J
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J
JoDel
Guest
We don't need to live by the moral code in the law of Moses which says in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with a animal. The law of Christ Himself , the law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop this.
People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.
We do have laws in the New Covenant.
They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us. Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.
Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.
We do have laws in the New Covenant.
They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us. Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.
Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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If you think that Jesus was blindly advocating following the law then you read a different Bible to me.
Yes Jesus does confirm that COMPLETE adherence to the Law will bring righteousness before the Law (you mentioned Matt 5:19), however Jesus spends an enormous amount of time (and Matthew, of all the Gospel writers, highlights this the most) redefining what the law should be - He is most definitely NOT affirming Mosaic Law.
Your quote of Matt 12:8 is somewhat ironic because Jesus was in COMPLETE contravention of the Mosaic definition of honouring the Sabbath. That verse could be paraphrased very simply, Jesus is saying "I make the rules now!"
My suggestion to you is to carefully read the Gospel of Matthew and what you will find at every turn, in response to queries and challenges from various sources, Jesus redefines and abrogates Mosaic Law - He is not endorsing Mosaic Law.
This whole process culminates in His prediction of the destruction of the Temple, His altercation in the Temple with the money-changers, and His trial and subsequent execution.
I have heard several very poor explanations of Jesus' actions in driving out the money-changers, but the bottom-line is that without the money-changers the Temple could not function. Jesus was not accusing the money-changers specifically of wrong-doing He was actually challenging the ENTIRE system of worship.
Make no mistake - this challenge was precisely and exactly understood by the Sanhedrin - and their response was completely understandable in the light of that challenge to Judaism, its way of life, and its spiritual values and way of worship!
I think if you read the whole thread you will get a better idea of what is happening here..... no matter how many times someone tries to repeat the same old things does not make it true...... The things that are being said now have already been answered throughout the thread but ignored. Its an interesting read though. However I did get a headache afterwards 
God bless you all
God bless you all
The amount of twisting and perversion of the word that has to happen to make this:
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
,mean anything except what it says. And then take this:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
,and do the same.
There is not a single scripture that teaches that the 7th day that God blessed and sanctified before sin is just a spiritual lesson. Granted there is a lesson in it, but it is also a day blessed and made holy by God.
And yet people will actually come on here and say that it does not mean what it says. amazing. Still mind boggles me.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
,mean anything except what it says. And then take this:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
,and do the same.
There is not a single scripture that teaches that the 7th day that God blessed and sanctified before sin is just a spiritual lesson. Granted there is a lesson in it, but it is also a day blessed and made holy by God.
And yet people will actually come on here and say that it does not mean what it says. amazing. Still mind boggles me.
Lets just read scripture as it states:
So here is the new covenant:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Now notice where Hebrews gets this from:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So now simple question according to these verses and taking into account their context, eg, Who is Jeremiah sent to tell these words? why?
Then ask yourself honestly, when it says: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;"
What is the law being spoken of here?
So here is the new covenant:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Now notice where Hebrews gets this from:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So now simple question according to these verses and taking into account their context, eg, Who is Jeremiah sent to tell these words? why?
Then ask yourself honestly, when it says: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;"
What is the law being spoken of here?
Many people think the New testament is also separate from the Old testament writings. However, if you read the Word of God correctly you will see that everything in the New Testament has already come and was in the Old Testament writings
Hi GraceNpeace,
I hope you don’t mind me having a say here. I know I am a little late but I find the topic interesting.
For me I do not think Jesus blindly advocates anything. If he tells us to do something we must believe Him and follow Him it is that simple really. Jesus advocated salvation is from sin and that he saves us from sin and that sin is transgression of God's Law (John 8:34, Rom 6:23). This is expressed in the new covenant….
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matt 5:17) He came to fulfill His Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind/sinful nature) which is the new covenant of Jesus writing His Laws in our hearts, as we believe His Words, God changes us, so we can follow Him.....
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Heb 8:10, 10:16 quoting from the Old Testament in Jer 31:30-34)
Jesus did indeed spend a lot of time redefining what the Law means and how it should be applied. However, he was not in contravention of the mosaic laws (sacrificial, ceremonial and civil) which are separate to God’s Law (the 10 commandments). I think what you mean however is that Jesus was opposed to the Jewish interpretation of how to keep God’s Laws. Jesus always makes the rules. Mankind twist its interpretation helped by the rulers of darkness and powers of this world.
“For we wrestle not against flesh3 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual4 wickedness in high5 places.” (Eph 6:12)
God bless you
I hope you don’t mind me having a say here. I know I am a little late but I find the topic interesting.
For me I do not think Jesus blindly advocates anything. If he tells us to do something we must believe Him and follow Him it is that simple really. Jesus advocated salvation is from sin and that he saves us from sin and that sin is transgression of God's Law (John 8:34, Rom 6:23). This is expressed in the new covenant….
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matt 5:17) He came to fulfill His Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind/sinful nature) which is the new covenant of Jesus writing His Laws in our hearts, as we believe His Words, God changes us, so we can follow Him.....
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Heb 8:10, 10:16 quoting from the Old Testament in Jer 31:30-34)
Jesus did indeed spend a lot of time redefining what the Law means and how it should be applied. However, he was not in contravention of the mosaic laws (sacrificial, ceremonial and civil) which are separate to God’s Law (the 10 commandments). I think what you mean however is that Jesus was opposed to the Jewish interpretation of how to keep God’s Laws. Jesus always makes the rules. Mankind twist its interpretation helped by the rulers of darkness and powers of this world.
“For we wrestle not against flesh3 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual4 wickedness in high5 places.” (Eph 6:12)
God bless you
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For those that keep God's Sabbath... Happy Sabbath to you as well........point is its great we all can worship God. Everyone is at a different stage of their walk with Jesus......... Just remember everyone...
For we wrestle not against flesh3 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual4 wickedness in high5 places.” (Eph 6:12)
God loves us all, but if you want a closer walk with Jesus we need to follow Him. If we follow Him his promises will come true if we believe him...
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phi 1:6)
God bless you
For we wrestle not against flesh3 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual4 wickedness in high5 places.” (Eph 6:12)
God loves us all, but if you want a closer walk with Jesus we need to follow Him. If we follow Him his promises will come true if we believe him...
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phi 1:6)
God bless you
Do you keep the Sabbath as outlined in the law of Moses?
Jesus also said to the young ruler who asked Him "What must I do to inherit eternal life?".
Jesus gave him the law of Moses because that is what covenant he was under at the time. This revealed the truth that the ruler had broken the very 1st commandment and had money as his "god".
Do, we tell people today that they need to keep the law of Moses in order to be saved? Of course not - in the "New Covenant" - this is the answer we are supposed to give to people.
Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Good Posts my friend , well thought out and understood ! it all comes with Obedience !
Matthew 11:28 [FONT="]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[/FONT]
Its not some secret knowledge you say?
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[FONT="]14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Its not a secret to Christians who have come to Christ and received Rest. But to everyone who is still working at the law it definitely is still hidden.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Its no problem to work at the law if you are following Judaism. But if you are going to try to be a Christian you can't work at the law anymore.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Go ahead and do whatever you think is right. But if you call yourself Christian you have no excuse to go back to the yoke of bondage, your vain attempt at working at the law.
[/FONT]
Its not some secret knowledge you say?
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[FONT="]14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Its not a secret to Christians who have come to Christ and received Rest. But to everyone who is still working at the law it definitely is still hidden.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Its no problem to work at the law if you are following Judaism. But if you are going to try to be a Christian you can't work at the law anymore.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Go ahead and do whatever you think is right. But if you call yourself Christian you have no excuse to go back to the yoke of bondage, your vain attempt at working at the law.
[/FONT]
Hi Grandpa, so nice to meet you here. I know I am a little late in reading this thread I think mostly everything has been answered already as there seems to be a lot of repetition at this point forward. Hope you do not mind me commenting on your post.
May I ask do you know the difference between the law of Moses and the Law of God?
What was done away at the cross and what is forever?
What is the new covenant?
Of those that posted earlier can you tell me who you think believes they are saved by the works of the Law?
After reading the whole thread recently I don't think your posts above are relevant. Maybe its me sometimes I am slow. Seems to me your interpretation of scripture above needs a bit more thought that is the only reason I provided the questions above.
God bless you
GOOD Questions and very relevant ! But since you asked Grandpa we must let him answer.
J
joefizz
Guest
Yahn it is 4 am,me reading most of this thread,glad I did,reminds me why I love serving God,and how thankful I am to the holy spirit to help me to answer such tough questions,so this one is about "The Sabbath" first off there are two "Sabbaths" biblically,the seventh day of the week,and the 50th year,the year long "Sabbath" both referring to resting from work such as tilling the ground etc,on a certain day or year,just felt I'd point that out since I didn't see it mentioned,though "The Sabbath" in question here is the seventh day of the week,rightfully so,being the day God rested,as well as that it was a gift,to all,though yes enforced as a statute by God to obey in the time of Moses which not following resulted in death,yes even if a person were to be picking up sticks on the sabbath,and though today the result is not death from not following to "remember it and keep it holy" it is written"jesus did not come to abolish the law,but to Fulfill it,as in,make true all the predictions of God's prophets,and completing the list of all commandments and statutes and sayings,to be remembered and followed,yet many argue over trivial things such as this,"The Day" of the Sabbath,as many have pointed out,jesus said"the sabbath was made for man,not man for the sabbath" as in,The Sabbath is A gift from God to Man,not simply a statute to follow but rather,a resting time given out of love and understanding,for God too rested,after his works,so he had compassion on us and gave us it,but did you ever think that God was so strict about The Sabbath because he didn't want us to over exhaust ourselves,because if you read in the books of Moses the people of Israel would have worked without rest had God not made "The Sabbath",and the important question here should not be what mere "Day" "The Sabbath" is but rather,which seventh day of your week can you keep holy,for that is "Your Sabbath Day" each week,so long as you remember it and keep it holy as best you can,true there are none good nor perfect no not one,but Jesus's grace is sufficient for you,so simply do what you can for God,and also as pertaining to sacrifices,wine,and not eating certain meats,"jesus died for us and we whom accept him as savior,have no need to sacrifice animals,besides it is written"Behold,to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams."as in if you are sacrificing to try to please God,it is far better to "obey"God and Do for God correctly,not decide well this feels right so it is right,seek out God first,then read the bible alongside the holy spirit,so you "learn" and "know" what is more "important" to God,as for wine or any willy nilly drinking to "supposedly" appreciate Jesus,nowhere in the bible is it written that Jesus approves of drunkards nor that do so is some grand thing,yes in Jesus's passover with his disciples he indeed had them break bread and drink wine in representation of Jesus's body and blood that was to be later broken and shed for "ALL" ,but he never said for anyone to become drunkards through wine or the like in remembrance of him,and lastly,it is written concerning meats as well as people in acts"what the lord has cleansed,thou callest that not common" so please understand that God reguarding all these matters,wishes for "us" his children to understand that he expects us to learn "truth" not "a truth" suppose either saturday or sunday were the only days God condoned for "rest" what then? should it be understood that we care more for the "truth" of a mere day than God whom established " a day" out of thousands upon thousands of days for our sakes not for mere "ceremony" God forbid,for when we lose ourselves to "anger" and "riddles" We turn from walking with God,to walking against God no matter the "petty" result,which is far more to be feared and held in importance than a mere day for only God can destroy both "Body" and "Soul" so before you take up arms,for "quote" God be sure the holy spirit is leading you to do so,so you actually serve God faithfully and honestly,because wisdom is what you make it,and the tongue is venomous and unruly,so exercise patience and silence "before" you speak so you can actually be "guided" by God and not yourself,for in such a manner are we as blind leading the blind,thus shall we surely fall into the ditch together,when we act on "anger" alongside "tradition" not "Truth,leaving ourselves vulnerable to be ensnared and confounded by the devil,So "Know" what is of use and importance to God,then you can "learn" what God "truly" seeks you to do for him,not argue over who's way is better,for"as for God's way,his way is perfect"!
The Law written on stones is the Law of Moses.
Nothing was actually done away. Everything is in full force until you come to Christ.
Matthew 11:28 [FONT="]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/FONT]That's the cornerstone of it, ironically enough.
All of the ones who think they still have to work at it.
Galatians 3:19,23
19 [FONT="]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[/FONT]23 [FONT="]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
Thats because you think its perfectly fine to work at the law. In fact you think its your duty. You must not understand the scriptures that are posted. They seem really straightforward to me.
Thanks. God bless you too
Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
I would think these verses are highly relevant. Have you ever thought about the situation you place yourself into?
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
If these scriptures don't tell you about your error maybe Acts 15 is more straightforward. Or Hebrews 7. Or 2 Corinthians 3. Or Hebrews 4. Or Galatians 2.[/FONT]
wait, God gave Moses Law that wasn't God's Law??
the Law is spiritual, and good. it's God's Law. all of it.
not to be confused with the Gospel.
