Saved by Water

[SophieT]

It's all about sharing the truth in love. It would be much easier to just walk away. However, I for one am glad someone took the time to point out that what is commonly taught concerning water baptism is not what Jesus and the apostles taught as confirmed by their actual words, and actions.

What I say is easily proven through the bible as well as historical encyclopedias, etc. that address the truth about the name of Jesus being replaced with the use of the phrase in connection with water baptism. This occurred hundreds of years after the apostolic era.

Your continued attacks cannot change that fact. It is well documented.

gee I am only sharing the truth in love...as you would say

what you say is not even in the Bible as has been proven to you mulitple times in this thread and others

you refer to what Jesus said but you do not do what Jesus said to do

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I feel like it would be very difficult for someone to explain to Jesus that they believed on him, but they just didnt want to get baptized. I'm just trying to imagine what kind of faith such a person has. Like "yes, I believe in Jesus, but I'm not going to even do the simplest command from him". Sounds like dead faith to me, if your faith isn't even working enough in you to get into some water, then what is your faith doing? I dont think you can "believe into salvation" then never do anything with God for the rest of your life.

to me this would be a dead faith. (see James)

as I see it. they were not saved not because they did no work. but because they had no faith (did not believe)

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

 

[SophieT]

I feel like it would be very difficult for someone to explain to Jesus that they believed on him, but they just didnt want to get baptized. I'm just trying to imagine what kind of faith such a person has. Like "yes, I believe in Jesus, but I'm not going to even do the simplest command from him". Sounds like dead faith to me, if your faith isn't even working enough in you to get into some water, then what is your faith doing? I dont think you can "believe into salvation" then never do anything with God for the rest of your life.

people are baptized by water immersion here.

wansvic considers us unbaptized because we were not baptized in the name of Jesus only

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have never said a person receives the Spirit when they get water baptized. I know some people on here believe that to be true. I do not.

It is difficult to keep people apart, when they have similar ideas. Sorry.

What I have always contended is what the bible shows. Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin is a requirement.

Can you prove from the text that Cornelius didn't receive forgiveness of sins UNTIL Peter baptized him?

In FACT, Peter didn't order the baptism UNTIL he saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit in him, which clearly proves that Cornelius was SAVED and received forgiveness of sins BEFORE being water baptized.

And in addition, everyone must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They are two separate experiences.

"must"??? Sounds like a command. The Holy Spirit is received PASSIVELY when one believes. As Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 show.

This is clearly shown by the following records:

And in addition, everyone must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They are two separate experiences. This is clearly shown by the following records:
Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost first and were later water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38, 10:44-48)[/QUOTE]
Acts 2:38 occurred within months of Jesus' ascension. Not a bunch of years later.

Cornelius' account occurred later than Acts 2:38. Certainly not before.

Samaritans and the 12 Ephesus disciples obeyed water baptism in the name of Jesus first and afterward received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6)

You can't prove anything from Acts 8 and simon the sorcerer. There is NO details about either the townfolk who believed and were baptized or Simon himself.

Acts 19 occurred after Cornelius. Only shows there wasn't consistency in the very early church.

What is clear is that both Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 is the biblical pattern for everyone.

These scriptures point out the truth that both are required and demand no specific sequence.

Your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.

Through his (Jesus) name believers will receive remission of sin according to that scripture.

Since my quote shows what the verse SAYS, just rearranging a few words, you are demonstrating a very poor grasp of English.

The real issue here is your refusal to admit that "remission of sins" is based on "believing in Him". This is grade school simple.

 

[SophieT]

You can't teach unless you can be taught.

When you prove to be unteachable. your reputation as a teacher is destroyed.

from what I see from two of them (peldon and wansvic) they have no ability or desire to be taught.

this is true

I have changed my mind more than once when I was given sufficient understanding regarding something I believed that turned out to be wrong

this is how we all grow. we have examples in scripture that sometimes a person can hold a wrong understanding and receive correction

the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online

 

[Nehemiah6]

the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online

Very true. The real issue is this: Why do cultists hate simple Bible truths? Oneness Pentecostalism began in the early 20th century, and many cults began in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[Wansvic]

to me this would be a dead faith. (see James)

as I see it. they were not saved not because they did no work. but because they had no faith (did not believe)

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved.

 

[Wansvic]

people are baptized by water immersion here.

wansvic considers us unbaptized because we were not baptized in the name of Jesus only

Scripture confirms water baptism is to be in the name of Jesus. Examine the scriptures.

 

[Wansvic]

It is difficult to keep people apart, when they have similar ideas. Sorry.


Can you prove from the text that Cornelius didn't receive forgiveness of sins UNTIL Peter baptized him?

In FACT, Peter didn't order the baptism UNTIL he saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit in him, which clearly proves that Cornelius was SAVED and received forgiveness of sins BEFORE being water baptized.


"must"??? Sounds like a command. The Holy Spirit is received PASSIVELY when one believes. As Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 show.

This is clearly shown by the following records:

And in addition, everyone must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They are two separate experiences. This is clearly shown by the following records:
Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost first and were later water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38, 10:44-48)

Thank you for the apology.


I realize that the initial experience of the 120 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and Gentiles experiences did not occur around the same time. My intent was to point out the sequence of their receiving the Holy Ghost and afterward getting water baptized is what they had in common. Whereas, the Samaritans and the 12 Ephesus disciples got water baptized in the name of Jesus first, and afterward received the Holy Ghost. These records show that there is no significance in one experience happening before the other. What is necessary is that both occur. Keep in mind that truth is established by at least 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. The referenced scriptures meet this requirement. Some will receive the Holy Ghost before getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (2 confirming records), while others will get water baptized in the name of Jesus first and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. (2 confirming records)

I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to prove anything concerning the record in Acts 8. What the scripture does point out is the Samaritans believed Philip' message concerning the kingdom and the name of Jesus and were baptized. Verse 16 confirms the baptism was in the name of Jesus. Sometime later Peter and John traveled from Jerusalem to Samaria and assisted the group in receiving the Holy Ghost. The only thing we know for sure about Simon the sorcerer is that he got water baptized along with the others. Verse 21 would seem to indicate that he had not done it for the right reason.

The Apostle Paul's interaction with the group in Acts 19 happened well after the Gentile experience. And it is yet another example that getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is required. The group had submitted to John's water baptism. However, Paul informs them about their need to believe in Jesus and they get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Afterward Paul assists them in receiving the Holy Ghost. This record is a clear example that all individual's must obey the command first given on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

SophieT said:
the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online

Very true. The real issue is this: Why do cultists hate simple Bible truths? Oneness Pentecostalism began in the early 20th century, and many cults began in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Possibly Satan was getting more desperate or anxious for the end times. Or just preparing the way for it. 1 Tim 4:1

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you for the apology.

You're welcome.

I realize that the initial experience of the 120 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and Gentiles experiences did not occur around the same time. My intent was to point out the sequence of their receiving the Holy Ghost and afterward getting water baptized is what they had in common. Whereas, the Samaritans and the 12 Ephesus disciples got water baptized in the name of Jesus first, and afterward received the Holy Ghost. These records show that there is no significance in one experience happening before the other. What is necessary is that both occur. Keep in mind that truth is established by at least 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. The referenced scriptures meet this requirement. Some will receive the Holy Ghost before getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (2 confirming records), while others will get water baptized in the name of Jesus first and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. (2 confirming records)

My point is that by the time Paul wrote Galatians, somewhere between 49-55 AD, the clear pattern was to receive the Spirit by faith in Christ.

I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to prove anything concerning the record in Acts 8.

There is no mention of them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's all.

What the scripture does point out is the Samaritans believed Philip' message concerning the kingdom and the name of Jesus and were baptized. Verse 16 confirms the baptism was in the name of Jesus. Sometime later Peter and John traveled from Jerusalem to Samaria and assisted the group in receiving the Holy Ghost. The only thing we know for sure about Simon the sorcerer is that he got water baptized along with the others. Verse 21 would seem to indicate that he had not done it for the right reason.

You are free to doubt the veracity of Luke, but this is what he wrote about it:

Luke 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

He used the same words for both the residents and Simon.

If you want to think that Simon wasn't saved, that's your opinion. But the wording PROVES that he was.

 

[SophieT]

Scripture confirms water baptism is to be in the name of Jesus. Examine the scriptures.

perhaps read the Bible even when it does not agree with the Oneness doctrine that you follow

many people here have pointed them out to you, so you should be able to find them

 

[SophieT]

Very true. The real issue is this: Why do cultists hate simple Bible truths? Oneness Pentecostalism began in the early 20th century, and many cults began in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

must have been a run on phoney angels preaching 'another' gospel

making a bad joke there, but we see in scripture that there are deceiving spirits going about preaching lies and the devil himself disguises himself and comes as an angel of light...I am sure you know that

they have been around since the garden, either completely changing the truth or creating subtle shifts in the truth

like saying 'did God really say that?'

but I have to say that these Oneness folk just totally throw out what is plainly written and have created another gospel, another Jesus and another religion altogether

 

[SophieT]

Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved.

and speaking of another take on salvation, we see it again here

water baptism does not save you and telling people they are not baptized if baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and they must be re-baptized is a fairy tale

 

[peldom10]

No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.

We are past that point.. believing is first. No forgiveness without repentance and baptism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.

We are past that point.. believing is first.

No, we are NOT "past that point".

The entire point is that sins are forgiven on the basis of believing.

No forgiveness without repentance and baptism.

If your statement was correct, then Acts 10:43 is very misleading and WRONG.

Paul's answer to the jailer would also be misleading, because gettting saved MEANS having your sins forgiven.

And though Paul did baptize the jailer, there is no indication that it was for forgiveness.

The jailer was saved on the basis of "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ", and That ALONE.

So many verses refute your theory.

 

[Wansvic]

You're welcome.


My point is that by the time Paul wrote Galatians, somewhere between 49-55 AD, the clear pattern was to receive the Spirit by faith in Christ.


There is no mention of them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's all.


You are free to doubt the veracity of Luke, but this is what he wrote about it:

Luke 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

He used the same words for both the residents and Simon.

If you want to think that Simon wasn't saved, that's your opinion. But the wording PROVES that he was.

Thanks for pointing out those scripture verses in Luke 8 that state Simon did believe Philip's message and therefore submitted to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I can only conclude from your other comments that you do not agree that a person must also receive the Holy Ghost, as the group did in Acts 8:17, in order to be saved. If my conclusion is correct, please consider that the biblical record is consistent. The conversion experiences of all groups of humanity (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans) as well as individuals in the Acts 19 account, and the Apostle Paul himself (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16) included receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Lord Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

perhaps read the Bible even when it does not agree with the Oneness doctrine that you follow

many people here have pointed them out to you, so you should be able to find them

What is the name? The answer to that question will resolve the issue.

 

[Wansvic]

and speaking of another take on salvation, we see it again here

water baptism does not save you and telling people they are not baptized if baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and they must be re-baptized is a fairy tale

My comment was relative to what Jesus said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He did not say get baptized after you're saved.

My comment:
"Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved."