Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[GaryA]

But anyway.....what I'm saying is, even if I somehow came to know that F.E. was true, I probably wouldn't even bother trying to convince anyone, would be better and easier to convince them that Jesus died for them, God loves them and He wants a relationship with them. Because THAT is something solidly worth contending for in my book.

In terms of [ultimate] importance, I totally agree with you concerning sharing the gospel.

All the best to you Mr. Gary! I do have more Flat Earth questions but I'm not sure I should ask them, I don't want to waste your time just to satisfy my own intrigue.

It is not so much of a waste of my time if you-or-whoever is genuine in your interest in Flat Earth. It is the hecklers, naysayers, etc. that waste my time - and their time - and everyone's time.

Ask away - only, you may have to wait a bit after asking the question until I can get around to posting an answer.

And, of course, someone else may be able to post something that answers your question. Go ahead and ask your questions.

What do you think of the "Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition" offered in this thread? Does it answer any of your questions?

If you have a question that is too far removed from the context of this thread - start a new thread and ask your question.

But I will pray for His help and guidance for you in the matters that you mentioned taking up your time and focus IRL. <3

In Christ,
Nichole

Right now - to me personally - this means the most.

"Thank you, dear..." <3

In Christ,
Gary

 

[GaryA]

As far as my time goes - I think my time on CC has-been-and-will-be "dwindling" as necessary IRL things take more of my attention.

I did not mean that I was about to drop off of CC and disappear; rather, that I intend to shift a lot of my attention and time to some IRL things in a way that will very likely mean I will be spending less time on CC. (At least until I get some much needed things "ironed out"...)

 

[Romans34]

Polaris is very near to the North polar axis and also quite distant. Its position in the sky is essentially unchanging to all but modern measurements. This makes it very useful for navigation.

Further, because it is so far away, its elevation angle is the same as the latitude of the observer on Earth. That alone makes a flat Earth impossible, but there are many other lines of evidence.

Now, can you please explain Polaris from your FE perspective, accounting for the observable phenomena.

The reason Polaris appears to always be in the same spot (though not percisely) is because its distance from earth (aprx 448 light years) is aprx 14M times farther than the distance between earth on either side of the gravitational center of our galaxy (aprx 186M mi.) (We wouldn't say "on either side of the Sun", as technically the Sun and Earth both orbit around the gravitational center of our galaxy.)

If you mean earth's axial tilt of 23 degrees off earth's orbital plane "around the Sun"... then in relation to Polaris appearing to stay in the same place, this is because the tilt is fixed. It just describes earth's spinning axis, by degrees, in relation to its solar orbital plane. So it's not a factor in observing Polaris.

I am sorry it took to long to get back to you, but I don't have a great deal of time right now. I see Polaris as being above the earth in the center (doesn't have to be exact), with the other stars "circling" around as illustrated by the appearance from a spinning globe (there are many things for which observation could apply to either BE or FE). But I cannot see the "North polar axis" coming from the "North pole" remaining pointed in this fairly specific direction as the earth travels around the sun in a circumference equal to 186 million mile diameter while the sun goes speeding in what is usually illustrated as a straight line through the galaxy / universe. It is much easier to see the heavenly host much closer and smaller, and then is easy to understand how they will fall to earth one day. If you don't believe the stars fill fall to earth, then this proposition isn't much for your consideration. But I cannot get away from the words of Scripture concerning the matter. I don't understand EVERYTHING about FE any more than I do about BE (never have claimed to), but I DO believe the Word of God. And the FE Model explains a whole lot more to me about the inconsistencies with what I was taught in High School.

 

[Romans34]

Thank you for your response! I'm confused about something though.... you said it's irrelevant whether sun, moon, stars etc. are flat or spherical...... why? If the whole flat earth "doctrine" is based off the necessity of the Earth being flat, why does it only matter if the Earth is flat, and not the heavenly bodies? Don't they matter too? Why are they allowed to spherical, and the Earth isn't?

No worries! But I would be curious about your viewpoint on the same things I inquired of Gary.... if the Bible isn't clear on the subject, why does it matter so much? Seems it could be a distraction from the gospel if we aren't careful .

I believe the explanation that GaryA gave was sufficient. I would only add that this truth exposes the many lies that are a greater distraction from the gospel (space, evolution, etc.). If man cannot have millions of miles, then he cannot have millions of years. And if man cannot have millions of years, then he cannot have evolution. And if he cannot have evolution, then he has to face the reality there is a God he will give an answer to. While it is true that many over time have still chosen paganism and false gods, the modern day distractions can be imposed ignoring religion and the reality that men are NOT gods and MUST one day give an answer to a Higher Power.

 

[Dino246]

I am sorry it took to long to get back to you, but I don't have a great deal of time right now. I see Polaris as being above the earth in the center (doesn't have to be exact), with the other stars "circling" around as illustrated by the appearance from a spinning globe (there are many things for which observation could apply to either BE or FE). But I cannot see the "North polar axis" coming from the "North pole" remaining pointed in this fairly specific direction as the earth travels around the sun in a circumference equal to 186 million mile diameter while the sun goes speeding in what is usually illustrated as a straight line through the galaxy / universe. It is much easier to see the heavenly host much closer and smaller, and then is easy to understand how they will fall to earth one day. If you don't believe the stars fill fall to earth, then this proposition isn't much for your consideration. But I cannot get away from the words of Scripture concerning the matter. I don't understand EVERYTHING about FE any more than I do about BE (never have claimed to), but I DO believe the Word of God. And the FE Model explains a whole lot more to me about the inconsistencies with what I was taught in High School.

Consider how Polaris appears at an angle of elevation equal to the observer’s latitude, and explain how that could be possible were it much closer and above a flat Earth.

It couldn’t be.

 

[tedincarolina]

The only failure here is BE theory answering the question how far did the water fall to the earth?

Hi @Romans34

As I understand it, the rain would have fallen from the cloud atmosphere that surrounds our planet just as it does today. When the Scriptures use the word 'heavens', there are three intentions that can be meant. The atmosphere of clouds and wind currents that surround our earth. The universe full of stars. The place where God resides.

So, when the rain fell from the 'windows in the heavens' it fell from the clouds that surround our planet just like rain falls pretty much as it does today. Now, if you really want to get into the hard to comprehend, let's talk about that waters the sprung forth from the deep of the earth. That's something that we've never experienced.

 

[Sculpt]

Consider how Polaris appears at an angle of elevation equal to the observer’s latitude, and explain how that could be possible were it much closer and above a flat Earth.

It couldn’t be.

I'm not sure what that means. Could you illustrate that?

 

[Dino246]

I'm not sure what that means. Could you illustrate that?

Source: Earth28: Latitude & Longitude (bates.edu)

PS: An open challenge to EVERY "Flat Earth" proponent: Explain this real-world observed phenomenon in your FE worldview.

 

[Romans34]

Hi @Romans34

As I understand it, the rain would have fallen from the cloud atmosphere that surrounds our planet just as it does today. When the Scriptures use the word 'heavens', there are three intentions that can be meant. The atmosphere of clouds and wind currents that surround our earth. The universe full of stars. The place where God resides.

So, when the rain fell from the 'windows in the heavens' it fell from the clouds that surround our planet just like rain falls pretty much as it does today. Now, if you really want to get into the hard to comprehend, let's talk about that waters the sprung forth from the deep of the earth. That's something that we've never experienced.

And since Psalm 148:4 refers to "ye waters that be above the heavens" (plural = 2 or more), then there's water above the "universe full of stars", assuming you expect the "place where God resides" is above all else?

 

[tedincarolina]

And since Psalm 148:4 refers to "ye waters that be above the heavens" (plural = 2 or more), then there's water above the "universe full of stars", assuming you expect the "place where God resides" is above all else?

Hi @Romans34

Well, that wouldn't be my understanding of the supplied passage. And of course, no matter how one parses that particular passage out, it doesn't make any reference or seem to be any kind of inference that the earth itself is flat.

 

[WayneNSO]

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

There is no doubt, if we are honest, and not trying to fit the Bible into Modern scientific thinking, that the Bible is a flat Earth with a dome (firmament) book, so we either believe it is so - or alternately we say it was talking down to ignorant people, using language they would understand with their lack of knowledge

 

[tedincarolina]

Hi all,

I do, however, have two questions for those who believe that the Scriptures confirm a flat earth.

1. How thick is the flat earth? I mean, it can't be the thickness of a grain of sand or we couldn't build buildings on it, right? Is it a mile thick? 10 miles? 100 miles? But really, how thick is the flat earth?

2. No matter the thickness, what's on the other side? What does the bottom side of the earth look like? Do we have pictures of it? I mean, we have this flat earth that is obviously many, many thousands of miles around that many of us fly to and fro across the face of this flat earth. But if it's flat, doesn't there have to be a bottom side? Can we just go to the edge and drop down the 50, 100 or however many miles thick the flat earth is and see another flat side that covers the same expanse as the top part that we're walking on?

Is anyone who supports the flat earth understanding able to answer those questions? Or does anyone have some argument for a flat earth that would not have another side to it? If anyone is standing on the earth, and it is flat, then isn't it true that however, thick that flat earth is, there's going to be a like size bottom under the dirt under my feet?

God bless,
Ted

 

[WayneNSO]

The firmament (Hebrew: רָקִ֫יעַ‎ rāqīaʿ) is the vast solid dome created by God, you can get past it and fall under the Earth

 

[tedincarolina]

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

There is no doubt, if we are honest, and not trying to fit the Bible into Modern scientific thinking, that the Bible is a flat Earth with a dome (firmament) book, so we either believe it is so - or alternately we say it was talking down to ignorant people, using language they would understand with their lack of knowledge

HI @WayneNSO

There is, of course, a third option. That the one who thinks the earth is flat isn't understanding what God has said about the earth. You know, not the Scriptures are talking down to ignorant people, but rather that ignorant people are unable to understand the words used to describe the shape of the earth found in the Scriptures. There is a third option.

Just curious, but do you have an answer to my questions posted above in #792.

How thick is this flat earth that we're standing on?

 

[WayneNSO]

HI @WayneNSO

There is, of course, a third option. That the one who thinks the earth is flat isn't understanding what God has said about the earth. You know, not the Scriptures are talking down to ignorant people, but rather that ignorant people are unable to understand the words used to describe the shape of the earth found in the Scriptures. There is a third option.

Just curious, but do you have an answer to my questions posted above in #792.

How thick is this flat earth that we're standing on?

I posted a reply to the underneath the Earth thing, and as for options, it used to be the belief of the Hebrews, it is our Modern understanding of cosmology that has changed, so people that believe the Bible teach a flat Earth under a dome are in fact believing what was originally believed.

 

[tedincarolina]

I posted a reply to the underneath the Earth thing, and as for options, it used to be the belief of the Hebrews, it is our Modern understanding of cosmology that has changed, so people that believe the Bible teach a flat Earth under a dome are in fact believing what was originally believed.

Hi @WayneNSO

While I disagree that's what anyone has ever believed about the shape or form of the earth, what a group of people may or may not have believed about a particular issue isn't necessarily the physical truth about that thing. I mean, there are a lot of gods out there that people of different nations absolutely believe in. That doesn't make the actual existence of those gods a reality of what is.

Anyway, if you'd point me to the particular post where you addressed my question, I'll be happy to look at it. Or you could just simply say how thick the flat earth is. I mean, it's just a number. And I'm not about to read through nearly 800 posts to find the one that you claim you've already addressed my concern in.

 

[WayneNSO]

Hi @WayneNSO

While I disagree that's what anyone has ever believed about the shape or form of the earth, what a group of people may or may not have believed about a particular issue isn't necessarily the physical truth about that thing. I mean, there are a lot of gods out there that people of different nations absolutely believe in. That doesn't make the actual existence of those gods a reality of what is.

Anyway, if you'd point me to the particular post where you addressed my question, I'll be happy to look at it. Or you could just simply say how thick the flat earth is. I mean, it's just a number. And I'm not about to read through nearly 800 posts to find the one that you claim you've already addressed my concern in.

The post was 793 but I notice I made a typo in it, it should of read you can not get past it lol

The firmament (Hebrew: רָקִ֫יעַ‎ rāqīaʿ) is the vast solid dome created by God, you can get past it and fall under the Earth

 

[tedincarolina]

The post was 793 but I notice I made a typo in it, it should of read you can not get past it lol

The firmament (Hebrew: רָקִ֫יעַ‎ rāqīaʿ) is the vast solid dome created by God, you can get past it and fall under the Earth

Hi @WayneNSO

Oh yea, I read that. It doesn't say anything in answer to my question. You say you can get past the firmament and fall under the earth. Ok. Let's do this the easy way. How far would you fall before finding yourself under the earth? And hasn't anyone ever done that and taken a picture of it for us? Or have those who have fallen under the earth just never come back and no one has ever reported them missing?

 

[WayneNSO]

Hi @WayneNSO

Oh yea, I read that. It doesn't say anything in answer to my question. You say you can get past the firmament and fall under the earth. Ok. Let's do this the easy way. How far would you fall before finding yourself under the earth? And hasn't anyone ever done that and taken a picture of it for us?

Noooo, I said that was typo - you can NOT get under it

 

[tedincarolina]

Noooo, I said that was typo - you can NOT get under it

Hi @WayneNSO

Oh, I see, so you said you wrote it wrong and then reposted it as you wrote it wrong. Got it! Sorry that I misunderstood.

So, is the moon within the firmament? What about Mars? I mean we've sent men and machines to both of them and if they're not within the confines of the firmament, then we can get past it. If they are, then how far does the firmament extend beyond the sky of clouds that we see? And why can't we get past the firmament? We have telescopes that can peer far into the universe. Is all of that within the firmament?