(ritual) circumcisions today

[disciplemike]

There is ZERO indication that Christians are still to follow Mosaic law. In fact, there are multiple scriptures that warn AGAINST trying to keep the old law.

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:19 (ESV2011, MBM)


And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:23 (ESV2011, MBM)

But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Matthew 4:4 (ESV2011, MBM)

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2 Peter 3:17 (ESV2011, MBM)

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Revelation 14:12 (ESV2011, MBM)

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV2011, MBM) [[No New Testament when this epistle was written]]

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:16 (KJV, MBM)

For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverbs 4:2 (KJV, MBM)

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:3 (KJV, MBM)













And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’Matthew 7:23 (ESV2011, MBM)

 

[Dan_473]

outta context, i know.
but think about it: spiritually, by analogy, there's context here.

All the men who went out of the city gate agreed with Hamor and his son Shechem, and every male in the city was circumcised.
Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male.
(Genesis 34:24-25)​

fornicators. rapists. adulterers. idolaters.
believing by circumcising the flesh they would be accepted & justified.
for the purpose of their lusts.
deceived.
seeking to preserve their lives, they found death.

do you see what i see?

posthuman,

on the other thread you compared Hebrew Roots folks with Judaizers...

I had thought that was a little harsh...

now, hearing that they promote circumcision for adult male believers, I totally agree...

they are in the shoes of the people that Paul wrote Galatians against

 

[TrailofTruth]

What matters is the keeping of the commandments of God and the circumcision of the heart(Which comes first). Circumcision is not done away with and is part of the conversion process back into obedience for those who have lived as pagans or in disobedience. The way you commit spiritual adultery is by giving yourself over the the flesh and doctrines of demons which is what is contrary to God and he's law. If you are to understand Romans 7:1-4 you must know the law, as Paul is saying (I speak to those who know the law). It is talking about the house of Israel being free to marry again (in Christ) since He has died and then resurrected(If the husband be dead, you are free to marry again). Saying that obeying the law of God after receiving Christ is spiritual adultery is a very gross and ungodly doctrine. If I was the be the devils advocate that is exactly what I would want people to believe.

The commandments of God were kept physically in the Old Testament, and spiritually in the New Testament. For example, they sacrificed a physically perfect lamb, (which never saved anyone), but now a spiritually perfect Lamb (of God) has been sacrificed once for all, which does cleanse sin instead of just postponing it. His blood covers everyone who obeyed God in their life. So we no longer sacrifice physical lambs- which was part of the old law. Please understand that the old law and the new law are the exact same law of God. No one is getting rid of God's law, however, the physical way of doing it was nailed to the cross by Christ. Under Christ, love fulfills the same law of the prophets- if you truly love God and your neighbor, you will not steal or murder.

The old law was only a shadow of the real one to come, which is now here. The reality is found in Christ. It's like this, if you put a wooden cross by a wall and shined a light on it, it's shadow would appear on the wall. Both would be in the shape of a cross, but which one is the reality? Not the shadow, but the actual. Now take the cross away from the wall so that the shadow disappears, does that mean the cross no longer exists? No, the real cross still exists. In the same way, the law of Moses no longer exists, but the real law of God is in effect.

Paul was speaking to men who know the law of Moses, but he said we now belong to another- to Christ. We no longer belong to Moses. God Himself showed us this on the mount of transfiguration. Christ stood with Moses and Elijah, when a cloud covered up Moses and Elijah, leaving only Christ to be seen. Then a voice from heaven said, "This (singular not plural) is My Son, listen to Him!" God no longer wants us to listen to the law and the prophets, but only to His Son. In Matthew 28:18 ALL authority, in heaven and on earth, was given to Christ. That leaves no authority for anyone else.

Hope this helps. I remember when my eyes were opened to this.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

posthuman,

on the other thread you compared Hebrew Roots folks with Judaizers...

I had thought that was a little harsh...

now, hearing that they promote circumcision for adult male believers, I totally agree...

they are in the shoes of the people that Paul wrote Galatians against

Just because one is for obeying the holy law of God in liberty after Jesus Christ has set (He's people from the house of Isreal) free from the curse the law and (everyone) from the law of sin and death, does not make one in the same shoes as the circumcision judaizer pharisee hypocrite party and nomination. It does not mean one thinks he is a priest and goes about slaughtering animals for sin either.

What is so offensive about circumcision ? Think about it, how many muslims does not practice this in obedience to their faith ? And how many jews ? Or even cultures and tribes all around the world. Yet when it comes to the faith of the bible which is where it actually belongs then it becomes such a heresy. I get it, the thought of male adult circumcision may be a little tough, but it is very easy and fast to get done and you can even do it without pain. If the world without faith can do it, then where does that put those who are of the faith of God? Does it save you ? No. Is it a form of obedience which comes from the heart because of faith in God ? Then that is to answer God with a good conscience.

Do we make void the law of God because of grace ? No. Rather we establish it.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

The commandments of God were kept physically in the Old Testament, and spiritually in the New Testament. For example, they sacrificed a physically perfect lamb, (which never saved anyone), but now a spiritually perfect Lamb (of God) has been sacrificed once for all, which does cleanse sin instead of just postponing it. His blood covers everyone who obeyed God in their life. So we no longer sacrifice physical lambs- which was part of the old law. Please understand that the old law and the new law are the exact same law of God. No one is getting rid of God's law, however, the physical way of doing it was nailed to the cross by Christ. Under Christ, love fulfills the same law of the prophets- if you truly love God and your neighbor, you will not steal or murder.

The old law was only a shadow of the real one to come, which is now here. The reality is found in Christ. It's like this, if you put a wooden cross by a wall and shined a light on it, it's shadow would appear on the wall. Both would be in the shape of a cross, but which one is the reality? Not the shadow, but the actual. Now take the cross away from the wall so that the shadow disappears, does that mean the cross no longer exists? No, the real cross still exists. In the same way, the law of Moses no longer exists, but the real law of God is in effect.

Paul was speaking to men who know the law of Moses, but he said we now belong to another- to Christ. We no longer belong to Moses. God Himself showed us this on the mount of transfiguration. Christ stood with Moses and Elijah, when a cloud covered up Moses and Elijah, leaving only Christ to be seen. Then a voice from heaven said, "This (singular not plural) is My Son, listen to Him!" God no longer wants us to listen to the law and the prophets, but only to His Son. In Matthew 28:18 ALL authority, in heaven and on earth, was given to Christ. That leaves no authority for anyone else.

Hope this helps. I remember when my eyes were opened to this.

I agree. Tho God Still wants us to listen to He's law as it contains the commandments we are to walk in, but through Christ as the perfect sacrifice as you said. Same with the prophets, they prophesied the coming of Christ and He's work, which has come to pass. They also prophesied things which have not come to pass. Unless you were a Levitical priest you never even had to worry about the sacrificial part except providing the animal to the priest so he could do everything for you. So the law is pretty much the same as you said. The priesthood is changed in the new covenant, but what was actually nailed to the cross(tree) was the ordinances written down which was against Israel (The curses, adultery, divorcement), and the law of sin and death once one have received Christ and is converted and walks in newness of life.

"God no longer wants us to listen to the law and the prophets, but only to His Son." (Quote)

 

[tanakh]

The real circumcision is that of the heart. God accepted Abraham because of his faith not through circumcision. I am becoming more convinced that this Messianic/Jewish roots movement is a kind of Trojan Horse aimed at placing Christians
under the bondage of the law. People who opt for this are neither fully Jewish or fully Christian. If the Church as a whole was meant to continue to follow first century Judaism the Holy Spirit would have clearly indicated it during the Pauls meeting with the church in Acts not wait for 2000 years to ''reveal'' it.

 

[posthuman]

posthuman,

on the other thread you compared Hebrew Roots folks with Judaizers...

I had thought that was a little harsh...

now, hearing that they promote circumcision for adult male believers, I totally agree...

they are in the shoes of the people that Paul wrote Galatians against

See how much Paul struggled with them, because of how 'reasonable' their cause was!
Many of the believers were Jews, or Gentiles who had already believed the God of Abraham, the One True and Living God, so for devout Jews to come after, and say that 'of course' you must follow what had been the law of God, under the covenant He had made with those people that He chose to bear His name, how logical this must have seemed!

Today too, doesn't it seem so reasonable, and so easy to make the case -- how they can quote so many scriptures given to the people of the old covenant! And how true it is, that we should not be 'lawless' but have a good conscience. God does not change; surely we must also keep all the things He had given to the people He first chose to bear His name, since we have been chosen to bear His name now?

It is never the 'obvious' wrong doctrine that we need to 'be careful' of; only the simple are deceived by such things. Thank God that a modicum of discernment is common to ((almost)) everyone! But it is the crafty deception that is hard to discern, that we have to 'beware.'

The false teachings that are built up on subtly misquoting, or misrepresenting scripture are the ones that are so appealing. By leaving just a bit out, or forgetting just some context. His sheep know His voice -- and when you can build up some scheme by quoting scripture, my but doesn't it sound like His voice!

 

[posthuman]

The real circumcision is that of the heart. God accepted Abraham because of his faith not through circumcision. I am becoming more convinced that this Messianic/Jewish roots movement is a kind of Trojan Horse aimed at placing Christians
under the bondage of the law. People who opt for this are neither fully Jewish or fully Christian. If the Church as a whole was meant to continue to follow first century Judaism the Holy Spirit would have clearly indicated it during the Pauls meeting with the church in Acts not wait for 2000 years to ''reveal'' it.

why would the Holy Ghost have made sure that we have the epistle to the Galatians to teach us, if it wasn't useful to us?

 

[breno785au]

The real circumcision is that of the heart.

And so very glad I am that it is!

 

[disciplemike]

one thing to keep in mind about circumcision - It is a sign!
Whether you are talking about physical circumcision, which was a sign between God and Abraham,
or,
circumcision of the heart, which is also a sign between God and the circumcised (of heart).
This is why Paul and Peter were so adamant that physical circumcison is not required to be "saved".

When they both saw, with their own eyes, that God's Ruach HaKodesh came upon new (physically uncircumcised) believers,
they understood this fact - that if God will place His Spirit within a person, all the requirements for salvation have been met.

Surely no wise person would argue with God about where He chooses to place His Ruach HaKodesh.
So, I would say that the sign did change, from that of the flesh to that of the heart, but like it or not, circumcision is required!
It is a sign! God's sign!

 

[thomato]

nobody goes near to 'it' with a knife and lives I say

 

[Dan_473]

Just because one is for obeying the holy law of God in liberty after Jesus Christ has set (He's people from the house of Isreal) free from the curse the law and (everyone) from the law of sin and death, does not make one in the same shoes as the circumcision judaizer pharisee hypocrite party and nomination. It does not mean one thinks he is a priest and goes about slaughtering animals for sin either.

What is so offensive about circumcision ? Think about it, how many muslims does not practice this in obedience to their faith ? And how many jews ? Or even cultures and tribes all around the world. Yet when it comes to the faith of the bible which is where it actually belongs then it becomes such a heresy. I get it, the thought of male adult circumcision may be a little tough, but it is very easy and fast to get done and you can even do it without pain. If the world without faith can do it, then where does that put those who are of the faith of God? Does it save you ? No. Is it a form of obedience which comes from the heart because of faith in God ? Then that is to answer God with a good conscience.

Do we make void the law of God because of grace ? No. Rather we establish it.

the idea that a person begins with faith in Christ, then is completed by circumcision,

is false.

 

[Grace777x70]

the idea that a person begins with faith in Christ, then is completed by circumcision,

is false.

Amen...well said Dan - And this applies to any Old Covenant law as well. A little leaven of the Law will ruin our walk with the Lord Jesus. Trying to live by the Law is anti-Christ in it's belief system. We live by the life of Christ in us in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

We read the Old Covenant to see Jesus in it and that He has fulfilled it all and we are in Him now joined as one spirit.

It's not blatant sin that we have to watch out for - it's the "law-keepers" that try to bring in the Old Covenant Laws for Christians to live by. It's makes the grace of Christ of no effect in us.

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Anything we try to get from the Law of Moses separates us from the grace of Christ - including circumcision. The Law is NOT of faith - and the just shall live by faith.

Galatians 5:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[Dan_473]

I am sorry to say but you have not understood the context of Paul in the NT regarding the law. For every person who are babes in the Word (especially the law and the prophets) that go out to seek out what Paul is saying on their own always falls into the trap that we don't need to obey God's law. Paul does not have this position, and he did not teach it. But to the person who don't know the law and the prophets very well it seems to say that every time. Which is not at all surprising because that is the logical conclusion of the matter if taken in an isolated state from the rest of the word of the bible.

the original gentile readers of, say, Galatians and Corinthians had some knowledge of the law, but probably weren't experts.



the idea that a person needs to be an expert in the law and the prophets to understand Galatians

is false

 

[lastofall]

Talk about an entirely different idea from a version, and beside that, the previous verse needs to be with it:
"And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you." (Galatians 5:11-12)
The Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through the Apostle Paul is not saying anything close to saying that they should go all the way and emasculate themselves, rather He is simply saying they should be stopped from troubling the brethren at Galatia, nothing more.
[for me anyway] This is how this matter is meant: notwithstanding of course any may use whatsoever version they will, and shall also learn the view and idea according that version. So be it.

 

[lastofall]

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." (1 Corithians 7:19)

 

[simplifiedtruth]

the original gentile readers of, say, Galatians and Corinthians had some knowledge of the law, but probably weren't experts.



the idea that a person needs to be an expert in the law and the prophets to understand Galatians

is false

Just as Paul mentioned "I speak to those who know the law" (Romans 7:1), and Peter warning the saints in one of he's letters that in Paul's letters there are some things which are hard to understand, who those who are unstable and unlearned twist to their own destruction, as they do the scripture also. You therefore, seeing that you already know these things, beware so that not you also are led away with the error of the lawless and thereby fall from your secure position.


2 Peter 3:14

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

The conclusion is yes, you do need a general good knowledge of the scriptures in order to understand Paul's letters(Which was not originally intended of being written to you today personally) but to the people he was writing to at that time with their problems and understanding at mind.

You cannot read the front of a book and expect to understand the story of it. It does not say you have to be an expert either.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Talk about an entirely different idea from a version, and beside that, the previous verse needs to be with it:
"And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you." (Galatians 5:11-12)
The Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through the Apostle Paul is not saying anything close to saying that they should go all the way and emasculate themselves, rather He is simply saying they should be stopped from troubling the brethren at Galatia, nothing more.
[for me anyway] This is how this matter is meant: notwithstanding of course any may use whatsoever version they will, and shall also learn the view and idea according that version. So be it.

How do you "preach circumcision" ? It was the Phariseical party of the day. This "Circumcision" or if you were not of the "Circumcision" is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is.

 

[Dan_473]

Just as Paul mentioned "I speak to those who know the law" (Romans 7:1), and Peter warning the saints in one of he's letters that in Paul's letters there are some things which are hard to understand, who those who are unstable and unlearned twist to their own destruction, as they do the scripture also. You therefore, seeing that you already know these things, beware so that not you also are led away with the error of the lawless and thereby fall from your secure position.


2 Peter 3:14

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

The conclusion is yes, you do need a general good knowledge of the scriptures in order to understand Paul's letters(Which was not originally intended of being written to you today personally) but to the people he was writing to at that time with their problems and understanding at mind.

You cannot read the front of a book and expect to understand the story of it. It does not say you have to be an expert either.

right, Paul is writing to those with some level of law knowledge... but not experts


the vast majority of people with basic bible knowledge who read Galatians come away thinking Christians shouldn't get circumcised to gain points with God...


which is probably what the Galatians thought, too

 

[Dan_473]

so... *if* circumcision is needed to complete a Christian, what do women do?

is it enough if they try to make sure all the men in their lives are circumcised?