Remission of sin was not available until after Jesus' resurrection and the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.
Saved by Water
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You keep asking the same questions. You get good solid answers. Yet, you go on and on with your nonsense. I wish for you, this was not the case but only the Spirit of God can shine light into darkness.
To answer your question again - only after a person has been regenerated.
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
God must give to a person "hearing Ears" in order to hear, along with a changed disposition of heart.
Mat 13:14 And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.
This is the problem of fallen man. A heart of stone, blind and deft. This is the solution:
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
This is the "regenerative" work of the Spirit, Christ talked about, in John 3:1-10. Then the person will be resolved of the problem in Mat. 13:15.
Mat 19:25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 9:6, says you are teaching a lie.
Let me show you what Jesus says, so that you can argue with Him.
No doubt you will.
Jesus Said"""But I want YOU to know that the Son of Man (Jesus) has authority on earth to FORGIVE SINS, So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
""""But so that YOU MAY KNOW = that the Son of Man (Jesus) has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”"""""
Notice that there is no Cross yet?
Take a good look.
Respectfully, I don't see what Peter stated in Acts 2:38 as lining up with your understanding. He said everyone was to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin.
You said when we believe in Jesus our sins are forgiven. But, Jesus said many believers will call him Lord on the last day, yet He will say I never knew you. (Matt. 7:23) His statement proves there is more required than believing in Him. He actually called those believers workers of iniquity. Jesus said only those who do the will of the Father will be accepted. The next verses state the wise build upon a proper foundation. The writer of Hebrews tells us what the foundation consists of, and states that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.
Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Why are you re-inventing verses?
That verse your quoted does not say that many BELIEVERS, will call on Jesus..
So, you are either just trying to twist the bible to fit your lie, or you just can't read......or what is probably happening is that you dont use a bible, you just use a heretic's commentary to teach this garbage.
Listen carefully...........Here is the verse........
Notice that there are no BELIEVERS in the VERSE, only in your false teaching as found in your WATER CULT.
New International Version
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
New Living Translation
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
English Standard Version
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Berean Study Bible
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Berean Literal Bible
Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
King James Bible
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
New King James Version
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
New American Standard Bible
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
NASB 1995
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
NASB 1977
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
My comment pertained to when one's sins are remitted after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
See a part of my previous post #134 to Justified: Yes, Jesus did forgive sins and perform miracles as evidence He was the Son of God. However, AFTER Jesus' death, burial and resurrection man was commanded to obey specific instructions in order for their sins to be remitted. I don't know if you are aware of it, but Jesus said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name in all nations and would BEGIN in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) The need for believers to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus FOR the remission of sin was what Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. This event was what Jesus had prophesied. And since Jesus said the message would be preached in all nations it continues today. The Lord Jesus said it and He is the final authority.
That is what you are saying now........
But what you said before is this.......
""""""Remission of sin was not available until after Jesus' resurrection and the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost"""""
So, what you previously said was that remission of sin was not available until Pentecost".
Then i showed you that Christ forgave sin before Pentecost., according to Christ's words.
Now you are deflecting your original statement, as you will always do, to try to hide what you teach that is false and deceptive.
This behavior doesn't work when you deal with me.
Believe it.
You are right in pointing out I should have not included "believers" in my reference to the scripture. But to think that those who called Jesus, Lord. And cast out demons and prophesied in His name did not believe in Jesus is farfetched.
Think about what the Greek words actually mean. Does baptizo mean to immerse in water or simply to immerse. Thayer’s lexicon says that baptizo is used with eis to indicate the medium into which immersion occurs. ”In the name“ is epi to onomati. Epi means on not in. Onomati means a name, authority or cause. So you have a case where the medium into which immersion occurs is given in the text itself. Immersion into remission of sins on the authority of Jesus Christ.
Jesus didn’t call them believers.
““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.7.21-23.ESV
Unfortunately people sometimes say things they don’t believe.
I see that I must spell things out for you. Both of my previous statements convey the same thing.
NOTE: The message of required obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin began after the Holy Ghost was given on the Day of Pentecost which was after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
Hopefully that clarifies my position. And please stop accusing me of lying and deceit.
My point was in answer to your statement that sins are remitted when we believe in Jesus. Clearly many believed in Jesus but were not going to be given entrance into heaven. (Matt. 7)
Here is the verse....."depart from me i never knew you".
Now, what were these doing? They were casting out devils and doing work's in "jesus's name".
And God, who is Christ said.......>"i dont know you"......."i never knew you". = "Depart".
Why?
Why didn't Christ "know", these who were doing works, keeping commandments, water baptized, church members..... same as you find in Mark 16, yet, they are not "known", by Jesus?
So, here you have people doing Christian works, in Jesus's name, and they go to HELL after they die.
Why?
"i never KNEW you".......>Jesus said.
So, see that word "knew'?.........that is the context.. and the reason they were told to "Depart".
This word, "Knew' or "to know"..... in the NT, is very specific to 2 situations.............>"born again", , and one other is something im going to explain.
The NT term for becoming ONE with your wife..... or if you are a woman, becoming ONE with your husband or , to fornicate, you become ONE, with the person.....This is 2 becoming """ONE Flesh.""""
See that? That is SEXUAL UNION......that is 2 becoming JOINED as : "one flesh" based on sexual union.
What is the bible term for having intimacy like this? The term is ......>"to KNOW"> them.
Notice in Genesis 19:5, before God burned these Sodomites.....They said to Lot......."let them come out that we might KNOW them".
See that? That means....>"let those angels come out that we might fornicate with them".
End result? God burned this entire city of sexual perverts. (Homosexuals and similar).
Now, When Jesus says, He does not "Know" you, this means God has not made you Christ's "Bride" or His "body of Christ".
See, when Jesus KNOWS you......you are become JOINED to Him, Spiritually, as "in Christ".......born again., and "Christ IN YOU, the hope of Glory". (Glory is heaven).
Jesus lives IN YOU if you are born again.......and that is how He "Knows' you, or not.
Readers.......You know that Jesus is coming back for His "BRIDE"........and a "bride" is already married to her husband.
She's not waiting......So, Jesus is coming back for the "body of Christ", His BRIDE.....that He "LIVES IN" already.......and that is to "KNOW". His Bride.
So, when Christ tells people to """""depart, because i never you...knew you""""...Its because He does not live IN THEM< ..because they are not born again, IN Christ, as "ONE with God".
Respectfully, that passage doesn’t say that at all. Yes, on that day, as the passage says, they realize who he is. At that point it was too late.
My main point was that people say all anyone has to do to have their sins remitted is believe in the gospel . Not according to the presented scripture. And yes, I am aware of the concept you present. The following is an OP that gives further detail natural and spiritual marriage parallels consistent with what you've posted.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/natural-and-spiritual-marriage-parallels.182003/
Ither God saves you by the blood of Jesus, and keeps you saved by the blood of Jesus, or you save yourself by self effort, as you believe.
One of you is wrong.
Let me show you how you can tell if you are NOT actually saved, or if you are, but have "fallen from Grace".
You will believe this......>"i can lose my salvation".
Of course they believed in Jesus before that day. Their comment references things they had done previously. They thought He was their Lord. (which of course he wasn't) Where did the idea to cast out demons come from if not from teachings of what Jesus did in the word? Casting out demons requires the use of His name as noted in scripture. They thought they prophesied. Again, a concept established in the word of God. The record shows they thought they were saved when in fact they were not.
Welcome to the thousands who died today who are in hell right now, and yet they were water baptized.
See the Problem yet?
Water baptism in Jesus' name is just one part of God's mandate to the NT believer. The word instructs the believer to repent and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And also requires a believer to be indwelt with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)
God has always commanded obedience. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Consider Noah and his family, 8 people out of the entire earth's population, were the only ones saved. Why? They obeyed God's instructions while others surely mocked and ridiculed them for believing God's message that did not make sense to them.
Sad as it is, the majority of people will be condemned to hell. The word says that broad is the way of destruction while straight is gate and narrow is the way that leads unto life and few will find it. (Matt. 7:13-14) Interesting that this is stated just before Jesus says only those who do the Father's will will enter heaven and tells people He never knew them. Matt 7:21-23
Your not answering the question are you. Lets try once again, Who forgives sin, man or God? It should not be that hard a question for you to answer.
Even if a man could go back into his mother's womb and be born again, would it make a difference? Probably not since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
So what did Jesus mean, then, by "you must be born of water and Spirit?"
In John 4:13-14, Jesus said:
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
The water that Jesus was referencing in relation to being born of "water and Spirit" was not literal water in my opinion. Jesus is referring to spiritual water that sustains the born again spirit of those who have faith in Jesus.
This born again process of "water and Spirit" is not something the individual will have control over. It will be solely by the will of God:
John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:8
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
This is not about water baptism.