Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

To qualify my "Agree" checkmark: Agreed - harmonization is key. But it must begin with what each text actually says, not what we want it to say.

If he who believes will be saved (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-26; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. (Mark 16:16) Yet who will be condemned? Those who do not believe. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

 

[studier]

If he who believes will be saved (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-26; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. (Mark 16:16) Yet who will be condemned? Those who do not believe. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

Mark 16:16 ties salvation to belief and baptism; assuming faith-alone to reinterpret it is circular reasoning - another error in logic - and you've not proven any of the verses you listed actually prove faith-alone as you claim.

So, all done for now unless you want to start the process of analyzing each verse and proving your claim.

 

[PaulThomson]

Enduring to the end is not about us pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps in our own strength and keeping ourselves saved by works. Enduring to the end is the identifier of those who are saved. Genuine believers depend on the Holy Spirit who will give them the appropriate and effective words to say in defense of their faith in Jesus Christ when arrested, persecuted and put to death. (Mark 13:11-13) Endurance is proof of genuine conversion. That's why the same shall be saved.

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by those who promote salvation by works.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Do you have scriptures that say -

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) - ?

 

[PaulThomson]

In numerous passages of scripture we see that salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" and there are no contradictions in God's Word. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Mark 16:16 cannot and does not negate these passages of scripture.

If I take your first reference -
John 1:12 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That verse does not say that one can be born again without water baptism It says they are born from God. It does not say that they born from God by faith alone. It does not say that water baptism is not part of the process God uses to bring believers to birth. Your claim that this text teaches that 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' is not true.

 

[PaulThomson]

Good stuff!

Question: For clarity, you're seeing baptism as initial or also in suffering in line with what Jesus said Mark10:38-39?

I would say that water baptism is an earnest appeal to God to partake of the divine life through our resurrection with Christ in baptism, in order to live a life on earth like His, which includes that we will continue to love those who pile on slander and harm to us in response to our good treatment toward them. The choice to follow Christ that baptism expresses, includes a choice to take up a cross, which means bearing unjust slander and abuse without reviling back.

 

[GWH]

If I take your first reference -
John 1:12 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That verse does not say that one can be born again without water baptism It says they are born from God. It does not say that they born from God by faith alone. It does not say that water baptism is not part of the process God uses to bring believers to birth. Your claim that this text teaches that 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' is not true.

After studying Ephesians with me I am astounded that you deny salvation is by grace through faith aka baptism of the Spirit!

 

[PaulThomson]

I get it. You want faith to equal righteousness, rather than understand that righteousness is imputed to those who believe, and this juxtaposed with righteousness by the law. Romans 3 comes before Romans 4. What is taught in Romans 3 is exemplified in Romans 4 in Abraham.

When an accountant imputes the money from the sale of a vehicle to the credit column, he is simply acknowledging the truth about the sale. He is not conjuring up a sale that the salesman did not himself effect. You have a religiously programmed idea of imputation that does not match the real world use of the term.

 

[studier]

I would say that water baptism is an earnest appeal to God to partake of the divine life through our resurrection with Christ in baptism, in order to live a life on earth like His, which includes that we will continue to love those who pile on slander and harm to us in response to our good treatment toward them. The choice to follow Christ that baptism expresses, includes a choice to take up a cross, which means bearing unjust slander and abuse without reviling back.

Still seeking clarity. So 1Pet3:21 is looking back to initial faith & baptism, or baptism as appeal during suffering for the believer, or somehow both?

 

[PaulThomson]

After studying Ephesians with me I am astounded that you deny salvation is by grace through faith aka baptism of the Spirit!

Where did I deny that salvation is by grace through faith? I simply pointed out that the first text in mailmandan's list of texts he used to support a claim that 'In numerous passages of scripture we see that salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' , the first one does not say anything like 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism"'. Can you show me where John 1:12-13 says anything like 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism"' ?

 

[GWH]

Where did I deny that salvation is by grace through faith? I simply pointed out that the first text in mailmandan's list of texts he used to support a claim that 'In numerous passages of scripture we see that salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' , the first one does not say anything like 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism"'. Can you show me where John 1:12-13 says anything like 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism"' ?

Oh okay, I thought you sounded like you denied that there are numerous verses which teach salvation is by receiving the gift of the Spirit aka through faith in Jesus as Messiah without mentioning water baptism as also necessary.

 

[PaulThomson]

Still seeking clarity. So 1Pet3:21 is looking back to initial faith & baptism, or baptism as appeal during suffering for the believer, or somehow both?

Peter has mentioned how only the eight souls who entered the ark were saved through water when the world was destroyed. He than says that this anecdote about the flood is a type of our being saved from destruction through water as we earnestly appeal from our conscience, now cleaned after putting faith in Jesus' death for our sins, for divine power to escape the corruption that is in the world, through our entering into union with Christ in His resurrection through baptism, so that His resurrection life flows into and through us during and after baptism. Baptism for us does include a commitment to bear patiently unjust persecution for the sake of doing good, as Jesus did. It is a commitment to submit to death working on us so that others might receive Christ's life through us. The context indicates that Peter has in mind that we will need to suffer with a clean conscience as Christians. Since the anecdote was about Noah escaping in the ark, I guess we could ask, "Did Noah suffer unfair blame and abuse in the ark?" If not, then Peter is unlikely to be linking to the flood the baptism of suffering unjustly, for doing good, even if water baptism does entail a commitment to face future suffering and abuse patiently.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you have scriptures that say -

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) - ?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you "have been" (past tense with ongoing present results) saved through faith. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. As expressed in John 5:24, the believer has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Saved from the PENALTY of sin. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are "being saved" (present participle, ongoing process) it is the power of God. It is with reference to the present tense of salvation that Philippians 2:12 says - "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." In the present tense believers are being saved from the POWER of sin to work out their salvation and it is God who works in believers both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (vs. 13)

Philippians 3:20 - For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. The redemption of our body is in view. This will take place in the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:52-54) That is when the regenerated spirit will enter into the full fruition of salvation in the future tense when we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. This tense of salvation has to do with the body and the presence of sin in the body.

 

[mailmandan]

If I take your first reference -
John 1:12 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That verse does not say that one can be born again without water baptism It says they are born from God. It does not say that they born from God by faith alone. It does not say that water baptism is not part of the process God uses to bring believers to birth. Your claim that this text teaches that 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' is not true.

John 1:12 clearly states - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: This verse says nothing about water baptism being involved. Elsewhere, in Galatians 3:26, we read - For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus (period) and not by faith and baptism. Children of God by "belief/faith" apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone. This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to accept because of your biased beliefs.

 

[studier]

This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to accept because of your biased beliefs.

With respect, this is unnecessary and can easily be turned around and applied to you. FWIW, from what I've seen from @PaulThomson he works to take from Scripture precisely what it says both grammatically and logically. I can assure you I do the same and I'm sure you assess yourself likewise. We can all be a bit blind to self, thus the benefit of just viewing Scripture objectively with all the tools and assets and abilities we have and partaking of the collective sharpening processes.

 

[Cameron143]

When an accountant imputes the money from the sale of a vehicle to the credit column, he is simply acknowledging the truth about the sale. He is not conjuring up a sale that the salesman did not himself effect. You have a religiously programmed idea of imputation that does not match the real world use of the term.

Why aren't believers under condemnation?

 

[mailmandan]

With respect, this is unnecessary and can easily be turned around and applied to you. FWIW, from what I've seen from @PaulThomson he works to take from Scripture precisely what it says both grammatically and logically. I can assure you I do the same and I'm sure you assess yourself likewise. We can all be a bit blind to self, thus the benefit of just viewing Scripture objectively with all the tools and assets and abilities we have and partaking of the collective sharpening processes.

With respect, trying to "shoehorn" baptism into multiple verses that say we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) is not taking Scripture precisely for what it says both grammatically and logically. The bottom line for me is SCRIPTURE MUST HARMONIZE WITH SCRIPTURE or else we have contradictions and there are no contradictions in God's Word. Prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in a church that taught salvation by water baptism, so none of these pro-salvation by water baptism arguments are anything new or enlightening for me.

Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If I take your first reference -
John 1:12 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

That verse does not say that one can be born again without water baptism It says they are born from God. It does not say that they born from God by faith alone. It does not say that water baptism is not part of the process God uses to bring believers to birth. Your claim that this text teaches that 'salvation is through belief/faith "apart from baptism" ' is not true.

Actually it states a fact.

But as many as have recieved him (no water baptism involved) to them he gave the right to become children of God (born again)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

To those who think that faith alone saves them, Paul says otherwise. He said belief in the heart that God rasied Jesus from the dead justifies, whereas confession, or acknowledgement, with the mouth that Jesus is lord saves. Water baptism is outward acknowledgment that Jesus is lord. So we can conclude from this that verses in which only faith is mentioned are referring to faith that both believes and acts.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10​

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

With respect, this is unnecessary and can easily be turned around and applied to you. FWIW, from what I've seen from @PaulThomson he works to take from Scripture precisely what it says both grammatically and logically. I can assure you I do the same and I'm sure you assess yourself likewise. We can all be a bit blind to self, thus the benefit of just viewing Scripture objectively with all the tools and assets and abilities we have and partaking of the collective sharpening processes.

With respect. this can necissarily bt turned around and applied to Dan.

When Dan looks at scripture. He does not ADD to it. He does not TWIST it. He does not make it say something it does not say. and he has a scripture that interprets itself. not a scripture that contradicts itself.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

To those who think that faith alone saves them, Paul says otherwise. He said beleif in the heart that God rasied Jesus from the dead justifies, whereas confession, or acknowledgement, with the mouth that Jesus is lord saves. Water baptism is outward acknowledgment that Jesus is lord. So we can conclude from this that verses in which only faith is mentioned are referring to faith that both believes and acts.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10​

to those who think that water baptism is required. here is proof positive that they take a verse. ad something to it that is not there. and make a doctrine out of it.

Paul does not say confession and baptism is made into salvation.