Saved by faith alone?

[studier]

What ChristRoseFromTheDead is doing is subtly shifting categories — mixing up the root of salvation with its fruit. It’s a common theological sleight of hand that sounds pious, but it quietly redefines grace.

1. He’s confusing cause and effect

My statement — “genuine faith always produces obedience — not as a condition for salvation, but as the natural outcome of it” — is exactly what Scripture teaches (Ephesians 2:8–10, James 2:17).
Faith saves; obedience follows.

But his reply turns that upside down. By saying obedience is a condition for salvation, he’s implying that salvation is earned or kept by performance — not received by grace through faith.

That’s the same error Paul confronted in Galatia (Galatians 3:2–3).

2. He’s redefining “salvation” in a way that smuggles in works

He says, “Unless you consider salvation to be something other than being eternally in God’s presence.”
That’s a clue: he’s equating final glorification (entering the Kingdom) with the entire process of salvation, and then inserting obedience as a requirement to reach it.

But biblically, salvation has three tenses:

1. Justification — past: saved from sin’s penalty (Romans 5:1).
2. Sanctification — present: being saved from sin’s power (Philippians 2:12–13).
3. Glorification — future: will be saved from sin’s presence (Romans 8:30).

Obedience belongs to sanctification — the evidence of new life, not the condition for receiving it.

3. He’s appealing to Jesus’ “obedience” texts without context

When Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord…” (Matthew 7:21), He was exposing false professors — people claiming faith but bearing no fruit.
He wasn’t teaching that obedience earns heaven, but that disobedience reveals unbelief.

The same principle appears in John 14:15 —

“If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”​

Love comes first, obedience flows from it.​

4. Bottom line
He’s not trying to “understand” your point — he’s testing whether you’ll retreat from grace.
His phrasing is designed to corner you into admitting obedience is part of the cause of salvation rather than the proof of it.

In short: ChristRoseFromTheDead is attempting to shift the discussion from faith’s fruit to faith’s foundation — a clever but dangerous move that always leads toward works-based salvation.

Grace and Peace

The faith-alone soteriology presented here confuses root and fruit. Obedience is an integral part of biblical pistis, not merely its result. Starting from this mistaken premise leads to a false conclusion - the generally worded principle of garbage in, garbage out.

cc: @ChristRoseFromTheDead

 

[PaulThomson]

faith plus works = works

do not claim you do not teach we are saved by works. whgen you claim we are saved by works, even if you add faith to the question. it is still by works

It seems that in all other cases of a dead thing, the thing is real and dead -
A dead cat is a real cat but now not alive. We do not say it is not a real cat because it is not a live cat.
A dead circuit is a real circuit, but now not live. We do not say it is not a real circuit because it is not a live circuit.
A dead poet is a real poet but is now not alive. We do not say he is not a real poet because he is not a live.poet.

But "a dead faith", apparently, according to some, is not a real faith because it is not a live faith? That is an example of theologians using the logical fallacy of special pleading.

 

[Winslow89]

Does the phrase, "saved by faith" equivalent to the term, "saved by faith alone"?

James 2:24

 

[Charlesiii]

So faith compels us to act, and without our faith cooperating with our action, faith is essentially meaningless. Which raises the question, what would have been Abraham's fate if he had not obeyed God and merely trusted in his imputed righteousness, ie faith alone?

What was Moses' fate when he neglected circumcision? God used a woman and foreigner - Moses' wife - to do it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What was Moses' fate when he neglected circumcision? God used a woman and foreigner - Moses' wife - to do it.

The angel was getting ready to kill him. or his uncircumcised son. Not clear from the text. I sense a deep truth I'm missing in this episode

 

[Charlesiii]

The angel was getting ready to kill him. or his uncircumcised son. Not clear from the text. I sense a deep truth I'm missing in this episode

Basically, God used Zipporah to fulfill what Moses' failed to do, saving Moses' life - although possibly humiliating Moses. My point though, was that disobedience will be punished (God disciplines His sons), but salvation is not through obedience - it is by grace through faith.

 

[GWH]

James 2:24

Yes, but not by works alone either, so we should interpret this verse to mean that saving faith produces good/godly works or is manifested by loving/godly fruit (2Tim. 3:12, 2Pet. 3:11, Gal. 5:22-23, Matt. 3:8, 7:16-20, John 15:2&16).

 

[HeIsHere]

The faith-alone soteriology presented here confuses root and fruit. Obedience is an integral part of biblical pistis, not merely its result. Starting from this mistaken premise leads to a false conclusion - the generally worded principle of garbage in, garbage out.

Faith Alone as opposed to Works + Faith does not conflate the declaration of justified by God with the walk of the Christian.

Nor does it assert that justification is provable by works, Faith Alone agrees with scripture that works should follow as a testimony/witness of being declared justified by God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Basically, God used Zipporah to fulfill what Moses' failed to do, saving Moses' life - although possibly humiliating Moses. My point though, was that disobedience will be punished (God disciplines His sons), but salvation is not through obedience - it is by grace through faith.

Without obedience to the spirit of God no man will live. That's just a basic fact.

 

[studier]

Faith Alone as opposed to Works + Faith does not conflate the declaration of justified by God with the walk of the Christian.

Nor does it assert that justification is provable by works, Faith Alone agrees with scripture that works should follow as a testimony/witness of being declared justified by God.

Scripture presents obedience, love, and other commanded expressions as intrinsic to pistis - not optional outcomes. Justification isn’t declared apart from relational allegiance, because pistis itself obeys. James calls belief without obedience dead, even applying it to demons. In my view, Faith-Alone creates a dead faith and then tries to make it justify.

 

[GWH]

Scripture presents obedience, love, and other commanded expressions as intrinsic to pistis - not optional outcomes. Justification isn’t declared apart from relational allegiance, because pistis itself obeys. James calls belief without obedience dead, even applying it to demons. In my view, Faith-Alone creates a dead faith and then tries to make it justify.

Yes, I wonder whether Luther's sola fide meant to teach faith only or to divorce saving faith from good/loving works?

 

[HeIsHere]

Scripture presents obedience, love, and other commanded expressions as intrinsic to pistis - not optional outcomes. Justification isn’t declared apart from relational allegiance, because pistis itself obeys. James calls belief without obedience dead, even applying it to demons. In my view, Faith-Alone creates a dead faith and then tries to make it justify.

A salvation is a completed whole gift, one either accepts it and believes it, or one does not.

I think scripture is quite clear on salvation being a complete gift ... no quid pro quo.

Dead faith is faith that is not being used/energized.

And you should also know James was answering questions/comments made by an interlocuter, the entire letter must be understood with that in mind.

Sadly you are adding works to salvation and nullify the work of the cross.

 

[HeIsHere]

Basically, God used Zipporah to fulfill what Moses' failed to do, saving Moses' life - although possibly humiliating Moses. My point though, was that disobedience will be punished (God disciplines His sons), but salvation is not through obedience - it is by grace through faith.

Amen and Amen!!

Salvation is a completed and finished gift, nothing to add to it.

 

[GWH]

A salvation is a completed whole gift, one either accepts it and believes it, or one does not.

I think scripture is quite clear on salvation being a complete gift ... no quid pro quo.

Dead faith is faith that is not being used/energized.

And you should also know James was answering questions/comments made by an interlocuter, the entire letter must be understood with that in mind.

Sadly you are adding works to salvation and nullify the work of the cross.

Salvation is a gift, but there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.

 

[studier]

Yes, I wonder whether Luther's sola fide meant to teach faith only or to divorce saving faith from good/loving works?

Good question. IMO Luther’s sola fide was meant to oppose Roman Catholic merit-based works - not to divorce saving faith from obedience and love and other facets included in it. But over time, the phrase has been taken to an extreme, where faith is stripped of biblical definition and its commanded expressions are sidelined. That’s not how Scripture defines pistis.

 

[HeIsHere]

Salvation is a gift, but there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace.

Yes I can agree to this, and one is, called to/exhorted to, draw from and lean into God's grace/love.
It is not coercive, agree?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faith-alone means justification-alone because justification is by faith alone. However, no person is saved by justification alone.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Saved out of doesn't mean saved into. All of Israel was saved out of Egypt, but many of them weren't saved into the promised land.

 

[Magenta]

Yes I can agree to this, and one is, called to/exhorted to, draw from and lean into God's grace/love.
It is not coercive, agree?

Oh, so now you are agreeing to one being called? It is free willers who disgracefully equate being enabled with being forced.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Lamar]

Oh, so now you are agreeing to one being called? It is free willers who disgracefully equate being enabled with being forced.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

Is the person who is "enabled" free to reject this offer?