Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Quasar92]

Is this what you are saying?

1. First resurrection....Jesus

2. 2nd resurrection......Begin 7 yrs

3. 3rd resurrection......End 7, begin 1000

4. 4th resurrection......End 1000

4 Resurrections?

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1 Cor 15:23-28, says that the 1st resurrection is Jesus,

Then the 2nd resurrection is at His coming,

Then comes the end,

But you say that it is not the end, yes/no?

No, that is not what I said nor inferred. #1 is not a general resurrection.. #2 is NOT a resurrection, or it would contradict Rev.20:4, seven years later, Jesus told John, is the FIRST general resurrection. The dead in Christ who will RISE first, in 1 Thess.4:16, already have. Each in his own turn, as he died physically. When Jesus RAISED him up to heaven according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirming Ecc.12:7 and 1 Thess.4:14, when they will all return with Christ from heaven, when He returns, in verse 16.

Hope this helps.

Quasar92

 

[abcdef]

No, that is not what I said nor inferred. #1 is not a general resurrection.. #2 is NOT a resurrection, or it would contradict Rev.20:4, seven years later, Jesus told John, is the FIRST general resurrection. The dead in Christ who will RISE first, in 1 Thess.4:16, already have. Each in his own turn, as he died physically. When Jesus RAISED him up to heaven according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirming Ecc.12:7 and 1 Thess.4:14, when they will all return with Christ from heaven, when He returns, in verse 16.

Hope this helps.

Quasar92

1 Cor 15:23-28,

So which resurrection is Paul talking about,

when he says that after His coming,

it is the end?

 

[KJV1611]

Maybe this will help. There are only two resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus and all the Old Testament saints that rose from the dead when Jesus died are the first resurrection or resurrection of life. The saints that are dead when Christ returns are all part of the resurrection of life or first resurrection.

The rest of the dead will be raised at the end, these are the second resurrection or resurrection of damnation.

My two cents lol.

 

[abcdef]

Maybe this will help. There are only two resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus and all the Old Testament saints that rose from the dead when Jesus died are the first resurrection or resurrection of life. The saints that are dead when Christ returns are all part of the resurrection of life or first resurrection.

The rest of the dead will be raised at the end, these are the second resurrection or resurrection of damnation.

My two cents lol.

John 5:25-27, "Now is", When Jesus rose with the OT saints. 1st resurrection R 20:5

Jesus is seen with these souls in heaven in 96 ad

--

John 5:28-29, When "all", just and unjust, 2nd coming/resurrection, R 20:8-10

After this, it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23-28

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The trib and the mill must take place between these 2 resurrections.

 

[Quasar92]

1 Cor 15:23-28,

So which resurrection is Paul talking about,

when he says that after His coming,

it is the end?

Reference by Paul, is to the first resurrection, documented in Rev.20:4, in the 5th verse, in parenthesis, in the NIV. 1 Cor.15:51-52, is reference to two events; those left on earth alive, when Jesus comes for His Church, in 1 Thess.4:16, who will be translated without ever dieing physically, and to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4.


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

From the very beginning of our Lord's church, churches and saints have suffered tribulation just because of their belief in and service to Christ. It came from the Jews, Rome, and for 1000 years from Catholicism. Millions have died during the last 1900 plus years.
Now that tribulation is coming at the hands of Islam in the Middle East and in Africa.
Thank God that that tribulation has not come upon us in the US----But it soon will.
Why is it that those Christians in the US believe that in some way we are so much more righteous than our forefathers and those in the Middle East and Africa, that God is going to snatch us out of this world and we will never have to suffer tribulation. I would think my self very arrogant if I believed that.
I think part of the problem is that some (one poster in particular) who can not understand that the coming tribulation and God wrath are not the same. Tribulation comes before Christ return and wrath comes after.
That is what the Scripture clearly teaches.

EXACTLY!! Pre-tribbers in the US tend to think that the persecuted church is bad and that they deserve what they are getting while we sit over here in our life of luxury and should never face any trouble for our faith.

You are correct, perhaps the biggest mistake (other than twisting scripture) that pre-tribbers make is they think that the Great Tribulation (of Israel) is worldwide and is the same thing as God's Wrath. If they could learn that the GT applies to Israel and that God's Wrath comes in response, they might start to see that their rapture timing is premature and unnecessary.

We aren't appointed to Wrath but we are clearly appointed to tribulation (small t) as Jesus clearly teaches and as history has proven. 50 million Christians have been killed by ISLAM under the Ottoman Empire alone.

 

[abcdef]

Reference by Paul, is to the first resurrection, documented in Rev.20:4, in the 5th verse, in parenthesis, in the NIV.

In 1 Cor 15:23, This statement, "Christ the firstfruits", shows that this resurrection, called the first, is the one where Jesus rose.

All the OT saints were resurrected to eternal life, Eph 4:8-10, in the first resurrection (Jesus).

R 20:4-6, is showing the resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints, who now rule the Pentecost kingdom through their words (Bible).

-----

1 Cor.15:51-52, is reference to two events;

Jn 5:28-29, "all", good and evil, at the same "event"

those left on earth alive, when Jesus comes for His Church, in 1 Thess.4:16, who will be translated without ever dieing physically, and to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4.

Th 4:14-18, 3 groups, at His coming

1. v 14, "will God bring with him."......OT saints who were resurrected with Jesus at the 1st resur.


2. v 16, "the dead in Christ shall rise first",......All who have died in Christ since the first resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-24, His coming, 2nd resur.

3. v 17, "we which are alive"..........."His coming" 1 Cor 15:23-24, 2nd resur.

John 5:28-29, shows that this happens at the same time.

Then it is the end, when death is destroyed and when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to God for the wedding.

 

[PlainWord]

Reference by Paul, is to the first resurrection, documented in Rev.20:4, in the 5th verse, in parenthesis, in the NIV. 1 Cor.15:51-52, is reference to two events; those left on earth alive, when Jesus comes for His Church, in 1 Thess.4:16, who will be translated without ever dieing physically, and to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4.


Quasar92

What are resurrection saints, seen as souls, doing in heaven?

 

[Jon316]

It would be nice to be raptured and not go through tribulation.
If I'm raptured, glory be to God! If I'm not...glory be to God!

 

[popeye]

When do we get to see the scriptures against the......?

 

[zone]

soooooo.....did we decide against pretrib rapture, then?
it's total nonsense so hopefully we know that by now.

 

[popeye]

soooooo.....did we decide against pretrib rapture, then?
it's total nonsense so hopefully we know that by now.

What is nonsense is a thread with a reference to verses,but in fact there are zero " against" a pretrib rapture.

(unless you can school us as to what verses postrib rapture adherents use to come to their wild conclusions)

 

[zone]

What is nonsense is a thread with a reference to verses,but in fact there are zero " against" a pretrib rapture.

(unless you can school us as to what verses postrib rapture adherents use to come to their wild conclusions)

ahaha.
I might post on it one day.
there's not a single pretrib verse.

 

[zone]

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth – Debunking The 70th Week Of Daniel

note: I disagree with the later premise that the Feast of Trumpets = The Second Advent.

 

[Angela53510]

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth – Debunking The 70th Week Of Daniel

note: I disagree with the later premise that the Feast of Trumpets = The Second Advent.

So good to see you back again, Zone! You have been missed.

 

[Angela53510]

Another repost from me. I see I have not really posted on this thread. Although I have in many others about the rapture, and all this other nonsense.


"1 Thess. 4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." NIV

άρπαγησόμεθα - harpagesometha -future active indicative from the verb άρπάζω, meaning to be caught up, snatched up in the air.*

I agree with others totally on this word. But the word in question for me is not about "being caught up," but instead, the word "meet."

άπάντησις - apantesis - fem, noun, nominative case. The word has a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city, and would then ceremonially escort him back into the city.*

Other occurrences of this word in the New Testament is Acts 28:15-16

"The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to MEET us. At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged. 16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him."

Therefore, we will be caught up in the air to return with Jesus back to a renewed and restored earth. There is no mention in this or any other passage that believers will be snatched away, rather going to meet Jesus and returning with him, as the believers in Rome went out to meet Paul and went back with him to the city.

The final reference which uses this word meet is in Matt. 25:6

"At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to MEET him!" The virgins went out to meet the bridegroom then went back with him."

This word in other Greek sources always refers to the people going out to meet a returning conqueror. The accompany him back to the city. They are not taken elsewhere.

Show me any where in Greek where it says they are taken somewhere, rather than returned. In fact, rapture as you have correctly stated is from the Latin Vulgate and is a corruption of the original Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin. (Vulgate was translated in approx. 382 AD)

As for the tribulation, we are always in the tribulation. Take places like Communist China and North Korea and India and Saudi Arabia and Eritrea. Those believers are being killed for their faith, just as believers have often died for their faith.

Rev. 7:14 "I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

θλίφις - thliphis - trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. This is the only reference to the tribulation in the Bible. Any Bible scholar knows you do NOT make a doctrine nor write a book based on one scripture. But fanciful interpretation of Rev. has gotten more than Harold Camping in trouble for this very poor reading of the Greek.# Poor hermeneutics does not a doctrine make!

Believe what you want. But if you want the truth, look at the original Bible, not the writings of men. And put the words into context of who Paul and Luke and John were writing to - the people of their own time, not the 21st century Christian."

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" by Cleon L. Rogers Jr. and Cleon L. Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1998.

# The Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature. 3rd Edition. Danker and Bauers, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

 

[PlainWord]

soooooo.....did we decide against pretrib rapture, then?
it's total nonsense so hopefully we know that by now.

Yes, welcome back sister. I missed your wisdom and insight.

 

[PlainWord]

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth – Debunking The 70th Week Of Daniel

note: I disagree with the later premise that the Feast of Trumpets = The Second Advent.

Some good stuff in that link. But still too much lack of understanding about the Beast and its mark and the scope of things to come.

The Harlot is ISLAM

Therefore the Beast that supports ISLAM must be an Islamic state which takes over 1/4 of the world. Those deceived are Muslims, they are the ones with a false prophet (Muhammad) and false god (Allah). They follow an anti-Christian religion which promoted "death" instead of "love" for one's enemies. They kill prophets and saints. They are "marked" for judgment.

Anyway, since we last spoke on here, I now agree with you that there is no millennial reign on earth. This period of 1,000 years took place (and is still taking place) in heaven. Thus, there will be no third man-made temple on earth.

 

[KohenMatt]

Well, it's important to first take a look at the Scriptures that talk about our concept of Scripture.


Wait, there are none. Nevermind.

 

[zone]

Some good stuff in that link. But still too much lack of understanding about the Beast and its mark and the scope of things to come.

The Harlot is ISLAM

Therefore the Beast that supports ISLAM must be an Islamic state which takes over 1/4 of the world. Those deceived are Muslims, they are the ones with a false prophet (Muhammad) and false god (Allah). They follow an anti-Christian religion which promoted "death" instead of "love" for one's enemies. They kill prophets and saints. They are "marked" for judgment.

Anyway, since we last spoke on here, I now agree with you that there is no millennial reign on earth. This period of 1,000 years took place (and is still taking place) in heaven. Thus, there will be no third man-made temple on earth.

hi bud.
very very cool that you are past some non existent millennial reign.

i'll bypass the Islam thing for now - Islam is NOT in the bible.
God teaches us by how He dealt with Israel - ancient apostate Israel was the harlot.

apply your no-millennium thinking to the harlot.
Israel was harlot, Ceasarist Rome was the beast.