Let me ask you this question then:
Is a Gentile Christian who does not observe the Sabbath from Friday night until Saturday as outlined in the Law of Moses - are they sinning and dis-obeying God?
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Let me ask you this question then:
Is a Gentile Christian who does not observe the Sabbath from Friday night until Saturday as outlined in the Law of Moses - are they sinning and dis-obeying God?
We don't teach that the law is dead - The truth is the real Christian has died to the Law has been released from the law and is not under the Law anymore. The law of Moses is NOT for the Christian to live by. We live by Christ now.
Why do we always replace Christ with the law?
Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 6:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24
The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.
But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.
People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.
If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.
It's where people are saying "You must observe these things like observing the Sabbath day as in the Old Testament or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God and sinning" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10
Paul says in 1 Tim. 1:9 that the the law was made for the unrighteous - NOT for the righteous - we are the righteous in Christ. Unless you are trying to establish your own righteousness - then the law will condemn you and do "it's job".
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24
The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.
But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.
People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.
If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.
It's where people are saying "You must observe these things like observing the Sabbath day as in the Old Testament or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God and sinning" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10
Paul says in 1 Tim. 1:9 that the the law was made for the unrighteous - NOT for the righteous - we are the righteous in Christ. Unless you are trying to establish your own righteousness - then the law will condemn you and do "it's job".
First of all, what is your idea of observing the Sabbath. God said to keep it separate, and this I know I do.
Secondly, why do you refer to a "gentile christian?" Do you not know? Are you not aware that we are fellow heirs now
with Israel? Our Kingdom to come has a capital called New Jerusalem, did you not know this?
If you believe you are not of the heirs with all Hebrews of Israel, then you should study the Word much more.. It is all to easy to p pick and choose a loose line here and another there to cut and paste to support an argument of the mind, but to be accurate, truly, we learn from thh Holy Spirit.
Now as for how your type of believer should or should not observe the Sabbath, that is between the believer and His Father. I do not condemn anyone for observing a Sabbath onthe first day, but I do glorify my Father by observing it on the day He sleected and designated.
It is never a sin to teach obeience of our Father, and all who know Jesus Chrsit are perfectly capable by the HOly Spirit to discern which laws are to be obeyed. Do not act as though this is not tru for it is our faith that establishes the law, that is according to Paul in Romans.
God bless you and do obey theFather always. I cannot advise any to disobey Him...that would be Satan talking.
Secondly, why do you refer to a "gentile christian?" Do you not know? Are you not aware that we are fellow heirs now
with Israel? Our Kingdom to come has a capital called New Jerusalem, did you not know this?
If you believe you are not of the heirs with all Hebrews of Israel, then you should study the Word much more.. It is all to easy to p pick and choose a loose line here and another there to cut and paste to support an argument of the mind, but to be accurate, truly, we learn from thh Holy Spirit.
Now as for how your type of believer should or should not observe the Sabbath, that is between the believer and His Father. I do not condemn anyone for observing a Sabbath onthe first day, but I do glorify my Father by observing it on the day He sleected and designated.
It is never a sin to teach obeience of our Father, and all who know Jesus Chrsit are perfectly capable by the HOly Spirit to discern which laws are to be obeyed. Do not act as though this is not tru for it is our faith that establishes the law, that is according to Paul in Romans.
God bless you and do obey theFather always. I cannot advise any to disobey Him...that would be Satan talking.
That's right guys, Antichrist it is, how dare anyone suggest that the person who is breaking the law is sinning. Don't you know the law only points out sin?
But when that person has come to Christ even though the law says its sin its not for the one in Christ.
Its simple really. If you accept Christ then breaking the law is not sin, But if you don't then the same thing is sin.
but if you keep the law outside of Christ that is good but impossible, however if you keep it after accepting Christ then you are an adulterous sinner.
See its simple, Its sin to break the law until you come to Christ then its sin to keep it, how hard is that.
I don't understand how anyone does not believe this with logic like that.
But when that person has come to Christ even though the law says its sin its not for the one in Christ.
Its simple really. If you accept Christ then breaking the law is not sin, But if you don't then the same thing is sin.
but if you keep the law outside of Christ that is good but impossible, however if you keep it after accepting Christ then you are an adulterous sinner.
See its simple, Its sin to break the law until you come to Christ then its sin to keep it, how hard is that.
I don't understand how anyone does not believe this with logic like that.
All who know Jesus Christ find it a bit confusing when grace only folks tell them they are under the law when they choose to obey the Father.
Those who make this accusation are obviously void of the guidance of the Holy Spirit for all who know Jesus know by the Holy Spirit which laws are to be obeyed. Yes, they do.
Any saying we should not obey what we know is goo is not guided by the Holy Spirit, or not listening to Himj.
AS Paul teaches in Romans, faithestablishes the law. Forme this means our faith guides us on what to obey.
Here are some easy ways to know what is the law for a believer saved by grace.
Is the law merciful? You show mercy.
Is the law just? You show justice.
Is the law of faith in Christ? Show faith in your observation or your ignoring it.
Does the law fall in the area of Love, for God is Love?
It does not take an Isaiah, an Abraham, an Elijah, a Daniel, an Noah, or any of the others to know this basic understanding of the law, but I tell you all the Pharisees of today cannot discern what to obey because they are, frankly, false.
Those who make this accusation are obviously void of the guidance of the Holy Spirit for all who know Jesus know by the Holy Spirit which laws are to be obeyed. Yes, they do.
Any saying we should not obey what we know is goo is not guided by the Holy Spirit, or not listening to Himj.
AS Paul teaches in Romans, faithestablishes the law. Forme this means our faith guides us on what to obey.
Here are some easy ways to know what is the law for a believer saved by grace.
Is the law merciful? You show mercy.
Is the law just? You show justice.
Is the law of faith in Christ? Show faith in your observation or your ignoring it.
Does the law fall in the area of Love, for God is Love?
It does not take an Isaiah, an Abraham, an Elijah, a Daniel, an Noah, or any of the others to know this basic understanding of the law, but I tell you all the Pharisees of today cannot discern what to obey because they are, frankly, false.
Finally, am reminded of a wonderful teaching from the Word, and it applies to exactly how I feel aabout being obedient to God.
It is better to be a fool in the sight of men for the sake of God than to be a fool in the sight of God for the sake of men.
When it comes to obedience my aim is to please god not selfish men.
It is better to be a fool in the sight of men for the sake of God than to be a fool in the sight of God for the sake of men.
When it comes to obedience my aim is to please god not selfish men.
Ezekiel said if people are warned and not take heed it is their problem and not ours anymore. After almost 100 pages (and plenty more on other threads on CC) I believe it to be ample warning
So, in reality you are saying that Christians who don't follow the Sabbath as outlined in the Old testament are in fact sinning and dis-obeying God. Thank you. Now we know what is really believed.
That my friend is a Judaizing spirit and it is no different than the Judaizers that came to the Galatians telling them they must keep the law.
They used circumcision as their 'way". If anything circumcision has a stronger basis to "live by the law" because God told Abraham to be circumcised to be in the covenant.
Galatians 5:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
You are correect, as usual. I continue in thes silly debates for the sake of people passing through who may not be familiar ith what is being taught from the Word, and I just do not want them to go off with the folks who are alreaqd donfused and teaching confusion.
YOu are right...........God bless you .....
YOu are right...........God bless you .....
Please do not explain back to me what I am saying when you clearly have not understood.....I will let you kow what I am saying when necessary.
Right now, what I have said is in plain words with no cloaking, so there is no need for explanation. Perhaps a friend could explain to you what I have posted.
It seems there is an attempt to provokeme to condemn. I do not condemn anyone, ever, not do I attmpt to provoke others to temptation.
Right now, what I have said is in plain words with no cloaking, so there is no need for explanation. Perhaps a friend could explain to you what I have posted.
It seems there is an attempt to provokeme to condemn. I do not condemn anyone, ever, not do I attmpt to provoke others to temptation.
Jesus said to a man that he was to present himself to the priest when Jesus healed him ( as per the law ) Do we do that today? Of course not. We live in the New Covenant.
When Jesus was asked by the man who thought he kept the law - what must I do to be saved? Jesus gave him the commandments which exposed the truth that he actually broke the very first one because he had money as his God.
Do we tell people now in the New Covenant ( well - law-keepers that don't really know the gospel might do this ) that they must keep the law as in the commandments in order to be saved? Of course not.
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Don't be replacing Christ and what He has done for Law -keeping. It's idolatry and committing spiritual adultery on the Lord and in essence you are breaking the very first commandment if you have eyes to see it. Exchanging Christ Himself for external law-keeping is contrary to the gospel of Christ.
The true Christian ( whether Jew or gentile ) has died to the law, been released from the law and is not under the law of Moses in any shapr or fashion. Rom. 7:1-7, Rom. 6:14
Speak forthright then and be honest with us.
Is a Christian ( whether of Jewish or Gentile descent ) who does not observe the Sabbath from Friday night until Saturday as outlined in the Law of Moses - are they sinning and dis-obeying God?
It is a "yes or no" answer.
I'll give you an example of this:
If someone asks me if living a homosexual lifestyle is sinning - I would say Yes.
I am totally baffled by your kn owledge of the Word. Do you not know our High Priest is Jesus Christ? Also we are made priests to the Most High God, but our Mediator is Christ only.
You are finding words to quote but without understanding.
Also I have already shown you in words of understanding that by the Holy Spirit we KNOW which laws are and which are not.......only those not guided by the HOly Spirit would need ask such questions.
I know I love everyone who comes into this room, and e3lsewhere, so please do not go there also.....The love of God does not allow for error in sharing of His Word, though it does forgive honest error......otherwise no one would be saved.
Inthe love of God,a nd because of it, please ceas thes vain attmpts to catch me up; I am not worthy of such attention.
You are finding words to quote but without understanding.
Also I have already shown you in words of understanding that by the Holy Spirit we KNOW which laws are and which are not.......only those not guided by the HOly Spirit would need ask such questions.
I know I love everyone who comes into this room, and e3lsewhere, so please do not go there also.....The love of God does not allow for error in sharing of His Word, though it does forgive honest error......otherwise no one would be saved.
Inthe love of God,a nd because of it, please ceas thes vain attmpts to catch me up; I am not worthy of such attention.
Grace, maybe the correct place to start would be what do you see as observing the Sabbath?
You see Jesus said that we should not judge less we be judged. So for me Sabbath observance can be something totally different than for you (within the Biblical boundaries).
If you ask me about sin or not sinning we have to look at the definition of sin. The Hebrew meaning of sin is to miss the mark. What mark? Could it be the standards set by us from God? Think about it and let us stop this mudslinging on a Christian website.
God bless brother.
I do believe that people like Grace, Grandpa and EG really do love God with all their heart.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
I do also understand that even the apostles (guided by Holy Spirit) struggled with the same issues we are discussing here today 2000 years later
God bless friends
Old Testament observance of the Sabbath Day which is a mere shadow of Christ Himself is outlined in the law of Moses. It is observing all that is in the law concerning the day and how it is to be observed.
I have said over and over again that people are free in Christ to observe the day as they want but if others say that Christians that do not observe the Sabbath day as outlined in the law of Moses - that they are sinning and dis-obeying God. - this is a Judaizing spirit that distorts the gospel of Christ and it is replacing Him for the carnal keeping of the law which is a shadow of Christ Himself.
If we want to keep this place as a "Christian site" - we need to expose that Judaizing spirit for what it is and not allow it to try to distort and deceive the young Christians.
God bless you too brother and I know you observe the Sabbath in your own way that you have chosen to do from your heart based on Christ Himself and in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.
The Lord saves us from sin but not by putting us back to work at the law.
Its not like we were working at the law and weren't able to do it and then we are saved and all of a sudden we can work at the law.
We tried to be Righteous before God by working at the law and weren't able to.
After being saved we are Righteous by our faith in Christ and His Work in us.
Even after being saved we are never Righteous before God by our work at the law.
So the Lord didn't save us from breaking the law by causing us to be righteous by our work at it. But He did save us from our breaking of the law by causing us to not work at it anymore, to be dead to the law and alive to Christ.
Working at the law shouldn't be some difficult concept. If you look back to the OT and say "we need to do that" that is working at the law. If you look at the 10 commandments and say "that still has authority over a Christian" you are working at the law.
Galatians 3:10-14
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
You seem to have some sort of disconnect in regards to working at the law. For some reason you think it is just fine, in fact necessary, to work at the law. You think the Lord Jesus has caused you to work at the law.
Not one jot or tittle has been taken away from the law. If you are working at it, you are obligated to work at the whole thing, not just the parts you like. Until you finally get it. Until you finally realize the futility of your work and understanding of the law. You aren't justified by it, you aren't right before God by it. It is for transgressors, those who reject Grace.
If you come to Christ to receive Rest, you are no longer under the law, you are under Grace.
It doesn't make any sense to say you are not under the law, you are not working at the law, and then say you are still obligated to rest on saturdays. The only reason a person would think that is because they looked back at the 10 commandments and decided they need to work at it.
Colossians 2:14-17
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[FONT="]14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Apply this to the whole concept of a carnal commandment, ie working at the law.
The Lord said not ONE jot or tittle would be removed until ALL was fulfilled. So all must have been fulfilled in order for any of the jots or tittles to be removed. Right?????????
[/FONT]
All who believe Jesus Christ. It is important to know the truth that we ae to be taught by the Holy Spirit.
Any of us may paste a myriad of cuts of text from the Word but without the Holy Spirit to teach us or impart from one to another
we ae not going to get anywwhere.
All will wind up very uinhappy if they rely on the written word without the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit that gives life always. Think about this and pray on it....it is most important.
Any of us may paste a myriad of cuts of text from the Word but without the Holy Spirit to teach us or impart from one to another
we ae not going to get anywwhere.
All will wind up very uinhappy if they rely on the written word without the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit that gives life always. Think about this and pray on it....it is most important.