Saved by Water

[FreeGrace2]

I have seen the miracles of Jesus (with my own eyeballs) being done in people's lives.

And.....you again missed my point. Did you see Jesus in the flesh performing the miracles you mentioned? No, you did not. That was my point.

I even coughed up a tumor one time in the context of a holy laughter revival that was occurring at a church that my wife and I encountered on the way up to Oregon.

OOOKKKK, so people are having "holy laughter revivals"??

You are not showing the truth of the matter.

Then prove me wrong.

I have faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12); which faith you are attempting to undermine.

Again I will point out that I am NOT trying to undermining anyone's faith.

What I AM attempting to do is properly explain the verses you are misreading.

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have any idea what is being said here? If so, please exegete each verse.
Thanks.

Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 2:38-39.

You first.

Nope. I asked first. You answer first. That's how this works.

If you don't want to exegete, that's ok. But it will send a clear message.

 

[justbyfaith]

And.....you again missed my point. Did you see Jesus in the flesh performing the miracles you mentioned? No, you did not. That was my point.

So, in order for the promise of Acts 2:38-39 to be valid, one has to be physically there when Jesus did His miracles?

Do you have scripture for that?

Then prove me wrong.

You are the one who has made the claim so the burden of proof is on you.

Nope. I asked first. You answer first. That's how this works.

If you don't want to exegete, that's ok. But it will send a clear message.

I will wait for your exegesis; and then I will give my own exegesis; or we will not do this.

No clear message sent as you seem to think.

I simply prefer always to go second in challenges like this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, in order for the promise of Acts 2:38-39 to be valid, one has to be physically there when Jesus did His miracles?

Didn't you read the whole context?

Do you have scripture for that?

Read the context.

You are the one who has made the claim so the burden of proof is on you.

The proof is in the context.

I will wait for your exegesis; and then I will give my own exegesis; or we will not do this.

OK, so you've decided not to do it. That's what I expected.

No clear message sent as you seem to think.

Rather, a very clear message.

I simply prefer always to go second in challenges like this.

Doesn't matter what you prefer. I asked first, so you answer first.

It appears that you just don't want to answer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Didn't you read the whole context?


Read the context.


The proof is in the context.

Why don't you spell it out for me.

What in the context of Acts 2:38-39 limits the promise of the verses to those who saw Jesus' miracles?

Here is something in the context that says otherwise.

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

OK, so you've decided not to do it. That's what I expected.


Rather, a very clear message.


Doesn't matter what you prefer. I asked first, so you answer first.

It appears that you just don't want to answer.

I promise I will exegete the verses after I have seen your exegesis of them.

If you won't do that, it says about you the same thing that you want to say about me for that I refuse to exegete the verses until after I have seen your take on what they have to say.

Because I really think that if you take the time to properly exegete the verses, you will come to the same conclusion that I have:

rantismal regeneration.

(as rantism is the Hebrew term for "sprinkling" in Ezekiel 36:25).

And that is the short of my exegesis.

Do you want the long of it?

Then exegete the verses in front of me; and I will tell you whether you are correct or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why don't you spell it out for me.

What in the context of Acts 2:38-39 limits the promise of the verses to those who saw Jesus' miracles?

The crowd themselves. They were THERE. You weren't there. Nor was I.

Here is something in the context that says otherwise.

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I'm sure the children from this crowd were aware of what happened. The words "all that are afar off" is a reference to Gentiles.

Do you want the long of it?

Whatever you're able to do.

Then exegete the verses in front of me; and I will tell you whether you are correct or not.

No you won't. You'll probably disagree but that doesn't mean you are correct, on that basis.

Ezek 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

The context for these 3 verses begins at v.16 and is about the assurance of Israel's restoration. v.26 is a clear description of the new birth, and the fact that believers are "new creatures", so we know these verses are about a FUTURE time, not something that is just about to occur.

v.27 proves this with the mention of God putting His Spirit in them. Only in the NT, after Jesus' ascension is the Holy Spirit given to EVERY believer. We know this because King David asked God to NOT take the Holy Spirit from him after his grievous sin of rape and murder.

Psa 51:11.

So if v.27 applies across the board in the OT, then David's prayer was stupid and irrelevant to reality.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm sure the children from this crowd were aware of what happened. The words "all that are afar off" is a reference to Gentiles.

It is a reference to people in the far future from that instance.

 

[justbyfaith]

The crowd themselves. They were THERE. You weren't there. Nor was I.


I'm sure the children from this crowd were aware of what happened. The words "all that are afar off" is a reference to Gentiles.


Whatever you're able to do.


No you won't. You'll probably disagree but that doesn't mean you are correct, on that basis.

Ezek 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

The context for these 3 verses begins at v.16 and is about the assurance of Israel's restoration. v.26 is a clear description of the new birth, and the fact that believers are "new creatures", so we know these verses are about a FUTURE time, not something that is just about to occur.

v.27 proves this with the mention of God putting His Spirit in them. Only in the NT, after Jesus' ascension is the Holy Spirit given to EVERY believer. We know this because King David asked God to NOT take the Holy Spirit from him after his grievous sin of rape and murder.

Psa 51:11.

So if v.27 applies across the board in the OT, then David's prayer was stupid and irrelevant to reality.

Yes, a future time to when Ezekiel gave the prophecy, I will not disagree with that.

What is your take on the interpretation that a man will receive a new heart and a new spirit as the result of having clean water sprinkled upon him?

For that seems to me to be the plain meaning of the passage.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, a future time to when Ezekiel gave the prophecy, I will not disagree with that.

What is your take on the interpretation that a man will receive a new heart and a new spirit as the result of having clean water sprinkled upon him?

For that seems to me to be the plain meaning of the passage.

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

Who is speaking here?

 

[justbyfaith]

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

Who is speaking here?

The Lord.

So, you think that He is promising to cleanse them from their filthiness and their idols with a little bit of rain?

Or, is He saying that when a minister filled with the Holy Spirit sprinkles clean water on a person, that He is in effect sprinkling clean water on them? Since He is indwelling the person performing the rantism?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

Who is speaking here?

The Lord.

So, you think that He is promising to cleanse them from their filthiness and their idols with a little bit of rain?

No. It seemed you quoted this verse to support water baptism by the words "I will sprinkle clean water on you".

So my question was about WHO does this sprinkling of clean water. Did the Lord baptize you in a tank of water? No. So that isn't what the verse suggests or even supports.

Or, is He saying that when a minister filled with the Holy Spirit sprinkles clean water on a person, that He is in effect sprinkling clean water on them?

The verse is clear. The Lord says "I will sprinkle". So if a minister sprinkles water, that isn't what the verse is saying at all.

Since He is indwelling the person performing the rantism?

What in the world is "rantism? I know of people who rant and rant. But what is rantism?

 

[justbyfaith]

The verse is clear. The Lord says "I will sprinkle". So if a minister sprinkles water, that isn't what the verse is saying at all.

If the minister is filled with the Holy Ghost (his spirit is one spirit is one spirit with the Holy Ghost, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20), then when the minister sprinkles clean water on the individual, it is in effect Jehovah (the Holy Ghost) who is doing the sprinkling.

How else do you suggest this sprinkling takes place?

I suppose that we all need to pray for rain and then hope that it falls on us so that we can receive a new heart and a new spirit; in order that He might cause us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments.

What in the world is "rantism? I know of people who rant and rant. But what is rantism?

rantizo is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for sprinkling in Ezekiel 36:25. I thought that I had already mentioned that in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The verse is clear. The Lord says "I will sprinkle". So if a minister sprinkles water, that isn't what the verse is saying at all.

If the minister is filled with the Holy Ghost (his spirit is one spirit is one spirit with the Holy Ghost, 1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20), then when the minister sprinkles clean water on the individual, it is in effect Jehovah (the Holy Ghost) who is doing the sprinkling.

No, you are just twisting the verse.

It should be obvious by what the Lord SAID in that verse that He was referring to the cleansing act of SALVATION itself, certainly not being sprinkled by literal water.

How else do you suggest this sprinkling takes place?

The Lord wasn't speaking literally.

rantizo is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for sprinkling in Ezekiel 36:25. I thought that I had already mentioned that in this thread.

Thanks. You may have, but I don't read all the posts to others.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, you are just twisting the verse.

It should be obvious by what the Lord SAID in that verse that He was referring to the cleansing act of SALVATION itself, certainly not being sprinkled by literal water.

The Lord wasn't speaking literally.

I am twisting the verse by taking it literally?

I think that you are twisting it by not taking it literally.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I suppose we will be twisting Scripture if we don't literally baptize each other with fire.

Matthew 3:11 CSB - "I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to remove his sandals. He himself will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

No mention of water below, but just the "Right Hand" of Salvation.

Psalm 98:1 ESV - "Oh sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things! His right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Purified souls . . . no water is mentioned in chapter 1 (at all). That's odd!

1 Peter 1:22 WEB - "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently . . ."

 

[justbyfaith]

I suppose we will be twisting Scripture if we don't literally baptize each other with fire.

Matthew 3:11 CSB - "I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I. I am not worthy to remove his sandals. He himself will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

I suppose that the only way that God can "sprinkle clean water on you" is if you are outside when it rains.

I'm sure you've heard the testimonies...

"It rained on me and all of a sudden I was a new person"...

 

[justbyfaith]

No mention of water below, but just the "Right Hand" of Salvation.

Psalm 98:1 ESV - "Oh sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things! His right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him."

Purified souls . . . no water is mentioned in chapter 1 (at all). That's odd!

1 Peter 1:22 WEB - "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently . . ."

Water is mentioned in chapter 3.

Faith isn't mentioned in chapter 3....so, faith isn't an element to salvation because it isn't mentioned in every chapter of the Bible?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Perhaps the Lord should have said that a man's phallus is to be "sprinkled" with water.

Genesis 17:7, 11 NLT - 7 "I will confirm my covenant with you and your descendants after you, from generation to generation. This is the everlasting covenant: I will always be your God and the God of your descendants after you." ... 11 "You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you."

And of course, Genesis 17 is in reference to Spiritual Circumcision, symbolized in physical circumcision.

No . . . no water.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

No water mentioned below . . . at all. How curious.

Deuteronomy 10:16 DBY - "Circumcise then the foreskin of your heart, and stiffen your neck no more."