'in your sins ' Was spoken when ? before or after Jesus died for the sins of the world ,reconciled the world ?
Sin and Glory
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I think he is trying to say that, all of us, even non-TULIP followers if we are honest, believe in some form of limited atonement.
Our view of the atonement is that, it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice. Every human can be saved but not everyone will be saved because we still need to exercise faith to accept the gift, thus we rule out the concept of universal salvation.
Those who believe in the concept of limited atonement, however, believes that Jesus only died for a limited group that was chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world. This is called the elected group and they believe that only this group of people can respond to the preaching and accept Jesus as their savior.
If you are not part of the elected group, you have no ability to respond to the message. This is known as the concept of total depravity. Seen from this perspective, the idea of limited atonement has the view that atonement is unlimited in the sense that the grace is irresistible to the elect, but limited in its scope as it applies only to the elected group
Romans 5:12-17 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for [a]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [b]type of Him who was to come.
15 But [c]the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from ontransgression[d]resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions [e]resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression [f]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [g]there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
This is my favorite passage regarding the divine exchange. But, if I was being honest, I could acknowledge a possible asymmetry there.
In this passage, Paul is saying that all of us, having descended from Adam, are born in sin. We didn’t have a choice there, it is enough to be a human being for us to be born in sin.
Yet, in order to be saved, Jesus being our substitute is not sufficient in itself, we need to receive it by faith (v17), in order to be righteous.
No doubt you just need to receive this free gift by faith so Jesus made it very easy for us to be saved, he has done all the work.
But from this acknowledgement, I do understand why some people might find the concept of limited atonement appealing.
It will solve the asymmetry problem. If Adam sin is indeed so powerful that it condemns all human beings to be born with sin, not giving us any choice, it may make sense to also believe that Jesus, being the final Adam, did at least an equally powerful work, by making this salvation irresistible to those who are elected by God.
That's my point . And I'm trying to demonstrate that its not the atonement that saves ( on its own ) So the whole ' limited ' , extent , intent is all irrelevant to what saves .
I think this verse is key .a]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jesus has dealt with this issue. So limited atonement in any sense is irrelevant. Limited atonement hangs on the other equally irrelevant points in Calvinism . But there is no such tension in the scriptures . Once you accept the first Point , the T your trapped by the reformed Web. it has you and its very difficult to find your way back out the maze .
The point was that, man did not have to choose "to be in Adam", in order to receive his "free gift" of a sinful nature.
Yet, it appears that, man need to choose "to be in Christ", in order to receive his "free gift" of righteousness.
You do recognize that, if you agree with the 2 premises, you are actually saying that Jesus, being the final Adam, his obedience on the cross is "less powerful" than the first Adam's disobedience at the garden of eden?
but it's not applied to all, as you say -- you are preaching limited atonement.
He died for all; He bore the sins of many. reconciling the world: therefore this is the message to the world, be reconciled. whoever does not believe is condemned already, and will die in their sins.
I can see you also understand why all of us believe in some form of limited atonement?
It seems to me that the heart of the issue is that the meaning of atonement has been lost in translation.
The manner in which atonement is being understood is a literal payment of a sin-price, instead the payment is ransom. A ransom may be refused by the one on whose behalf it is offered and so in that sense the cross pays the price for those who accept His sacrifice.
But that is not atonement, Biblically. If we look to atonement in the old testament we find that the principle concern is cleanliness not guilt. The blood of the sacrifices cleaned the implements of the temple so that God's presence could remain in the temple. In the same way the blood of Jesus cleanses all flesh so that God may dwell in our humanity as the new temple.
The flesh is clean in the atonement and all sin is forgiven, but reconciliation takes action from both parties. Those who are judged and condemned are condemned not on the old guilt of the sin of blind flesh but the knowing guilt of resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The manner in which atonement is being understood is a literal payment of a sin-price, instead the payment is ransom. A ransom may be refused by the one on whose behalf it is offered and so in that sense the cross pays the price for those who accept His sacrifice.
But that is not atonement, Biblically. If we look to atonement in the old testament we find that the principle concern is cleanliness not guilt. The blood of the sacrifices cleaned the implements of the temple so that God's presence could remain in the temple. In the same way the blood of Jesus cleanses all flesh so that God may dwell in our humanity as the new temple.
The flesh is clean in the atonement and all sin is forgiven, but reconciliation takes action from both parties. Those who are judged and condemned are condemned not on the old guilt of the sin of blind flesh but the knowing guilt of resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
could you explain what you mean by ' limited atonement
If the government bought houses for every single person on the planet ,and said to recieve one you had to simply collect the keys and its yours for life . There's nothing ' limited ' about this . There's a house for everyone. But if they don't collect the keys they won't recieve it .If they don't recieve the House its not theirs to own .
Romans 5.11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW RECEIVED the atonement.
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
(Romans 4:25)
those He justified, He also glorified
(Romans 8:30)
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died — more than that, who was raised to life — is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
(Romans 8:33-34)
i don't see 'no condemnation for those who are glorious' in here? but it is writing, that no charge can be brought against those who are justified - who is it that can condemn who God has justified?
so i'll restate it again -- there's a problem if someone's theology has God condemning people God Himself justified.
i.e. the whole world is able to be justified/reconciled to Him through the cross & resurrection, but not all receive it. if all sin stands atoned for, then there can be no just judgement. atonement/justification that is unlimited both in scope and application would have people without sin dying "in their sins" -- a clear contradiction.
nothing limited about the strength of His back.
what's limited is what He actually carries on His back -- only those who by faith put their trust in Him.
see post #4
He died for all; He bore the sin of "many"
He tasted death for every man; He gave His life a ransom for "many"
He was delivered over to death for our sins ( The sins of the whole world ) and was raised to life for our justification (Resurrection. )
(Romans 4:25
' our sins ' is not exclusive to those Paul was speaking to, anymore than this verse means Jesus only gave his Life for Paul .
Galatians 2:20-21
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .