Post #237 has only one comment and it is yours and I am agreeing with you. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. But that is a tacit understanding.
Is that the only thing you got out of what I wrote? That prima facie has exceptions.?
Saved by faith alone?
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Is that the only thing you got out of what I wrote? That prima facie has exceptions.?
Sorry but "pet verses" are dan's term not mine (Post # 235).
Reread his verses. None of them speak of being saved by faith alone and that is the issue of the OP.
It's been my experience when discussing things Biblical, that some people, when they see their position argued well, they can get frustrated and just exclaim, "It's all plain writing! The Bible says it, and I believe it!" (Or something to that effect). It's as though they're challenging others to call God a liar... it's all rather sophomoric, but I've been there too.
I thought that you did well when you last answered a post of mine... that effectively, you believe in a works-based Salvation because that's what you think the Scriptures teach... I have no argument for that.
I don't think that you, or most people, see me as a "teacher"... and I don't presume the role.
You're not quite right. Read it carefully. He OBEYED
Hebrews 11:8
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
He believed then he responded. We do as we think. He didn't do and then believe. Had he not believed...had faith...he would not have done.
I think we're in agreement. If you believe, then you'll be obedient and do what you're told to do. Some call this "works", but it's really just being obedient. You're not saved or justified until you're obedient.
But which is more important, believed or responded? Or are each necessary?
You are saved, in my understanding, when you believe. And I would argue that God is already at work.
They go together. Faith without works is dead. But works don't proceed Faith, they follow.
Then we are not in agreement nor are your views supported by scripture. It also appears you're contradicting yourself and previous comment to which I thought I agreed with. I don't see how you can say what you previously said and now say this, that belief is all that's necessary, excluding obedient action. Think about it. Goodbye
We don't agree. That's what I was pointing out. But that's no reason to end a conversation. Make your points. I'll listen with an open mind.
how much does it really matter if you believe first or obey first if we need both? Isnt the decision to believe a small act of obdience in itself?
Obedience is required. It demonstrates your belief and faith. Without obedience belief and faith are vain.
Read my above post 244 re Abraham. The Hebrews passage cited is crystal clear.
Obedient how? What must an unbeliever, obediently do, in order to be Saved... in your opinion?
Supplement to my other response. Read the conversion of Saul in Acts 9. Jesus spoke yo him and told him what more he had to do. He dud so, and wad baptized by Ananias. If when he heard Jesus and obviously believed, why did he yet have more to do? It's obvious. It's bring obedient and in this case, his obedience converted him. He wad baptized and added to the body of Christ.
It's not my opinion 1st of all. When you consider ALL pertinent scriptures regarding salvation and combine all requirements, you end up with
1. Belief/faith
2. Confession of belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 and consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repentance (Acts 2,:38 as was told to the Jews on the day of Pentecost)
4. Baptism (also per Acts 2:38)
Doing so, your sins are remitted, you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the Lord adds you to his body which is the church per Acts 2:47. You thus become a Christian and child of God.
I've read them. We just disagree. You believe obedience is necessary for or as a cause of salvation. I believe it is an outcome of true salvation. That's what you find in Ephesians 2:8-10. It says we are saved by grace through faith. Then it clearly states not by works. Then it says we were saved for works. That's why I believe as I do.
Right. Jesus spoke...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Because he believed Jesus, he did as Jesus said.
What he did evidenced the fact that he believed.