Sabbath

[seed_time_harvest]

A person can be laying down resting their body an still be worried Into fear about something but to rest In CHRIST means regardless of what happens,GOD Is almighty and If GOD Is with you,nothing can come near you and shake you out of that rest.

 

[gotime]

If you aren't trying to convince other Christians that they should be working at the law that is good.

But if you can't see that you have placed yourself back under the law then I probably can't convince you.

You posted the verses in Exodus to prove your point. That's the law.

All I can gather from that is that you just don't understand that if you place yourself under part of the law then you have placed yourself under all of it. You can't just pick and choose which laws you like and which you don't like.

Thats what Galatians is trying to tell you. Don't go back to the yoke of bondage. Stay in Christ.

Here is the problem as i see it. You seem to think I am under the law to some degree. I disagree. But here is the problem You are unable to show me scripture that shows I am under the law. So I have to assume that you are simply bringing your own view to this discussion and I base my views on scripture.

If you can not demonstrate it from scripture then how can you be sure you are right?

 

[beta]

I think people should specify 'which law they are under -or not'.
There is the 'law/letter of Moses which we are NOT under....then
there is the 'law/love of Christ we ARE under.
So to simply state we are 'not under law' is to say ''we are lawless'' .
I think Jesus has something to say about that !

 

[Grandpa]

Here is the problem as i see it. You seem to think I am under the law to some degree. I disagree. But here is the problem You are unable to show me scripture that shows I am under the law. So I have to assume that you are simply bringing your own view to this discussion and I base my views on scripture.

If you can not demonstrate it from scripture then how can you be sure you are right?

You guys have elaborate ways to pick and choose which laws you think you should work at and which laws you don't need to work at.

The bible says if you start working at one aspect of the law you have placed yourself under all of it.

Exodus 20:9-11
[FONT=&quot]9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


How can you look to these scriptures to justify your 7th day and somehow say you are not under the law?

Apparently you are under that one.

And if you are under that one you are under all of them.[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

I think people should specify 'which law they are under -or not'.
There is the 'law/letter of Moses which we are NOT under....then
there is the 'law/love of Christ we ARE under.
So to simply state we are 'not under law' is to say ''we are lawless'' .
I think Jesus has something to say about that !

In your effort to be under the law you have conflated the law of Moses with the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is something we are under when we come to Christ. And Receive Rest. Its not something that causes us to work at the 10 commandments. See 2 Corinthians 3. I have posted it multiple times.

 

[garee]

A person can be laying down resting their body an still be worried Into fear about something but to rest In CHRIST means regardless of what happens,GOD Is almighty and If GOD Is with you,nothing can come near you and shake you out of that rest.

A physical rest is not in veiw .We I believe should look to the spiritual if we are to find the gospel a meaning hid from the lost

I think the Jews in respect to the flesh have destroyed the purpose of getting out the gospel on the Sabbath with the oral traditions of the fathers making the true Sabbath/fast as a ceremonial law without effect.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Not rest for your bodies)

Taking my yoke is learning from Christ who dwells in the believer. In that we find rest for our souls (not intended for physical rest necessarily)

The Sabbath is a non time sensitive word. It is used in respect to our soul in so much that we labor in our relationship to do the will of God. It is the kind of food the disciples knew not of, the food of doing the will of another. It is the action of not looking for spiritual food represented by Manna, haven eaten twice the amount baked in a wood fire the day before.. It can benefit our physical bodies but that was not the intent. We should look the spiritual meaning hidden in the parables that use the word Sabbath.

And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.Exo 16:23

One example of one person who did not follow the commandment not to bake or cook the manna on that day, gathered sticks in order bake the manna to eat.

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. Num 15:32


Therefore because we do not have to perform the serville work of feeding these bodies of death we have been given to share in the work of brining the gospel (yoked with Christ) one day a week to our neighbors .A day when a person has no servile work as to the necessary food for our bodies. Ultimately it’s a day when we can fast by bringing the gospel and offering it to others.

The Jews after the oral traditions of the elders have made the Sabbath into something far from its purpose. Making the faith of Christ without effect.

Like the Sabbath day walk as to distance( no such law), the eating of three koshers meals etc. Some fasted twice on that day in order to boast, having two kosher meals.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remained over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The Sabbath is a day we can bring the gospel as the true fast it can loosen the binding of sin.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

A physical rest is not in veiw .We I believe should look to the spiritual if we are to find the gospel a meaning hid from the lost

I think the Jews in respect to the flesh have destroyed the purpose of getting out the gospel on the Sabbath with the oral traditions of the fathers making the true Sabbath/fast as a ceremonial law without effect.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Not rest for your bodies)

Taking my yoke is learning from Christ who dwells in the believer. In that we find rest for our souls (not intended for physical rest necessarily)

The Sabbath is a non time sensitive word. It is used in respect to our soul in so much that we labor in our relationship to do the will of God. It is the kind of food the disciples knew not of, the food of doing the will of another. It is the action of not looking for spiritual food represented by Manna, haven eaten twice the amount baked in a wood fire the day before.. It can benefit our physical bodies but that was not the intent. We should look the spiritual meaning hidden in the parables that use the word Sabbath.

And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.Exo 16:23

One example of one person who did not follow the commandment not to bake or cook the manna on that day, gathered sticks in order bake the manna to eat.

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. Num 15:32


Therefore because we do not have to perform the serville work of feeding these bodies of death we have been given to share in the work of brining the gospel (yoked with Christ) one day a week to our neighbors .A day when a person has no servile work as to the necessary food for our bodies. Ultimately it’s a day when we can fast by bringing the gospel and offering it to others.

The Jews after the oral traditions of the elders have made the Sabbath into something far from its purpose. Making the faith of Christ without effect.

Like the Sabbath day walk as to distance( no such law), the eating of three koshers meals etc. Some fasted twice on that day in order to boast, having two kosher meals.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remained over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The Sabbath is a day we can bring the gospel as the true fast it can loosen the binding of sin.

I see that you responded to my post but I think you should take another look at It.

 

[gotime]

You guys have elaborate ways to pick and choose which laws you think you should work at and which laws you don't need to work at.

The bible says if you start working at one aspect of the law you have placed yourself under all of it.

Exodus 20:9-11
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


How can you look to these scriptures to justify your 7th day and somehow say you are not under the law?

Apparently you are under that one.

And if you are under that one you are under all of them.

That is just it though, I am not under it at all. If I were under that law then I would not be under Christ and thus no life for me.

Just because that law teaches me truth and I use it to shew that truth does not mean I am under it. To be under the law is to not be in Christ. I have accepted Christ and his works in me.

Under the law does not mean you obey it or use it for instruction. It means you are not under Christ. Take out Christ and all you have is law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Notice here for example, Paul uses the phrase under the law, Yet he also says that because we are under grace we should not sin. Paul's view of sin is breaking the law. as seen in chapter 3 and 7 and many other places.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I used this one because it uses that phrase under the law again. So the law gives us a knowledge of sin.

SO it is clear to the thoughtful mind that Paul saw under the law as a simple result of not being in Grace/in Christ. But He also saw that those who are under Grace do not sin/break the law. Thus they keep it. Romans 2 says they do it by nature notice this:



Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

That is the new covenant of grace which means that by nature they "do" what the law says.

See Grace is transformation from sinner to the love of Christ. From disobedient to obedient. From law breakers to law keepers.

Under the law does not mean what you are suggesting. The law is only a problem to the unregenerated heart thus without Christ we are unregenerated and thus under the law. But when the Grace of Christ changes us we are no longer under the law yet we are obedient to the law in His Grace. The love of God is shed in our hearts. The law is love.



1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Do you know what He is saying here? The term under law is a reference to the Jews who have the law but not Christ yet. The without the law is a reference to the Gentiles who do not have the law yet Paul makes it clear that he is not saying the law does not matter. he is in the law to God and under the law to Christ. That simply means he is under Grace and thus has been changed into the image of God.

Of course there is Galatians also which I will not go into now as we have seen Paul's view of under the law in Romans.

I believe your definition of under the law is not biblical but your own. As demonstrated by Paul.

So then I am not under the law but under Grace and Just because I reference the law just like Paul does many times, does not make me under the law. That law that made me guilty before faith came, now that same law is a witness to the righteousness that comes by faith, as it is written.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

I am without the law but the law is witness that I have the righteousness of God.

The law does not change we do or we don't Grace and faith change us.

We are the problem not the law as it is written:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

But when Christ comes and faith comes we are no longer carnal no longer a slave to sin and thus are made spiritual in Christ.



Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Amen. The problem hear is your personal definitions that do not line up with scripture.

 

[gotime]

Ps Brother Grandpa, I am still waiting for bible based reasons for your take on Carnal commandment. I can't see it in scripture and you have offered nothing in regards to it Yet.

 

[beta]

Ps Brother Grandpa, I am still waiting for bible based reasons for your take on Carnal commandment. I can't see it in scripture and you have offered nothing in regards to it Yet.

Friend, you will be waiting in vain to hear through the Spirit because the natural/disobedient/carnal man does not understand what you are saying.
When someone 'demotes what is 'holy to God they are placing 'themselves on a 'carnal level !

 

[Grandpa]

Ps Brother Grandpa, I am still waiting for bible based reasons for your take on Carnal commandment. I can't see it in scripture and you have offered nothing in regards to it Yet.

How will you understand when you don't even know what being under the law is??

Romans 7:14-25
[FONT=&quot]14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who will deliver you from this body of death? Not you. Not your work. Your work is carnal. Your understanding is carnal.

Galatians 5:16-25
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So you must walk in the spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you are trying to fulfill something by your own understanding and your own strength then you are using your carnal flesh and carnal understanding. The only way to walk in the spirit, to be delivered from this body of death, is to go to Christ and receive Rest. Abide in Christ and His Power and He will produce the Fruit of the Spirit which is the fulfillment of the spiritual law.

Galatians 3:1-14
[/FONT]
1 [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This should be readily evident to those who have come to Christ. I have no idea how someone who calls Christ Lord doesn't know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you just don't want to know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you sort of want Christ as Lord but you sort of want to work at the law too. I feel like I am just repeating the New Testament. Which apparently you don't understand.

The Just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


All of your carnal work at your carnal commandments is sin. It falls short of the mark. Why? Because the law is spiritual and there is only one way for you to be spiritual. Its not by your work. Its by the work of God. By faith...

Oh yeah, the law is not of faith, btw...[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

Friend, you will be waiting in vain to hear through the Spirit because the natural/disobedient/carnal man does not understand what you are saying.
When someone 'demotes what is 'holy to God they are placing 'themselves on a 'carnal level !

What's so hard to understand about taking saturdays off?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

do you understand we are not in a theocracy?

the civil, cerimonial, dietary laws of moses no longer apply

its why we dont stone gay people anymore
they were a chosen people meant to be an example
"set apart"



being gentiles we are to fufill the moral law placed in our hearts and the commandments in scripture

but Jesus clearly covered this

people arent seriously arguing about this are they?

 

[gotime]

How will you understand when you don't even know what being under the law is??

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who will deliver you from this body of death? Not you. Not your work. Your work is carnal. Your understanding is carnal.Brother This shows you have not yet grasped my position. Where have I said I am my own deliverer. This is again straw man arguments. For those who don't know what a straw man argument is. It is when someone sets up an argument that the other person does not even make and then shows it to be wrong. I know my work can not deliver me and thus do not think it can, thus the argument given here is not against me but a made up problem. Then you say my work is carnal and my understanding is carnal, But these again are just your words, you offer nothing in evidence form this.

Galatians 5:16-25

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So you must walk in the spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you are trying to fulfill something by your own understanding and your own strength then you are using your carnal flesh and carnal understanding. The only way to walk in the spirit, to be delivered from this body of death, is to go to Christ and receive Rest. Abide in Christ and His Power and He will produce the Fruit of the Spirit which is the fulfillment of the spiritual lawr thaUm yeah so whats the problem this is how it works. The problem seems to be hear that you think to keep the Sabbath goes against this, and you seem to base that of an idea you are unable to produce from the bible. It seems to me that you have set up some false wall of teaching that turns common sense into error. No wonder you fail to deal with Gen 2 and the laws picture of it. You have convinced yourself that its not wroth looking at because of your belief.

Galatians 3:1-14

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This should be readily evident to those who have come to Christ. I have no idea how someone who calls Christ Lord doesn't know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you just don't want to know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you sort of want Christ as Lord but you sort of want to work at the law too. I feel like I am just repeating the New Testament. Which apparently you don't understand.As far as the words carnal commandment you have not shown anything. At best I can tell you this the law was not of carnal origin and the 7th day was of divine origin. do you apply your view to everything or pick and chose? Cause if you don't kill physically then according to you you are trying to be saved by your own works. If you honour your mother and your father then you are preforming a carnal commandment and are trying to deliver yourself.

I am simply using your very own argument to conclude the above, Even baptism would be Carnal according to your view.

The Just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Agree with the above two sentences not sure how you think they apply, but going by what you have said its clear that you have some extra biblical doctrine that nullifies some of what the Bible says.


All of your carnal work at your carnal commandments is sin. It falls short of the mark. Why? Because the law is spiritual and there is only one way for you to be spiritual. Its not by your work. Its by the work of God. By faith..Again agree with this it is not at odds with my view.

Oh yeah, the law is not of faith, btw...

It seems clearer to me now what and where we clash, Its on what I deem to be your private added views concerning carnal commandments. it is clear that you can not demonstrate from scripture your view of a carnal commandment. Although it is clear that you think it is a bible teaching. And it seems that your view on it has put a veil over your heart to understand the old Testament and its connection to the new. Not in the same way the Jews had a veil over their hearts. You at least accept Jesus as Messiah and see how the law at least to some degree points to Jesus. Your belief has thrown common sense out of the window so that the bible does not mean what it says at least in the Old testament it seems. And this is because you seem to have taken new testament teachings and made them clash. As one will see if one goes over our posts, you do not address the questions I have asked concerning the carnal commandment, I suspect that it is because while it is clear in your mind what you believe it is not so clear in scripture.

It is also clear that you do not deal with "under the law" by the bible but by your own standard of which I have demonstrated is in error by the word of God which you did not address. I suspect it is because of your private view of carnal commandment that you read these other texts in light of that and thus the dominoes fall. but unfortunately in the wrong direction.

Ps this was not an attack, I am simply saying what I see as you have done, and I appreciate that Brother. Now that I see where we diverge I can see that quoting scripture will not change anything. It is amazing the human mind, we both see different things we both think we are right and we both think the other is wrong. Scripture then has to be our only safeguard. It seems to me that your view nullifies scripture and this is seen in your personal reasons for ignoring what the Old Testament says about the Sabbath. Satan has deceived you friend.

There are many different people around the world who do not believe in God and keep the last 6 commandments. There are many around the world who keep the first 3 who believe in God or a god or Gods. But there is only one left the 4th and it is the only commandment that shows the difference between the true God and false Gods. There is only one reason on earth that we have a 7 day week, there is only one reason on earth to acknowledge the 7th day is Holy, That one reason is Jesus Christ is our creator. That means you have to have faith that Gods word is true, you have to believe that Jesus is the creator just as the bible says, you have to believe that he made the 7th day Holy just as the bible says. you have to believe that it is a gift to humanity just as the bible says.

You have to have faith to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day. For aside from Christ and the creation there is no reason whatsoever to acknowledge the 7th day as a holy day of God.

The sign on earth that you are a follower of God is not a sign that pagans even follow/9 of the commandments. No it is the one that only finds its origin in Christ as creator. Many gods claim to have made the earth But only one set a seal on the creation by making a day holy. Its not works to enter into it, It is the very definition of resting in His work. It is the very premise of the Gospel to rest in His works. God made it holy not man. He blessed it not man. Will man ignore the work of God? you sit there and Call Gods divine work a carnal work. You say that we should not acknowledge it as if Gods work is nothing more than a human effort.

No Brother only those of faith will keep it.

 

[gotime]

Ps I will stop there, as long as scripture is ignored there is no reason to go on. and now that I can see the problem and how you have been tricked into ignoring scripture while thinking you are following it. There seems that there can be little fruit from continuing. Much love Brother and thank you again for your time.

 

[gotime]

For those reading this but not commenting, here is a difference I can see on this issue.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

When I read this I take it as it reads. I don't change it or dismiss it as nothing or some spiritual lesson only. I see that God finished his work of creation and then on the 7th day he rested from the work. I see that He then because of this blessed the very day itself and then He set it apart for Holy use/sanctified it. because he rested not because he needed a shadow in the future. It says plainly because of a finished work not a work to come.

But some have managed to gain a teaching of men that suggests that this does not mean what it says and thus we do not have to acknowledge it even if we believe in God.

in the early 1800's there was a name for people who did this, "spiritualizers" People who made the bible spiritual in a way that it did not mean what it said. If you think about that it leads to a dangerous place. The majority of Christian teachers do this today especially to the Sabbath.

But who do you think would want us to not acknowledge the work of God? Yes I believe it is the work of Satan to deceive the people of God so that they do not enter this finished work. There is a passage in Hebrews 4 that talks about this but many have twisted it to say the opposite of what it actually says.

If we begin to change the word of God by saying it does not mean what it says, context included of course. Then we will believe anything but the truth.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by Grandpa
How will you understand when you don't even know what being under the law is??

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who will deliver you from this body of death? Not you. Not your work. Your work is carnal. Your understanding is carnal.Brother This shows you have not yet grasped my position. Where have I said I am my own deliverer. This is again straw man arguments. For those who don't know what a straw man argument is. It is when someone sets up an argument that the other person does not even make and then shows it to be wrong. I know my work can not deliver me and thus do not think it can, thus the argument given here is not against me but a made up problem. Then you say my work is carnal and my understanding is carnal, But these again are just your words, you offer nothing in evidence form this.

Galatians 5:16-25

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So you must walk in the spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you are trying to fulfill something by your own understanding and your own strength then you are using your carnal flesh and carnal understanding. The only way to walk in the spirit, to be delivered from this body of death, is to go to Christ and receive Rest. Abide in Christ and His Power and He will produce the Fruit of the Spirit which is the fulfillment of the spiritual lawr thaUm yeah so whats the problem this is how it works. The problem seems to be hear that you think to keep the Sabbath goes against this, and you seem to base that of an idea you are unable to produce from the bible. It seems to me that you have set up some false wall of teaching that turns common sense into error. No wonder you fail to deal with Gen 2 and the laws picture of it. You have convinced yourself that its not wroth looking at because of your belief.

Galatians 3:1-14

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This should be readily evident to those who have come to Christ. I have no idea how someone who calls Christ Lord doesn't know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you just don't want to know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you sort of want Christ as Lord but you sort of want to work at the law too. I feel like I am just repeating the New Testament. Which apparently you don't understand.As far as the words carnal commandment you have not shown anything. At best I can tell you this the law was not of carnal origin and the 7th day was of divine origin. do you apply your view to everything or pick and chose? Cause if you don't kill physically then according to you you are trying to be saved by your own works. If you honour your mother and your father then you are preforming a carnal commandment and are trying to deliver yourself.

I am simply using your very own argument to conclude the above, Even baptism would be Carnal according to your view.

The Just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Agree with the above two sentences not sure how you think they apply, but going by what you have said its clear that you have some extra biblical doctrine that nullifies some of what the Bible says.


All of your carnal work at your carnal commandments is sin. It falls short of the mark. Why? Because the law is spiritual and there is only one way for you to be spiritual. Its not by your work. Its by the work of God. By faith..Again agree with this it is not at odds with my view.

Oh yeah, the law is not of faith, btw...

It seems clearer to me now what and where we clash, Its on what I deem to be your private added views concerning carnal commandments. it is clear that you can not demonstrate from scripture your view of a carnal commandment. Although it is clear that you think it is a bible teaching. And it seems that your view on it has put a veil over your heart to understand the old Testament and its connection to the new. Not in the same way the Jews had a veil over their hearts. You at least accept Jesus as Messiah and see how the law at least to some degree points to Jesus. Your belief has thrown common sense out of the window so that the bible does not mean what it says at least in the Old testament it seems. And this is because you seem to have taken new testament teachings and made them clash. As one will see if one goes over our posts, you do not address the questions I have asked concerning the carnal commandment, I suspect that it is because while it is clear in your mind what you believe it is not so clear in scripture.

It is also clear that you do not deal with "under the law" by the bible but by your own standard of which I have demonstrated is in error by the word of God which you did not address. I suspect it is because of your private view of carnal commandment that you read these other texts in light of that and thus the dominoes fall. but unfortunately in the wrong direction.

Ps this was not an attack, I am simply saying what I see as you have done, and I appreciate that Brother. Now that I see where we diverge I can see that quoting scripture will not change anything. It is amazing the human mind, we both see different things we both think we are right and we both think the other is wrong. Scripture then has to be our only safeguard. It seems to me that your view nullifies scripture and this is seen in your personal reasons for ignoring what the Old Testament says about the Sabbath. Satan has deceived you friend.

There are many different people around the world who do not believe in God and keep the last 6 commandments. There are many around the world who keep the first 3 who believe in God or a god or Gods. But there is only one left the 4th and it is the only commandment that shows the difference between the true God and false Gods. There is only one reason on earth that we have a 7 day week, there is only one reason on earth to acknowledge the 7th day is Holy, That one reason is Jesus Christ is our creator. That means you have to have faith that Gods word is true, you have to believe that Jesus is the creator just as the bible says, you have to believe that he made the 7th day Holy just as the bible says. you have to believe that it is a gift to humanity just as the bible says.

You have to have faith to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day. For aside from Christ and the creation there is no reason whatsoever to acknowledge the 7th day as a holy day of God.

The sign on earth that you are a follower of God is not a sign that pagans even follow/9 of the commandments. No it is the one that only finds its origin in Christ as creator. Many gods claim to have made the earth But only one set a seal on the creation by making a day holy. Its not works to enter into it, It is the very definition of resting in His work. It is the very premise of the Gospel to rest in His works. God made it holy not man. He blessed it not man. Will man ignore the work of God? you sit there and Call Gods divine work a carnal work. You say that we should not acknowledge it as if Gods work is nothing more than a human effort.

No Brother only those of faith will keep it.

The law is not of faith. That is in the bible.

Gods divine work is not a carnal work.

Your work is carnal work. Your understanding is carnal understanding.

Who will deliver you from this???


I suppose if you understood the scriptures that I posted there would be nothing left to explain.

The sign isn't working at the law. The sign on earth that you are a follower of God is Resting in Him.

Hebrews 4:9-10
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[gotime]

Originally Posted by Grandpa
How will you understand when you don't even know what being under the law is??

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who will deliver you from this body of death? Not you. Not your work. Your work is carnal. Your understanding is carnal.Brother This shows you have not yet grasped my position. Where have I said I am my own deliverer. This is again straw man arguments. For those who don't know what a straw man argument is. It is when someone sets up an argument that the other person does not even make and then shows it to be wrong. I know my work can not deliver me and thus do not think it can, thus the argument given here is not against me but a made up problem. Then you say my work is carnal and my understanding is carnal, But these again are just your words, you offer nothing in evidence form this.

Galatians 5:16-25

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. So you must walk in the spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you are trying to fulfill something by your own understanding and your own strength then you are using your carnal flesh and carnal understanding. The only way to walk in the spirit, to be delivered from this body of death, is to go to Christ and receive Rest. Abide in Christ and His Power and He will produce the Fruit of the Spirit which is the fulfillment of the spiritual lawr thaUm yeah so whats the problem this is how it works. The problem seems to be hear that you think to keep the Sabbath goes against this, and you seem to base that of an idea you are unable to produce from the bible. It seems to me that you have set up some false wall of teaching that turns common sense into error. No wonder you fail to deal with Gen 2 and the laws picture of it. You have convinced yourself that its not wroth looking at because of your belief.

Galatians 3:1-14

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This should be readily evident to those who have come to Christ. I have no idea how someone who calls Christ Lord doesn't know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you just don't want to know what a carnal commandment is. Unless you sort of want Christ as Lord but you sort of want to work at the law too. I feel like I am just repeating the New Testament. Which apparently you don't understand.As far as the words carnal commandment you have not shown anything. At best I can tell you this the law was not of carnal origin and the 7th day was of divine origin. do you apply your view to everything or pick and chose? Cause if you don't kill physically then according to you you are trying to be saved by your own works. If you honour your mother and your father then you are preforming a carnal commandment and are trying to deliver yourself.

I am simply using your very own argument to conclude the above, Even baptism would be Carnal according to your view.

The Just shall live by faith. The law is not of faith.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Agree with the above two sentences not sure how you think they apply, but going by what you have said its clear that you have some extra biblical doctrine that nullifies some of what the Bible says.


All of your carnal work at your carnal commandments is sin. It falls short of the mark. Why? Because the law is spiritual and there is only one way for you to be spiritual. Its not by your work. Its by the work of God. By faith..Again agree with this it is not at odds with my view.

Oh yeah, the law is not of faith, btw...


The law is not of faith. That is in the bible Agreed but you saying something I agree with suggests you still don't understand my position, yet you continue to speak as if you do understand my position. If you don't know what I believe then how can you speak against it?

Gods divine work is not a carnal work.Yes agreed I said that remember? The Sabbath is Gods work not mine.

Your work is carnal work. Your understanding is carnal understanding. Again you have demonstrated that you don't understand my position so you rally can't speak to what I do or don't do. This for me has been the problem, you don't seem to take note of what I say. you can't even define carnal work and yet you expect me to get your point. SO is it all right to do things as long as they don't line up with the law then? Cause that seems to be your problem with the Sabbath.

Who will deliver you from this? And again deliver me from what? you have yet to know or understand me so how do you know I need deliverance.


I suppose if you understood the scriptures that I posted there would be nothing left to explain.

The sign isn't working at the law. The sign on earth that you are a follower of God is Resting in Him.

Hebrews 4:9-10
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Blessings brother thank you again.

I am happy to continue if you want but we are going to have to address what the bible says. I agree with the texts above that is not the issue its how you and I use them that is the issue. So if we are not going to explain ourselves then we are wasting time and going nowhere.

Do you not understand that when you quote those scriptures you come to them with a different angle than I do? SO then it is important to not just quote but explain and show context to support that you have rightly divided the word of truth.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you can't explain those texts by showing their context then you don't know them. When you use one text to nullify another then you have missused scripture.

I would be quite happy to address any text you would like and discuss it within its context and wider biblical context but I wont right now because every time I have done that it has been passed by as if it never happened. For example under the law, you use that term but do not address it in the bible. I did and you said nothing about it to refute it in any way. Which leaves me to believe that you can't so you ignore it.

Right or wrong if you leave me there I can not accept that you have a clear understanding Of Scripture. All I am after is a honest focused look at scripture without assuming the other knows what it means.

 

[gotime]

Maybe I should explained better, If we are going to have an intelligent discussion together on this or any topic then we must address the texts being used to support our position.

So when you say Carnal commandment you must define it for intelligent discussion and understanding to come from it. Don't assume everyone see it like you do.

If you are going to use a text to prove a point, I will address it if I see that you have misused it. But you can't just ignore that you must demonstrate that I am in error concerning that text and this must be done by the word of God.

For example "under the law" we both obviously see that differently so we must make our case on the meaning of that term from the bible. assuming the other knows it or should understand it is childish and obviously not the case or else we would agree.

I tried to show you from Paul's writings in Romans why I see it the way I do and you have not replied to that with scripture and explanation at all.

Until we do this we will go around in circles getting no where. So If you are not interested in having your view tested by scripture then drop out now. If you can't be bothered then drop out now.

I am willing but it has to be done honestly not jumping hear there and everywhere and assuming what should be known. This is showing care for one another. When we love each other we make the effort to deal with each other in an open and honest way.

I am not saying you are nasty or anything like that. But so far our conversation is a bit one sided, I try to address and explain myself via scripture and explanation but you don't.

I am easy mate, I can keep going or leave it, But as it stands we have to slow down and work in the areas we differ and examine if we have rightly divided the word of truth.

 

[Grandpa]

Maybe I should explained better, If we are going to have an intelligent discussion together on this or any topic then we must address the texts being used to support our position.

So when you say Carnal commandment you must define it for intelligent discussion and understanding to come from it. Don't assume everyone see it like you do.

If you are going to use a text to prove a point, I will address it if I see that you have misused it. But you can't just ignore that you must demonstrate that I am in error concerning that text and this must be done by the word of God.

For example "under the law" we both obviously see that differently so we must make our case on the meaning of that term from the bible. assuming the other knows it or should understand it is childish and obviously not the case or else we would agree.

I tried to show you from Paul's writings in Romans why I see it the way I do and you have not replied to that with scripture and explanation at all.

Until we do this we will go around in circles getting no where. So If you are not interested in having your view tested by scripture then drop out now. If you can't be bothered then drop out now.

I am willing but it has to be done honestly not jumping hear there and everywhere and assuming what should be known. This is showing care for one another. When we love each other we make the effort to deal with each other in an open and honest way.

I am not saying you are nasty or anything like that. But so far our conversation is a bit one sided, I try to address and explain myself via scripture and explanation but you don't.

I am easy mate, I can keep going or leave it, But as it stands we have to slow down and work in the areas we differ and examine if we have rightly divided the word of truth.

Ok, fair enough. Let's start with understanding of basic scriptures.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[FONT=&quot]14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

There is a vail over the mind for some people who read the OT. This vail causes them to continue in their carnal understanding and strength turning the Spiritual Law into a Carnal Commandment.

Why do they do this? Because they read the OT and think they are commandments that they must work at and fulfill. That is the vail.

But this vail over the mind comes off when a person comes to Christ. Not when a person "says" they aren't under the law. When a person actually comes to Christ and receives Rest.

We should stay here in 2 Corinthians 3 for awhile because there are a few really important points.

If you look back to the OT and see something that you must 'keep' or work at or 'observe' in your own understanding and strength then the vail is still over your mind.

We can't take this vail off by reasoning with each other. We will constantly be at odds over what the scripture says and what it means. The vail only comes off when a person comes to Christ and receives the gift of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now your turn. What do those scriptures mean?[/FONT]