Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

Abraham believed God, and righteousness was imputed to him for his faith. Faith-aloners seem to be saying that imputation of righteousness by itself saves a person

And [Abram] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6​

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Years later Abraham obeyed God's command of circumcision

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10​

And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. Genesis 17:24​

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And after that he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac on the altar.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Genesis 22:12​

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: Genesis 22:16​

Abraham's obeying what God said were the proof that he was persuaded by and trusted God's words, and through his obedience his faith was perfected. According to James, without this proof his faith would have been dead, empty, vain.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith was a fellower worker with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:20-23​

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So faith compels us to act, and without our faith cooperating with our action, faith is essentially meaningless. Which raises the question, what would have been Abraham's fate if he had not obeyed God and merely trusted in his imputed righteousness, ie faith alone?

So, you do teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

what would have been Abraham's fate if he had not obeyed God and merely trusted in his imputed righteousness, ie faith alone

If Abraham would have refused to obey God and offer up Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

 

[mailmandan]

Sanctification is work. Without ongoing sanctification there is no salvation. It sounds like you're confusing salvation with justification alone

So, you teach "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

The moment we are saved and justified we are also sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faith alone really means justification alone. And it's really not faith in Jesus alone, it's faith in imputed righteousness alone, because if a person really believes Jesus is lord, they will do what he commands. Saying that the only thing Jesus commands is to believe in imputed righteousness is ridiculous. Imputed righteousness without obeying God is worthless.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. Luke 6:46-49​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If Abraham would have refused to obey God and offer up Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

If Abraham hadn't obeyed God's command to be circumcised God would have cut him off

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14​

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone really means justification alone. And it's really not faith in Jesus alone, it's faith in imputed righteousness alone, because if a person really believes Jesus is lord, they will do what he commands. Saying that the only thing Jesus commands is to believe in imputed righteousness is ridiculous. Imputed righteousness without obeying God is worthless.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. Luke 6:46-49​

Faith alone means we are trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in Jesus Christ + works. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Nobody is saying that after we have been saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone that we are to remain in disobedience to Jesus. The Bible shows us otherwise. (1 John 3:7-10) Those who have received imputed righteousness and are saved have become new creations in Christ Jesus. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed. Praise God!

In Luke chapter 6, Jesus is exposing make believers/hypocrites and from the beginning of chapter 6, Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees, which is a common theme from Jesus. In Luke 6:43-45, we read - “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. We see this contrast throughout scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

If Abraham hadn't obeyed God's command to be circumcised God would have cut him off

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14​

Yet that was not the case. Romans 4:9 - Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nobody is saying that after we have been saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone that we are to remain in disobedience to Jesus. The Bible shows us otherwise.

Obeying Jesus is doing what he says. Doing is work.

 

[mailmandan]

Obeying Jesus is doing what he says. Doing is work.

Obeying Jesus/doing what He says AFTER we have been saved through faith is WORKS. Are we saved through faith or by works?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Obeying Jesus/doing what He says AFTER we have been saved through faith is WORKS. Are we saved through faith or by works?

We're saved by Jesus. He will say to those who don't obey him "Depart from me you workers of iniquity"

 

[mailmandan]

We're saved by Jesus. He will say to those who don't obey him "Depart from me you workers of iniquity"

Jesus is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 3:24-26) Those who don't obey Him are those who don't truly believe in Him unto salvation. (Matthew 7:21-23) For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:40) These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Sound familiar? Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved. In context Jesus is discussing false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how much so-called obedience that one sets out to conjure up from an unregenerate heart in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in make believers, but He sees all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It's becoming clear that faith alone means justification alone, which is really just a neo-gnostic twist to the gnostic belief that the knowledge (gnosis) of one's divine nature is what saved a person, and whatever a person did after receiving gnosis was irrelevant to salvation. The only condition for salvation was to maintain an awareness of this gnosis.

Justification alone twists that to mean faith in justification is what saves a person, and whatever a person does after receiving justification is irrelevant to salvation. The only condition for salvation is to maintain a belief in this knowledge, ie, gnosis.

 

[mailmandan]

It's becoming clear that faith alone means justification alone, which is really just a neo-gnostic twist to the gnostic belief that the knowledge (gnosis) of one's divine nature is what saved a person, and whatever a person did after receiving gnosis was irrelevant to salvation. The only condition for salvation was to maintain an awareness of this gnosis.

Justification alone twists that to mean faith in justification is what saves a person, and whatever a person does after receiving justification is irrelevant to salvation. The only condition for salvation is to maintain a belief in this knowledge, ie, gnosis.

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Hence, FAITH (rightly understood in Jesus Christ) ALONE.

Nothing gnostic about that.

 

[GWH]

repenting faith + sanctifying/persevering faith = Romans 1:17
horse > cart

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Hence, FAITH (rightly understood in Jesus Christ) ALONE.

Nothing gnostic about that.

Faith alone is what justifies us. Obedience to his spirit is what saves us.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit put to death the practices of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14​

 

[studier]

I once heard a Roman Catholic also say they affirm that salvation is by grace through faith, not works, but then after we discussed it further, what that Roman Catholic actually believed was that we are saved by grace through faith "infused" with works (good works and just not works of the law) and then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation, which is not what we read in Ephesians 2:8,9.

Here is what that Roman Catholic said to me: We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

Well, if you are not satisfied with Hebrews 11:1 or with the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, then I probably cannot convince you any further. Something tells me that you are determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works, similar to what that Roman Catholic did.

In distancing yourself from your former [Catholic] roots (which I haven't shared but have studied), you’ve found an alternative system that has stripped pistis of its biblical substance in reaction to a system that overloaded it. But Scripture does define pistis (in much more depth and detail than Strong's) - and Hebrews is one of the richest places to see it. It’s deep, and most English translations miss the weight of what’s being said. What Hebrews reveals about pistis dismantles the reductionism of the faith-alone system, which has negated and mislabeled much of Scripture’s instruction as ‘works.’

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone is what justifies us. Obedience to his spirit is what saves us.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit put to death the practices of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14​

That is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. In regard to walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh in Romans 8, Paul sets up a CONTRAST between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/false brethren) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. See the contrast?

Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit. If a person’s intent is to live according to the flesh, it’s an indication that he is not saved. Yet if a person, by the Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the body, it's an indication he is saved.

Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

 

[studier]

Nobody is saying belief alone in that sense. "I believe but I never repented" is an oxymoron. Those who believe and are saved (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe in Jesus Christ (trust in Jesus Christ alone) for salvation. Folks who attack faith alone theology don't even seem to understand what is meant by faith alone.

Faith alone isn’t misunderstood by its critics - it’s misdefined pistis. It’s become a reductionist slogan that contradicts its own content. And like most systems, its advocates often mean different things while using the same slogan.

 

[studier]

Those who don't obey Him are those who don't truly believe in Him unto salvation

Sounds like more faith is not alone.

 

[mailmandan]

In distancing yourself from your former [Catholic] roots (which I haven't shared but have studied), you’ve found an alternative system that has stripped pistis of its biblical substance in reaction to a system that overloaded it. But Scripture does define pistis (in much more depth and detail than Strong's) - and Hebrews is one of the richest places to see it. It’s deep, and most English translations miss the weight of what’s being said. What Hebrews reveals about pistis dismantles the reductionism of the faith-alone system, which has negated and mislabeled much of Scripture’s instruction as ‘works.’

In Hebrews 11, we see that it was by or "out of" faith that these people accomplished works and not faith "is" in essence these works, as works-salvationists teach. Faith alone still stands. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone isn’t misunderstood by its critics - it’s misdefined pistis. It’s become a reductionist slogan that contradicts its own content. And like most systems, its advocates often mean different things while using the same slogan.

It's misunderstood. We are saved by faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6) which is not to be confused with a bare profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14)