

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

James 1: It is an error for man to say "God tempted me or led me into sin". Sin thus comes from our own free will alone

"12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Biblical principle is very clear: if we want, we can choose to sin. If not, we can turn to God, and with His help, avoid sin.

God Bless.

Choice is not freewill. We do not choose the options nor do we execute the outcome of whatever choice we make. The options before Cain were do what is right and live ... that is God's will but if you sin you shall die, dead men have no freewill.

But what for Cain was "doing right?" was it not to surrender his own religious ideas? for he also brought an offering to God, an offering of his own devising, one that required no death.

It was a work hard to be saved religion requiring working the ground by the sweat of his brow. The way of Abel was sweet surrender, dependence upon faith only, trusting that God would transfer miraculously his sins onto the bleeding, dying sacrifice. We do not know how Abel got the revelation, we are not told.

Cain did not get the revelation.

Big chief Sitting Bull did not get the revelation, So even choice requires first that God gives you the options.

A person being dragged away by their own evil desire does not speak to me of freewill but a will in bondage ... who is doing the enticing? the dragging?

When we accept Jesu's death for us on our behalf we ARE accepting death, death to our old self, to our own way, our "free" will which is not free but in bondage.

We can come to Jesus and rest.

 

[Evmur]

Again, it comes down to God's sovereignty vs human free will and how we understand each thing.

I agree with what Braxton Hunter and Tim Stratton have said on the issue.

Namely, that God is so great that He in His sovereignty can give free will to mankind. God could have created a world in which humans do not have free will and He would have been justified in doing so. But as it is, human free will does not in any way diminish or limit God's sovereignty and power. At the end of the day, His purposes will still be accomplished. Sovereignty doesn't mean micro-managing; it means having ultimate power and rulership over all things.

God not only knows what we will do, but what we could have done under any circumstances. That's what omniscience means. So regardless of what we decide or don't decide to do, God already knows the outcome and is not surprised or hindered at all by it.

$0.02

But where in scripture does God ever say "behold I have given you freewill?"

We do not doubt that God is able, even if man goes opposite away from Him He will still be sovereign, but mankind will be forever lost.

Man is no more fitted to have freewill than a fishy is fitted to live upon the land. Man is created for a PURPOSE, a very high purpose, a multifaceted purpose [it includes intimate friendship with the most high God]

God's will for us is only good. It's all good.

My brothers I implore you by God's mercy to present your very selves to Him a living sacrifice, do not be conformed to the passion of this present age but be transformed by the renewal of your minds that you might know what is that good and perfect will of God.

GIVE UP freewill which is not free but in bondage ... find God's good and perfect will.

 

[Evmur]

There is this similarity which I see in the way evolution is pumped into people's heads and the way in which the doctrine of human free will is pumped into christian's heads.

You can hardly turn on the telly or read a science or nature article, rea a newspaper or mag but you will encounter the evolution theory stated as fact and accepted by pretty much everyone as fact. Christians are laughed at and treated as simpletons for believing we are created by a God of love.

So with the doctrine of human freewill it is proclaimed as a self evident truth in every tract and treatise, every sermon, every theological work.

But it is not the teaching of the Reformation, Luther spent his life arguing against it, arguing vehemently, with passion. He knew it was a Catholic doctrine.

The church has been brainwashed into accepting it.

What it is in fact a spiritual victory the devil has gotten in the church, it is a beach head, a foothold, just like when the allies invaded the Normandy beaches on D day. After a fierce fight they were in, after establishing themselves on the beaches they were able to strengthen their position, build up their forces and weaponry and commence operations within the European mainland.

That's just what the doctrine of human freewill has done.

Where do you think the doctrine of salvation by good works come from? or the denial of the doctrine everlasting life, or probationary salvation? these evil teachings which undermine the very faith of earnest [and especially] weak christians. They come from the idea that if we by our freewill can choose God, which the bible knows nothing about, we can just as easily choose to walk away.

Dirty streams from a dirty source.

There is also a methodism [not the denomination] which accompanies freewill evangelism which the early reformers knew nothing about. Perhaps I will get on to that later.

 

[Magenta]

You are very brave in this post and I was tempted to just reply with humor and and say, "You had me at 'slong. " But before this thread goes awry, and it most certainly will, I would like to make a point for consideration:

Even if we were to have total freewill, is it God's desire for us to exercise it?

I would offer that according to Proverbs 3:5-6 it is not...

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs3-5-6

 

[Evmur]

How does the doctrine of human freewill affect the preaching of the gospels, what are the evils thereof?

Firstly let me say this, before anyone declares that the church is backslidden they must have a soft heart of love toward the church after all the church is us all. we are the church. Brothers and sisters together and more importantly joined to the Lord Himself, we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. Each one of has an inheritance and a stake in the great and glorious Kingdom of God.

I am opposed to the Arminian doctrine of human freewill but I do not say that nobody is saved by it.

The doctrine of freewill sets the preaching of the gospel upon a different dynamic. Christ and the cross are not now alone in their centrality but now must share the centrality of the gospel message with the human will and the human will of men as yet unsaved at that, still in sin and rebellion, not yet alive unto God.

So the direction of focus of the preacher changes.

Whereas the old fashioned preacher used to preach the plain unadorned good news message he used to preach in such a way that God could endorse his message by sending the Holy Ghost down from heaven to convict the hearers of sin and make the hearers sensible of God's power, His righteousness and the certainty of judgement to come.

The deepness and thorough going nature of this work of the Holy Spirit cannot be understated. He is sent to cut men to the quick, to divide between soul and spirit. .... it may take time, it may take days and weeks and months, years. What God is intent on doing is bring about total surrender. The surrender of the human will which is and which always shall be set in enmity against Him.

The focus of the Arminian is subtly different, his focus is the audience, he must preach [so he thinks] a message to move their hearts, one that will persuade their minds and cause them to make a decision to choose Christ. He may preach the same doctrines but the dynamics are radically altered. Inasmuch as he sets his focus upon God to work with him in power he will be successful.

But how will he know if he is successful? only by calling for decisions and calling for decisions to choose Christ made public ... this is a quagmire. The altar call.

It stops dead whatever work the Holy Spirit is doing, that deep, penetrating work of conviction, that bringing to a full end the will and mind of the flesh. Now all that is required is a showing of the hand, or a going forward, a formal prayer.

Remember Paul, he had heard the preaching with divine wisdom of Stephen, had witnessed the miracles God did through his hands, but he continued in rebellion and rage against Christ .... but for long times after the Holy Ghost goaded him and worked upon him and this work was brought to a head on the Damascas Road.

 

[Cameron143]

How does the doctrine of human freewill affect the preaching of the gospels, what are the evils thereof?

Firstly let me say this, before anyone declares that the church is backslidden they must have a soft heart of love toward the church after all the church is us all. we are the church. Brothers and sisters together and more importantly joined to the Lord Himself, we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. Each one of has an inheritance and a stake in the great and glorious Kingdom of God.

I am opposed to the Arminian doctrine of human freewill but I do not say that nobody is saved by it.

The doctrine of freewill sets the preaching of the gospel upon a different dynamic. Christ and the cross are not now alone in their centrality but now must share the centrality of the gospel message with the human will and the human will of men as yet unsaved at that, still in sin and rebellion, not yet alive unto God.

So the direction of focus of the preacher changes.

Whereas the old fashioned preacher used to preach the plain unadorned good news message he used to preach in such a way that God could endorse his message by sending the Holy Ghost down from heaven to convict the hearers of sin and make the hearers sensible of God's power, His righteousness and the certainty of judgement to come.

The deepness and thorough going nature of this work of the Holy Spirit cannot be understated. He is sent to cut men to the quick, to divide between soul and spirit. .... it may take time, it may take days and weeks and months, years. What God is intent on doing is bring about total surrender. The surrender of the human will which is and which always shall be set in enmity against Him.

The focus of the Arminian is subtly different, his focus is the audience, he must preach [so he thinks] a message to move their hearts, one that will persuade their minds and cause them to make a decision to choose Christ. He may preach the same doctrines but the dynamics are radically altered. Inasmuch as he sets his focus upon God to work with him in power he will be successful.

But how will he know if he is successful? only by calling for decisions and calling for decisions to choose Christ made public ... this is a quagmire. The altar call.

It stops dead whatever work the Holy Spirit is doing, that deep, penetrating work of conviction, that bringing to a full end the will and mind of the flesh. Now all that is required is a showing of the hand, or a going forward, a formal prayer.

Remember Paul, he had heard the preaching with divine wisdom of Stephen, had witnessed the miracles God did through his hands, but he continued in rebellion and rage against Christ .... but for long times after the Holy Ghost goaded him and worked upon him and this work was brought to a head on the Damascas Road.

This is well said. Few people really understand how zealous God is for His own glory.

 

[Evmur]

This is well said. Few people really understand how zealous God is for His own glory.

This is true, but as with everything about God there is a purpose in His jealousy. He KNOWS that only He can save, only He can heal and bind up the broken in heart.

God's glory

WE are God's glory, His love for us is His glory. His countenance lights up the heavens when He looks upon us.

THAT'S what Isaiah saw in the temple, the angels cover their eyes and cry holy, holy, holy and Isaiah cries out woe is me a man of sinful lips among a people of unclean lips .... saying the wrong things about God.

I've heard so many sermons on Isaiah's vision.

Isaiah saw Jesus, healing, saving, blessing. He saw the glorious power of it, the glory of it in the temple.

Jesus said that.

When He hid Himself away because although the people had seen so many miracles they did not believe in Him. He quoted Isaiah that the people had eyes that see not etc This [says John] was when Isaiah saw His glory. His glory, Jesu's glory.

 

[Cameron143]

This is true, but as with everything about God there is a purpose in His jealousy. He KNOWS that only He can save, only He can heal and bind up the broken in heart.

God's glory

WE are God's glory, His love for us is His glory. His countenance lights up the heavens when He looks upon us.

THAT'S what Isaiah saw in the temple, the angels cover their eyes and cry holy, holy, holy and Isaiah cries out woe is me a man of sinful lips among a people of unclean lips .... saying the wrong things about God.

I've heard so many sermons on Isaiah's vision.

Isaiah saw Jesus, healing, saving, blessing. He saw the glorious power of it, the glory of it in the temple.

Jesus said that.

When He hid Himself away because although the people had seen so many miracles they did not believe in Him. He quoted Isaiah that the people had eyes that see not etc This [says John] was when Isaiah saw His glory. His glory, Jesu's glory.

Thanks for sharing.