faith without works = dead faith. You are teaching that we are saved by dead faith.
faith + works = live faith. I am agreeing with scripture that faith without works is dead faith and does not save.
Saved by faith alone?
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faith without works = dead faith. You are teaching that we are saved by dead faith.
faith + works = live faith. I am agreeing with scripture that faith without works is dead faith and does not save.
It was implied. Faith AND WORKS.
I already thoroughly explained the difference between faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5'6) and an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24) Do you understand the difference?
So, do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) or through faith AND works? There is a huge difference. I have no agenda. I'm simply explaining the difference.
We are saved through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation and not by a bare profession of faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Is this confusing for you?
Again, you have it backwards. A dead faith would be void of works. they do nto work because they do nto have faith.
No. I teach we are saved by grace through faith (NOT WORKS) and that those saved WILL WORK.
for salvation faith plus works = works
once again, you can not deny you teach salvation by works, they present works as a means of salvation.
We seem to agree then. We are saved by faith and that faith MUST have commensurate works, otherwise that faith is useless.
But you have some kind of doctrinal rigidity that means you only allow the statement to be stated in one particular way, even if the way you state it contradicts the way Scripture states it.
But you have some kind of doctrinal rigidity that means you only allow the statement to be stated in one particular way, even if the way you state it contradicts the way Scripture states it.
Works are not baked into faith.
There is no guarantee that a sincere faith regardless of the degree or object will produce works.
Faith and works are not two sides of the same coin, they are distinct.
They are two very different concepts that are not dependent on the other.
You seem to insist that all acts of obedience are meritorious. Why?
If I state that a person must repent in order to be redeemed, why must you label this act as one of merit?
I simply do not grasp this line of reasoning.
Help me understand this.
Agreement would be achieved if you both would add a new preposition to your statements: before.
As in "We are saved by grace through faith in the creed/kerygma before working with God/cooperating with GW
regarding how we should then live (didachaic doctrines).
An interesting conversation between the Jews and Jesus. Read it in context....
But the point that Jesus highlighted is that if we are committing sin we are a servent of sin. We are in bondage to sin if we can't become free of it.
Joh 8:32-36
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.....:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So does Jesus make us free from sin or just free from the penalty of sin?
Paul helps us to understand this in Roms 6. Read all of it....
Rom 6:12-13
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:17-18
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Point being we are servents to sin or servents to Christ. Faith is vital but without a changed heart the faith is not going to help. Faith and works are important together. Our works do not gain favour they reflect the faith we believe.
But the point that Jesus highlighted is that if we are committing sin we are a servent of sin. We are in bondage to sin if we can't become free of it.
Joh 8:32-36
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.....:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So does Jesus make us free from sin or just free from the penalty of sin?
Paul helps us to understand this in Roms 6. Read all of it....
Rom 6:12-13
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:17-18
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Point being we are servents to sin or servents to Christ. Faith is vital but without a changed heart the faith is not going to help. Faith and works are important together. Our works do not gain favour they reflect the faith we believe.
Another good illustration of faith and works is ....
When we are in the middle of an ocean surrounded by water and sin, troubles and problems. Christ comes to us walking on the water.
It is impossible to walk on water ..
But not for Jesus.
We want to be close to Jesus but water and sin seperates us.
We can make excuses ..... it's impossible
..... we will sink.
..... I can't do it.
..... God doesn't expect me to walk on water.
....... only Jesus can do that.
But Peter asked and by faith stepped into the water and walked on water.
By faith Peter did the impossible and walked on water. He failed and sank but Jesus was ready to save him.
Is our faith willing to step out of the safety of the boat and do the impossible.
Faith and works are inseparable
When we are in the middle of an ocean surrounded by water and sin, troubles and problems. Christ comes to us walking on the water.
It is impossible to walk on water ..
But not for Jesus.
We want to be close to Jesus but water and sin seperates us.
We can make excuses ..... it's impossible
..... we will sink.
..... I can't do it.
..... God doesn't expect me to walk on water.
....... only Jesus can do that.
But Peter asked and by faith stepped into the water and walked on water.
By faith Peter did the impossible and walked on water. He failed and sank but Jesus was ready to save him.
Is our faith willing to step out of the safety of the boat and do the impossible.
Faith and works are inseparable
No we do not agree. Not even close.
You resemble a pharisee. a modern day jew who inserts works into grace making grace null and void.
I am more like the tax collector. not even able to look up. crying out for Gods mercy.
Sorry bro. But this is way out there
if You are going to tell me you have confident assurance in someone, You trust them, you are confident in them, yet your NEVER going to do anything they ask. or try to resemble them in any way?
I am not buying it. No one should. you should not either
Actually faith produces works.. they are not the same. one empowers the other.
I do not have faith because I have works (works do not empower faith) I have works because I have living faith
Actually works depend on faith. You do works based on what your faith is in self. If you trust self. you will have self righteous works or works of the flesh. If you trust God you will have works that represent God and come from him, empowered by him
that is why James said, if you CLAIM you have faith, but have no works. is your faith real? No, it is dead.
A dead faith can't save. because a dead faith in God is literally a faith is self.
Licentiousness and legalism all come from the same root source. The flesh
Why does one do the works.. Get the cause or the reason. and you will see what the context is
If I am doing works to save myself. keep myself saved, or keep from losing salvation. I am doing works of merit.. I am serving my own interest (trying to save myself) and not the interest of God (serving him)
Repent is not a work. it is a change of heart. a change of mind, a change of thinking. Who causes our change of thinking? Is it self or is it God?
we also remember there is faith to lead us to eternal life
and there is faith to cause us to grow in Christ so we can walk on water
I may have faith to receive the gift of God and save me, and not yet have the faith to even try to walk on water.
it does not mean I am not saved, nor that I will not eventually have that faith.
Yes, and there are 3 tenses to salvation.
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (progressive or ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
spot on Bro.
sadly people want to make them all rely on the other. in that all have to be done for all to be fulfilled.
ie, justification depends on sanctification.
Mark 13:13
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.
context is key
this is talking about end times
during this time it will be severe persecution. Jesus is offering those suffering this hope by saying if you can endure until the end of this period (when I come back) You will be saved (physical salvation not spiritual)
this is not talking about eternal salvation
Matthew 10:22
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
There is no need to "properly harmonize" these verses, they do not conflict.
Mailmandan, you see disharmony because you view the Bible through your faith alone regeneration theology.
Because you see faith as the sole agency of redemption, these verses seem out of whack, they are not.
You are cherry picking some verses to be all-encompassing statements and this is where the confusion begins.
Just read the verses as written and resist the urge to inject "alone" into select ones.
You will see that they are already in "Perfect Harmony".
lol
Thats because we are saved by grace alone
but God will not force it on us,. he demands we recieve it in faith
where is your faith? In God. and his promise based on his work. or in your works?
Psalm 61:13
And mercy to thee, O Lord; for thou wilt render to every man according to his works.
And mercy to thee, O Lord; for thou wilt render to every man according to his works.