Saved by faith alone?

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LightBearer316 said:
Brother, not quite — faith isn’t made real by performance; it’s revealed as real by endurance.

Just as fire doesn’t create gold but proves its purity, trials don’t create saving faith — they expose whether faith is genuine. Peter’s analogy makes this clear:
“The trial of your faith… though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory.” (1 Peter 1:7)
The fire didn’t make the gold gold — it showed what was already there.

Faith is “the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8), rooted in Christ’s finished work, not in our performance. Yet living faith naturally shows itself in trust and obedience, even under pressure — whereas empty profession collapses when tested (Matthew 13:20-21).

So the point isn’t that faith becomes real through trials, but that trials reveal what kind of faith we already have — living or lifeless.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be proven genuine, not by our strength, but by the steadfast grace of the One who sustains it.
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And those who fail were never truly saved then correct according to this line of reasoning?

I am just wondering why if James was concerned about an empty profession of faith amongst the Jews to whom he was writing, who he considered to be brothers in Christ, why he did not take the time to share the Good News with them. :unsure:

I am thinking an empty profession of faith was not in view at all.
 
Magenta said:
Miss the point much? Not stealing does not automatically mean someone is walking in/by the Spirit.

Plus I did not say the law was evil. Why do you even introduce such concepts?
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If a person refrains from stealing due to conscience towards God then, yes, it is most definitely walking according to the spirit.
 
LightBearer316 said:
In other words, genuine faith always produces obedience — not as a condition for salvation, but as the natural outcome of it.
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Since Jesus said on several occasions that those who don't do his will won't enter the kingdom of God, obedience does appear to be a condition for salvation, unless you consider salvation to be something other than being eternally in God's presence.
 
Magenta said:
People not stealing because it is against societal laws does not automatically equate to people walking in the Spirit.

How is that so difficult to grasp???
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I didn't say with a conscience towards society; I said with a conscience towards God. Walking according to God's word is walking according to the spirit, which is walking in the spirit.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I didn't say with a conscience towards society; I said with a conscience towards God. Walking according to God's word is walking according to the spirit, which is walking in the spirit.
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Your inability to follow a conversation leaves much to be desired. Not breaking the law does not automatically equate to walking in or by the Spirit has been my position all along with you and now you act like you have no idea that is what I have been saying all along? Jeepers.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Since Jesus said on several occasions that those who don't do his will won't enter the kingdom of God, obedience does appear to be a condition for salvation, unless you consider salvation to be something other than being eternally in God's presence.
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What ChristRoseFromTheDead is doing is subtly shifting categories — mixing up the root of salvation with its fruit. It’s a common theological sleight of hand that sounds pious, but it quietly redefines grace.

1. He’s confusing cause and effect

My statement — “genuine faith always produces obedience — not as a condition for salvation, but as the natural outcome of it” — is exactly what Scripture teaches (Ephesians 2:8–10, James 2:17).
Faith saves; obedience follows.

But his reply turns that upside down. By saying obedience is a condition for salvation, he’s implying that salvation is earned or kept by performance — not received by grace through faith.

That’s the same error Paul confronted in Galatia (Galatians 3:2–3).

2. He’s redefining “salvation” in a way that smuggles in works

He says, “Unless you consider salvation to be something other than being eternally in God’s presence.”
That’s a clue: he’s equating final glorification (entering the Kingdom) with the entire process of salvation, and then inserting obedience as a requirement to reach it.

But biblically, salvation has three tenses:
  1. Justification — past: saved from sin’s penalty (Romans 5:1).
  2. Sanctification — present: being saved from sin’s power (Philippians 2:12–13).
  3. Glorification — future: will be saved from sin’s presence (Romans 8:30).
Obedience belongs to sanctification — the evidence of new life, not the condition for receiving it.

3. He’s appealing to Jesus’ “obedience” texts without context

When Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord…” (Matthew 7:21), He was exposing false professors — people claiming faith but bearing no fruit.
He wasn’t teaching that obedience earns heaven, but that disobedience reveals unbelief.

The same principle appears in John 14:15 —
“If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”​
Love comes first, obedience flows from it.​

4. Bottom line
He’s not trying to “understand” your point — he’s testing whether you’ll retreat from grace.
His phrasing is designed to corner you into admitting obedience is part of the cause of salvation rather than the proof of it.

In short: ChristRoseFromTheDead is attempting to shift the discussion from faith’s fruit to faith’s foundation — a clever but dangerous move that always leads toward works-based salvation.

Grace and Peace
 
Magenta said:
Your inability to follow a conversation leaves much to be desired. Not breaking the law does not automatically equate to walking in or by the Spirit has been my position all along with you and now you act like you have no idea that is what I have been saying all along? Jeepers.
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You make a distinction between walking in the spirit and walking according to the spirit, which I don't. Walking according to the spirit is obeying the word of God. You apparently only see it as something that is felt.
 
LightBearer316 said:
Brother, not quite — faith isn’t made real by performance; it’s revealed as real by endurance.

Just as fire doesn’t create gold but proves its purity, trials don’t create saving faith — they expose whether faith is genuine. Peter’s analogy makes this clear:
“The trial of your faith… though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory.” (1 Peter 1:7)
The fire didn’t make the gold gold — it showed what was already there.

Faith is “the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8), rooted in Christ’s finished work, not in our performance. Yet living faith naturally shows itself in trust and obedience, even under pressure — whereas empty profession collapses when tested (Matthew 13:20-21).

So the point isn’t that faith becomes real through trials, but that trials reveal what kind of faith we already have — living or lifeless.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be proven genuine, not by our strength, but by the steadfast grace of the One who sustains it.
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Spiritual salvation is correctly understood to be a gift with no strings attached, there is no "quid pro quo."
It is a gift, however, there are consequences for not living out the gift that has been received.

And the gendered grammar of Koine Greek seen in Ephesians 2:8 makes highly debatable that Paul was stating that saving faith is a gift..... salvation is the gift received through faith.
Faith is the instrument, it is not gifted, it is the condition.
 
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I agree with this mostly, but I have had experiences in which I had to, of my own will, not do something because I knew the word says it's sin. I didn't feel like I was getting any help from God, so I took matters into my own hands. Am I righteous for doing that? No. Did I sin? No. So I worked righteousness from my own will and effort because the word, which came from the spirit, instructed me to act that way, or rather, to not act that way. My conscience is clean and God didn't have anything to do with it other than giving me a heart to follow him and instructing me through his word.
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You are correct: It is impossible to be righteous apart from God/Christ, although it is possible to masquerade as righteous (2Cor. 11:14),
but such pretense probably is sinful.

Not sure why you said that you worked righteousness from your own will, when it was because God's Word/Spirit taught you.
Since when is cooperating with God working righteousness from your own will? That is exactly what God wants us to do!
 
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