Quite a strange analogy. You do realize that taking an aspirin is done to remove the existing headache. Just as obedience to the command of be baptized in the name of Jesus removes one's sin in accordance with His sacrifice.
Saved by faith alone?
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You continue to say you've thoroughly explained scriptures referencing water baptism don't mean what they say. And that is just not so.
Obedience to the God-given command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin is Faith in Action. The action reveals a person truly believes God's word and has placed their full trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has provided. It is just one example of the washing of the water by the word. The word cleanses when a person accepts the truth it reveals pertaining to the NT rebirth experience (Acts 2:2-38) as well as teaching what is, and is not acceptable for the born again Christian.
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17
Some believe man's actions have more to do with salvation then the Blood of Jesus
Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
AGAIN, you misquote Peter's statement in Acts 10:43.
In doing so, many fail to grasp the significance of what Peter actually said. He said, "...IT IS THROUGH HIS NAME (Jesus) those who believe in Jesus shall RECEIVE REMISSION OF SIN. Remission of sin is connected with obedience to water baptism IN THE NAME OF THE JESUS. After receiving the Holy Spirit the group was commanded to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. (Acts 10:47-48) Why? Because in addition to being indwelt with the Holy Ghost the group had to have their sins dealt with. Again, this parallels with the initial gospel message presented at Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)
As to Acts 4:4, 5:14. The scriptures reference they heard the word and believed. Note, Acts 2:41-42 indicate that the people believed Peter's word and were baptized, and the people continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine. What doctrine? The doctrine just presented by Peter in Acts 2:38. To say water baptism was not commanded because every scripture does not mention it is simply not true. Consider that repentance nor receiving the Holy Ghost is specifically mentioned within those scriptures either. Yet, we know they are essential as stated elsewhere in the word.
The truth is witnessed/established by at least 2-3 scriptures.
It’s rather sad to me that both of you have taken my example of taking aspirin “because of” your headache, instead of “in order” to get a headache, and turned it into an analogy of taking aspirin in order to get rid the headache being likened to baptism is for getting rid of your sins. I don’t know why I’m surprised at that, but well done!! If you don’t want to stick to a subject/point-at-hand, but prefer to play juvenile games… consider yourselves victorious, lol.
In my opinion, I did provide you, @Lamar, with the evidences of “because of” being used in Scripture by going to some of the most commonly used versions… you on the other-hand had to source some of the more obscure versions… I consider myself “schooled” by that. Perhaps the translators are like the both of you and have a “works-based” theology?
In my opinion, Scripture clearly teaches us that it is by Faith in the finished work of Jesus that anyone will receive Salvation. It is not water baptism that washes away our sins, only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that. That’s the (spiritual) baptism that each believer must trust in. And regardless of the word games that you two, and many others want to play, I don’t think that you’ll ever be able to harmonize your “works-based” notions with Paul’s clear statement that we are Saved by Faith and not works:
Eph. 2:89-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
It’s a biblical principle that is often repeated throughout the N.T., and you can’t get around it.
I fear that on some day you will stand in front of God and say something like “Lord, Lord didn’t I do all these works, like getting baptized in obedience, in your name? Aren’t you proud of all that I have done!?!” And what He respond with is scary. I do believe that, while you are not so honest in conversations, you are honestly loving God and trying your best. I just fear that you’re trying to do it all in your own strength.
Was James Jesus brother confused also because modern teachers say he is ?
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? ( words v actions )
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ( you can’t show faith unless you act )
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ( knowing
God exists won’t save anyone )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ( see genesis chapter 22 and what the angel said to Abraham )
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ( belief led him to act by faith )
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.( what God said to him earlier was proven true because he acted in faith )
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:14-24, 26
If you read what James is saying can you agree with James ? Can faith without works save someone ? Is faith without works dead ? I mean if your saying James is confused I’d say it’s pride
Im just reading what James wrote or what Paul wrote which also agrees is this also not correct ?
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life
one group and thier reaward) but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, ( the other group and thier reward ) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
Romans 2:4-10 KJV
again Paul’s pretty clear and it’s only confiscating ng if we reject it it’s constant and consistent
God told Abraham where to go and he would be blessed he went and was blessed , God told Noah the flood was coming boah believes him and acted upon the belief and built an ark and was saved by faith his actions were of faith that saved him he didn’t say “I believe but I’m not acting lord that’s not faith “
faith is simple you hear what God said and you accept it and believe it’s true and that leads us in our mind and heart it’s simple and basic
Does what we actually do in our actions matter ? Yes it matters as much as it tells us there we’re going to be judged by the lord based on what we have done and said while in the flesh
“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:9-11 KJV
some men however won’t be persuaded because they don’t understand the terror and judgement coming upon all
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:14, 17 KJV
If I hear this
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16 KJV
it is a seed it can now foot and grow if I accept it as truth “God sent his son to save people if they believe in him from death and give them eternal
Life “ that can become a foundational point of my faith but I have to hear it forst or I could never believe it and if I didn’t hear and believe it I could never have faith
or that word planted in my mind and heart can be destroyed and stolen by the enemy
“When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”
Matthew 13:19 KJV
its not going to root now I let Satan steal it away from my heart and mind I rejected it I didn’t grab ahold when I heard it it didn’t give me true hope it wasn’t believable or important enough
a what I’m saying is you have to hear something before you can believe it when you hear and believe it nd hold on to it it becomes faith that lives in our mind and heart working to teach us discernment of good and evil so we will repent of doing evil and do good
you have to hear the gospel before you can believe the gospel and you have to hear and believe the gospel to have faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
we could never believe on Jesusbunless he came and then afterwards sent the gospel to all
People to hear and believe and be saved
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Faith can only come from hearing the gospel and believing it that’s the one source of faith on earth
"I do believe that, while you are not so honest in conversations," What utter gall!
I provide the versions of Acts 2:38 that YOU request that state "of" instead of the word "for" because it is "important to you".
I in kind request that YOU provide the versions that state "because of" since you seem to think that is what it "really" means and you refuse.
And you have the nerve to label me as "not so honest"?
I will ask you once again show me the versions that use "because of" in Acts 2:38. I am sure you have many to choose from since it is what the author "really meant". I will accept any version and in any language.
If you are an "honest" person you will either show me the versions or admit that Acts 2:38 does not say "because of".
The issue of "for" in your headache analogy is a poor attempt to find a loophole in what is clearly written. And this is why it was pointed out.
And I fear that you will be like the wedding guest that was found not wearing the proper clothing for the feast.
I await your "honest" reply.
You're right. This no-work Salvation has be taken to the extreme. Obedience is our reasonable expectation to be partakers of the divine nature.
2 Peter 1
[2] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
[3] as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
[4] by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (NKJV)
Now you're just being obtuse.
I never said that there was any version that used "because of"... that was never said nor implied; strictly your ideation. I was merely attempting to show that the word "for" (which is used in the more popular versions) would be best interpreted "because of" instead of "in order"... while I might not have been artistic/articulate in my postings, it's you that have thoroughly misunderstood it and I personally think that you did it intentionally. Perhaps I misunderstood? Perhaps you could show me a version that says "in order" instead of "for"? You never did that, either!! But to honest, I would never ask anything so ridiculous as that from anyone.
Your "loophole" theory is equally ridiculous because it's the "works-based" theology which must find loopholes to get around the many Scriptures that say works, of any nature, will please God. But you go ahead and try to work yourself into God's favor... I will rest in Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to impower me to good works...
Yes, if truly done with godly sorrow; this means you're determined to turn from the sin once and for all, e.g., the prodigal son and King David.
Yes, you're still saved because the sin is of ignorance to you; however, once the Holy Spirit enlightens and convicts you, then it becomes willful if you don't confess and forsake the sin. Also, make sure the conviction is coming from the Holy Spirit and not Satan's condemnation; that's why we must take our actions to the Word to look at ourselves through God's mirror. I personally ask for forgiveness daily of any unknown sin in me. I put my trust and faith in the blood of Jesus to cleanse me of all unrighteousness.
With all of this said, we need not walk on egg shells in our walk with God. Jesus loves His true followers and desires to do us good, not to rule us like a warlord. Jesus is kind, gentle and full of grace; but His grace is not to be used for the works of the flesh. That kind of thinking will lead to eternal condemnation (Hell). In this respect, we should fear God.
1 Peter 1
[13] Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
[14] as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
[15] but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
[16] because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
We should respect God and fear Him
[17] And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;
[18] knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
[19] but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. (NKJV)
Amen perfectly said ! here’s a saying that’s full of faith according to Paul that he wanted to constantly be spoken among believers it’s because it will change how we think about this matter
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
Titus 3:8 KJV
this shouldn’t then be argued against with the argument “ faith alone no works involved “ it’s simply living other people requires us to actually help them actually do good towards and for and to others d not lie cheat and steal from them or commit adultery against one another ect that’s sort of a given it seems but Paul is saying as believers we should always be discussing good works and how we can apply them in our lives towards others to give God his glory and impact hearts for Jesus
nothing says I love you like actions we shouldn’t try to seperate faith from obedience and doing the right things it’s meant to be written and snide of our mind and heart so it becomes a transforming method within us from sinful people without discretion to those who learn to become prudent and live lives In self control not laboring against our old nature to try to obey God but just allowing the change that happens as we learn from Jesus out the father and his children obedience comes from the love of the father in us through the gospel
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, ( disciples ) and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
“He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:21-24KJV
If we believe in Jesus it seems like we would want to hear what he was saying about salvation and eternal life even when he’s talking about repentance and actually acting in faith
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
James 1:21-22 KJV
There’s a constant call for growth and pressing forward in the Bible no matter how mature and old and good we get there’s always more we can strive to do better if we’re little or big we still belong to him we need to learn repentance and seek his righteousness in the gospel
okay, for awhile there you made it sound really extreme, we all stumble in various ways, but we still have to at the very minimum try to deal with sin as we go.
Your still confused.Was James Jesus brother confused also because modern teachers say he is ?
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? ( words v actions )
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ( you can’t show faith unless you act )
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ( knowing
God exists won’t save anyone )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ( see genesis chapter 22 and what the angel said to Abraham )
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ( belief led him to act by faith )
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.( what God said to him earlier was proven true because he acted in faith )
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:14-24, 26
If you read what James is saying can you agree with James ? Can faith without works save someone ? Is faith without works dead ? I mean if your saying James is confused I’d say it’s pride
Im just reading what James wrote or what Paul wrote which also agrees is this also not correct ?
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, ( the other group and thier reward ) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
Romans 2:4-10 KJV
again Paul’s pretty clear and it’s only confiscating ng if we reject it it’s constant and consistent
God told Abraham where to go and he would be blessed he went and was blessed , God told Noah the flood was coming boah believes him and acted upon the belief and built an ark and was saved by faith his actions were of faith that saved him he didn’t say “I believe but I’m not acting lord that’s not faith “
faith is simple you hear what God said and you accept it and believe it’s true and that leads us in our mind and heart it’s simple and basic
Does what we actually do in our actions matter ? Yes it matters as much as it tells us there we’re going to be judged by the lord based on what we have done and said while in the flesh
“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:9-11 KJV
some men however won’t be persuaded because they don’t understand the terror and judgement coming upon all
I will repeat the verses below to clarify the thorny premise of faith plus works.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
We are a new creation in Christ and the new creation is designed for good works. Notice the order.
But we do not confuse our works as a new creation with that reconciliation that Christ bestowed upon us.
2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.
It is important to understand how you are reconciled, "created in Christ Jesus for good works"
When quoting from the letter of James, be very careful, make sure you understand what James is saying.
James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.
Faith is paramount, a perfect faith is the goal.
John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (the gospel)
For some reason, many folk add works to the reconciliation that Christ performed? They end up with a distorted gospel.
Salvation is a gift granted by grace through Christ alone.
It is critical that the primary doctrine in Christianity is understood by all.
Christ alone first, then works second.
Everyone sins. To be free of sin, perfectly holy is impossible.
Perfection in love is attainable.
1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith.
If you apply yourself to loving others everyday, you won't have a lot of time left to sin.
John's baptism was the shadow baptism that was fulfilled by Jesus.
Luke 3:16
John responded to them all, saying, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
The baptism in water is an outward demonstration of your commitment to Jesus.
The spiritual baptism that Christ granted is the bona fide baptism.
John's baptism was the shadow baptism that was fulfilled by Jesus. John's baptism is a baptism for the remission of sins. It is never called a "shadow baptism", that is manmade conjecture.
Luke 3:16
John responded to them all, saying, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand nor does it negate the baptism for the remission of sins.
The baptism in water is an outward demonstration of your commitment to Jesus. Regardless, the issue is at what point or moment is the remission of sins? Your signing of a marriage certificate can be a "outward demonstration" of your willingness to be married but it is still needed to be married.
The spiritual baptism that Christ granted is the bona fide baptism. "Spiritual baptism is metaphysical and so cannot be commanded or proven. It can only be claimed at best and most certainly cannot be "bona fide" by anyone other then God.
Your words are but the surmises of human philosophy. Mankind is in a fallen state because of sin, we are forgiven where the sin is removed. That moment is not at some vague time during our conversion but at our baptism.
We are saved by Faith alone only when we acknowledge and embrace that we were saved by Christ alone. In other words, being saved by Faith alone is the same as being saved by Christ alone !
However most in modern day religion hath made faith their saviour by saying that they aren't saved by Christ until they exercise faith or by their act of believing, that's salvation by works !
However most in modern day religion hath made faith their saviour by saying that they aren't saved by Christ until they exercise faith or by their act of believing, that's salvation by works !
These scriptures referencing water baptism mean what they say in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture. They just don't mean what you say. I see that you dodged my question from post #235 for a second time. Does John 6:54 mean what it says? - "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Did Jesus mean this literally? Cannibalism? Of course not. Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
The language is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread is only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed in water, he washes away his sins in the same sense Paul did in Acts 22:16. Not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the blood of Christ by which sins are actually washed away. (Colossians 1:14; Ephesians 1:7)
Obedience/action which "follows" faith in Christ unto salvation is "works" and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
Action (namely, receiving water baptism) signifies that a person truly believes God's word and has placed their full trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Sadly though, there have been numerous people over the years in various false religions and cults who profess to be Christians yet trust in their baptism + other works to save them instead of fully trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has provided through His death, burial and resurrection. Such people are not genuine believers.
The word "water" in Ephesians 5:26 is used as an emblem of the word of God in regard to washing, cleansing and becoming born again. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23) Plain ordinary H20 has no power to accomplish this.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.