Revelation 17:8

[iamsoandso]

Did this beast receive it's deadly wound prior to the Revelation being given to John and it's writing according to the angel? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17.htm

 

[iamsoandso]

@Live4Him

 

[Live4Him]

In this post, I will seek to explain, by allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, what I personally believe to be one of the most precisely foretold and already fulfilled prophecies in scripture in relation to the Vatican/the Papacy being the literal kingdom of antichrist.

As I trust you already know, in Bible prophecy, a “beast” is representative of a “king” and its “kingdom”.

For example, we read:

“These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.” (Dan. 7:17)

Again:

“Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.” (Dan. 7:23)

“The first beast” or first kingdom of Revelation chapter 13 and the "beast” or kingdom of Revelation chapter 17 are one and the same.

For example, we read:

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, HAVING SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS, and upon his horns ten crowns, AND UPON HIS HEADS THE NAME OF BLASPHEMY.” (Rev. 13:1)

“So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, FULL OF NAMES OF BLASPHEMY, HAVING SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS.” (Rev. 17:3)

Both “beasts” or kingdoms have “seven heads and ten horns”, and both “beasts” or kingdoms are “full of names of blasphemy” because they are one and the same.

With such in mind, I’d like for you to please consider the following prophecy concerning this “beast” and its “deadly wound” which “was healed”.

We read of the same three times in Revelation chapter 13 in the following passages of scripture:

“And I SAW ONE OF HIS HEADS AS IT WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; AND HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after the beast.” (Rev. 13:3)

“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of THE FIRST BEAST BEFORE HIM, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship THE FIRST BEAST, WHOSE DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to THE BEAST, WHICH HAD THE WOUND BY A SWORD, AND DID LIVE.” (Rev. 13:11-14)

The reason that I began by showing that “the first beast” or first kingdom of Revelation chapter 13 and “the beast” or kingdom of Revelation chapter 17 are one and the same is because the prophecy actually states that “one of his heads” (Rev. 13:3) or one of his “seven heads” (Rev. 13:1, 17:3) would be “wounded to death” (Rev. 13:3) at some point in history only to be “healed” (Rev. 13:3, 12) or to "live" (Rev. 13:14) again at a later point in history.

I don’t know about your background, but I was always wrongly taught that this “head” would be some sort of head of state or world ruler who would apparently be killed and then raised from the dead in a manner that would mimic the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

In reality, that teaching, as popular as it is in many churches or in what one might rightly call "mainstream Christianity", simply isn’t true as these “seven heads” in no way, shape or form are representative of heads of state or anything even remotely related to the same.

Well, what do these “seven heads” actually represent?

We read:

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath THE SEVEN HEADS and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. THE SEVEN HEADS ARE SEVEN MOUNTAINS, on which the woman sitteth.” (Rev. 17:7-9)

According to the angel with whom John spoke, “the seven heads are seven mountains” or “seven hills”.

The underlying Greek word "oros",

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3735&t=KJV

which is here translated as “mountains”, is translated as “hill” in Matthew 5:14, Luke 4:29, and Luke 9:37 in the King James Version of the Bible,

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an HILL cannot be hid." (Matt. 5:14)

"And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the HILL whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong." (Luke 4:29)

"And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the HILL, much people met him." (Luke 9:37)

so my suggested translation of “seven hills” is perfectly justifiable.

In fact, there are Bible versions (NIV, NLT, CEV, GNT, WNT) which actually translate this portion of scripture as “seven hills”, and you can verify that for yourself here:

http://biblehub.com/revelation/17-9.htm

With such being the case, when John “saw ONE OF HIS HEADS AS IT WERE WOUNDED TO DEATH; AND HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED” (Rev. 13:3), he actually foresaw one of Rome’s "seven hills” (Rev. 17:9) receive a “deadly wound”, only to eventually be “healed” of the same.

How in the world can a “hill” receive a “deadly wound” and then be “healed” of the same?

Such is not only possible, but it is already recorded history and one of the most precise prophecies in scripture which properly identifies the Vatican/the Papacy as the Biblical kingdom of antichrist.

Please allow me to explain…

One of Rome’s “seven hills” is the Caelian Hill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

and here is a little information about the same:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Palace

“THE LATERAN PALACE (Latin: Palatium Lateranense), formally the Apostolic Palace of the Lateran (Latin: Palatium Apostolicum Lateranense), is an ancient palace of the Roman Empire and LATER THE MAIN PAPAL RESIDENCE IN SOUTHEAST ROME.

LOCATED ON ST. JOHN’S SQUARE IN LATERAN ON THE CAELIAN HILL, the palace is adjacent to the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran, the cathedral church of Rome. FROM THE FOURTH CENTURY, THE PALACE WAS THE PRINCIPAL RESIDENCE OF THE POPES, AND CONTINUED SO FOR ABOUT A THOUSAND YEARS UNTIL THE APOSTOLIC RESIDENCE ULTIMATELY MOVED TO THE VATICAN. The palace is now used by the Vatican Historical Museum, which illustrates the history of the Papal States. The palace also houses the offices of the Vicariate of Rome, as well as the residential apartments of the Cardinal vicar, the pope's delegate for the daily administration of the diocese. Until 1970, the palace was also home to the important collections of the Lateran Museum, now dispersed among other parts of the Vatican Museums.

FOLLOWING THE LATERAN TREATY OF 1929, THE PALACE AND THE ADJOINING BASILICA ARE EXTRATERRITORIAL PROPERTIES OF THE HOLY SEE. [Notes 1]”

The Lateran Palace is located on the Caelian Hill.

It was “the principal residence of the popes and continued on for about a thousand years until the Apostolic Residence ultimately moved to the Vatican”.

Although the Papacy originally resided in the Lateran Palace upon Caelian Hill, their residence eventually moved to its current location for the following reason:

http://www.papalartifacts.com/portf...d-photo-of-the-signing-of-the-lateran-treaty/

“A very significant event for the papacy that occurred in the 20th century was the signing of the Lateran Treaty in 1929.

Up until 1870, the Vatican owned territory that was referred to as the Papal States, which in essence, included the whole central portion of Italy. The Papal States’ territory was first assembled in the 6th century as a means of protection for the Church. These states ceased to exist in 1870 when the empire of Italy, in order to unify it, confiscated the land referred to as the Papal States.

And so, from 1870 all the way to 1929, the popes were referred to as ‘the prisoner of the Vatican,’ because they each, in turn, refused to agree to the terms the new nation of Italy made. They did not recognize any authority by Italy over them. In turn, the Vatican was not recognized as a nation. Therefore, once elected pope, he lived and died in literally that small 108-acre enclave that surrounds Saint Peter’s Basilica, because he refused to leave. He claimed to be the head of state, but the state that was surrounding him didn’t recognize him as such.

So, between 1870 and 1929, there was no coinage minted and no stamps made. There was nothing official that represented the Vatican City-State as an actual nation. But in 1929, because of growing political pressure, which had been mounting for decades, the nation of Italy and the Vatican together agreed upon terms that constituted what came to be known as the Lateran Treaty. It would have been, in essence, July 4, 1776 for us. It was signed on February 11, 1929 and ratified by Italy on June 7, 1929. It’s the day that the modern-day Vatican City-State got its independence and was recognized as a nation.”

In other words, as was recorded in newspapers of the day, the Papacy, which originally resided at the Lateran Palace upon Caelian Hill, received a “deadly wound” in 1870 when the Papal States were temporarily stripped of their power and the popes were referred to as “prisoners of the Vatican”.

This “deadly wound” was then “healed” in 1929 with the signing of “The Lateran Treaty” upon Caelian Hill.

This is by no means my forced interpretation of a Biblical prophecy.

Instead, this is precisely what the newspapers of that day reported themselves.

(Continued in my next post)

 

[Live4Him]

(Continued from my previous post)

Here are two newspaper reports from 1929 which document my assertion.

The first is from “The San Francisco Chronicle”, and it is dated February 12, 1929.

Here is an image of the full front page of the newspaper that day:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/lateran1.gif

And here is an isolated image of the article of importance:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/lateran2.gif

If you click on this second image once it appears, then it will enlarge/magnify, and you will be able to read the following headline:

“Heal Wound of Many Years”.

You will also be able to read the same from within the article:

“The Roman question tonight was a thing of the past and the Vatican was at peace with Italy. The formal accomplishment of this today was the exchange of signatures IN THE HISTORIC PALACE OF ST. JOHN LATERAN by two noteworthy plenipotentiaries, Cardinal Gasparri for Pope Pius XI and Premier Mussolini for King Victor Emmanuel III.

In affixing the autographs to the memorable document, HEALING THE WOUND WHICH FESTERED SINCE 1870, extreme cordiality was displayed on both sides. The Cardinal Secretary of State warmly welcomed the Premier TO THE OLD PAPAL RESIDENCE while Mussolini showed particular attention to the venerable prelate by bidding him sit while the text of the accord was read.”

Not only was “the wound of many years healed”, but it was “healed” at “the old papal residence” or at “the historic palace of St. John Lateran” on Caelian Hill.

This is precisely the "head" or “hill” (Rev. 17:9) which had its “deadly wound healed” (Rev. 13:3, 12, 14), just as God accurately foretold.

Here is another article from 1929.

This one is from “The Catholic Advocate”, and it is dated April 18, 1929:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/lateran3.gif

Again, the article will enlarge/magnify when you click upon the image, and you will be able to clearly read the following:

“We have watched first Cardinal Gasparri and then Premier Mussolini drive into THE LATERAN PALACE, and they are now sealing the accord between the Holy See and Italy. Their meeting was to have been a secret guarded for the inner circle, but the story, like so many of its kind, leaked, and a crowd, tense with excitement, is here to witness the passage of these two men whose pens WILL HEAL A WOUND OF 59 YEARS.”

Not only do we once again read of the “healing of a wound”, but I personally find this next quote to be very interesting:

“THERE WERE REALLY NO GRAVE REASONS WHY THE DOCUMENT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SIGNED AT THE VATICAN. INSTEAD, THE HOLY FATHER DECIDED THE HISTORIC HALL OF POPES OF THE LATERAN MISSION MUSEUM SHOULD ONCE AGAIN SEE HISTORY, that the background of the signing of peace with the country in which the supernatural centre of the Church is found should be an institution organized to make clear that Catholicity is above all flags, all nations, labours for every people on earth.”

Actually, there was A VERY GRAVE REASON why the document could not have been signed at the Vatican and why it needed to be signed at the Lateran Palace on Caelian Hill instead, and that VERY GRAVE REASON is that Biblical prophecy needed to be precisely fulfilled in that Caelian Hill’s “deadly wound” needed to be “healed” exactly where it was first received.

There’s also this much more recent article from “The Times of Malta”, dated September 21, 2010, to consider:

https://timesofmalta.com/articles/v...t-time-in-1870-capture-of-rome-tribute.327810

I would encourage you to read the entire article (it’s short) for yourself, but be sure not to miss the following:

“The Vatican for the first time took part in anniversary celebrations of the 1870 capture of Rome by Italian troops which ended the Papal States’ domination of the city for more than a thousand years.

'We are here to take part in a symbolic gesture and to re-affirm the fact that Rome is the indisputable capital of Italy, just like it is the heart of everything that concern the Church,' Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone said before the ceremony.

Italy’s President Giorgio Napolitano and the mayor of Rome, Gianni Alemanno, also took part in the celebrations of the 140th anniversary of the “breach of Porta Pia,” when on September 20, 1870 Italian troops broke into Rome close to the city gate, completing the country’s unification.

Mr. Alemanno said Cardinal Bertone’s presence had 'a special meaning', even though the ceremony 'was no longer A MATTER OF HEALING THE HISTORICAL WOUND BETWEEN THE ITALIAN STATE AND THE HOLY SEE'.”

“No longer A MATTER OF HEALING THE HISTORICAL WOUND BETWEEN THE ITALIAN STATE AND THE HOLY SEE”?

Yep.

Again, this is when “the first beast” or first kingdom of Revelation chapter 13 and/or "the beast" or "kingdom" of Revelation chapter 17 had its “deadly wound healed”.

Although the “popes” currently reside at the Vatican, the Lateran Palace upon Caelian Hill is an extraterritorial property of the Holy See”, as was mentioned earlier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_the_Holy_See

Why is this significant?

It’s very significant because many will balk at my claims because the Vatican is NOT situated upon one of Rome’s seven hills itself, as the following image shows:



Although the Vatican resides on the other side of the Tiber River, again, Caelian Hill is their extraterritorial property.

Turning back to the book of Revelation, we read:

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. THE BEAST THAT THOU SAWEST WAS, AND IS NOT; AND SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, AND GO INTO PERDITION: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, WHEN THEY BEHOLD THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET IS. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. AND THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, EVEN HE IS THE EIGHTH, AND IS OF THE SEVEN, AND GOETH INTO PERDITION.” (Revelation 17:7-11)

The Papacy is “the beast” or the kingdom that “was” (from the 4th Century until 1870), “and is not” (from 1870 to 1929), “and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” (from 1929 until today).

Yes, the Papacy/the Vatican “is the eighth ("the eighth" HILL, in context), and is of the seven”, or directly associated with the Lateran Palace upon Caelian Hill, “and goeth into perdition” because the antichrist is “the son of perdition” (II Thessalonians. 2:3).

THIS is the “hill” whose “deadly wound was healed”…just as the Bible accurately and precisely foretold.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

 

[Live4Him]

P.S.

Although I linked to the website of a Seventh Day Adventist in order to show two of the newspaper articles from 1929, I am NOT a SDA, I have NEVER been a SDA, and I will NEVER be a SDA.

Just in case anybody reading this is wondering.

 

[Live4Him]

By the way, if you're interested in my thoughts as to who the "another beast" (Rev. 13:11) or another kingdom is who will be working in close conjunction with "the first beast before him" (Rev. 13:12) or the Papacy/the Vatican in these last days, then I gave a pretty good introduction to the same previously here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-god-giving-america-up.197885/page-2#post-4508933

 

[iamsoandso]

By the way, if you're interested in my thoughts as to who the "another beast" (Rev. 13:11) or another kingdom is who will be working in close conjunction with "the first beast before him" (Rev. 13:12) or the Papacy/the Vatican in these last days, then I gave a pretty good introduction to the same previously here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-god-giving-america-up.197885/page-2#post-4508933

Let me ask you a few questions first... In Daniel is there a women being carried by any of the beast Daniel saw? There is in the Revelation and the two descriptions of the beast seem similar in both Daniel and Revelation but in Daniel who gives power to them? In Daniel 2:21 God is who is raising up the kings https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/2-21.htm On the other hand though in Revelation there is a woman being carried by the beast but in Rev. 13:2 the "dragon" is who gives it it's power(not God). https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm And so then it seems that "Babylon,M/Persia, Greece and Rome" are given authority by God as punishment to Israel but in Revelation it's being pointed out that the Dragon is responsible for this seven headed beast John saw.

I'm not Catholic and so I'm not trying to defend them against the things you have said(others also) but after years of watching people debate this back and forth I have noticed other things that never seem to be pointed out. I realize from your post that you see Rev.17:8 future from when it was seen (approx. AD65-96) and so you see it between then and now from your post. I have to do something today but I will return tonight.

 

[posthuman]

The Papacy is “the beast” or the kingdom that “was” (from the 4th Century until 1870), “and is not” (from 1870 to 1929), “and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” (from 1929 until today).

then from the perspective of John in the 1st century wouldn't it be the beast that never has been, is not now, one day will be, won't be, then will be again?

why shouldn't i take 'was' to have relevance to John when he sees it?

 

[Runningman]

A key to understanding what the devil is actually up to is knowing that he counterfeits as much as possible that God has made for His good purposes.

Here's a short, but informative, read I just dug up from an FAQ writer on Blue Letter Bible:

Don Stewart :: How Does Satan Counterfeit Jesus?

 

[Live4Him]

then from the perspective of John in the 1st century wouldn't it be the beast that never has been, is not now, one day will be, won't be, then will be again?

why shouldn't i take 'was' to have relevance to John when he sees it?

The short answer to your question is found here:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Rev. 1:19)

In other words, where "the first beast" is concerned, John was seeing that "which shall be hereafter".

 

[posthuman]

The short answer to your question is found here:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Rev. 1:19)

In other words, where "the first beast" is concerned, John was seeing that "which shall be hereafter".

isn't that the "will be" part?

what's the point of putting time references with no way to measure them?
mathematically ((and God is certainly a mathematician)) there's no measure without a kernel; a zero -- every measurement has to have a reference frame or there's no such thing as measure, and John writes time measurements: "was" and "is not" and "is" and "will be" etc --- why should i assume i am the reference frame, or 1884 is the reference frame, or . . . ? where is the verse in the book that tells me what the fixed point is?

 

[posthuman]

isn't that the "will be" part?

what's the point of putting time references with no way to measure them?
mathematically ((and God is certainly a mathematician)) there's no measure without a kernel; a zero -- every measurement has to have a reference frame or there's no such thing as measure, and John writes time measurements: "was" and "is not" and "is" and "will be" etc --- why should i assume i am the reference frame, or 1884 is the reference frame, or . . . ? where is the verse in the book that tells me what the fixed point is?

IOW how do i know whether what you informed me of is a shadow or is the substance? our life is fractal in nature; patterns are repeated -- there are motifs. they spring from or presage the kernel. which one is the origin and which one is an echo of it? how do i discern between?
and thank you -- i had never heard the things you wrote. they are really interesting

i'm not mocking; i'm trying to be rigorous is all

 

[Live4Him]

Hy

isn't that the "will be" part?

what's the point of putting time references with no way to measure them?
mathematically ((and God is certainly a mathematician)) there's no measure without a kernel; a zero -- every measurement has to have a reference frame or there's no such thing as measure, and John writes time measurements: "was" and "is not" and "is" and "will be" etc --- why should i assume i am the reference frame, or 1884 is the reference frame, or . . . ? where is the verse in the book that tells me what the fixed point I'mis?

I'm posting from my phone, so I need to be brief.

"The first beast" that John saw had "ten horns", right?

Well, seeing how these "ten horns" or "ten kings" were yet FUTURE at the time of John's writing, then why is it hard for you to consider that "the first beast" itself was yet FUTURE too?

Revelation chapter 17

[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[Live4Him]

P.S.

I'm blind in one eye, so it's very difficult for me to post from my phone.

I appreciate the questions and comments, and I'll do my best to address them later on tonight when I'm home and on my laptop.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Live4Him]

A key to understanding what the devil is actually up to is knowing that he counterfeits as much as possible that God has made for His good purposes.

I'm glad that you mentioned this because it's vital that we recognize the same.

In order to properly understand what is written about the antichrist, we FIRST need to know certain things about Jesus Christ.

One very important thing that we must understand is the following:

Isaiah chapter 9

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

It has long been prophesied that Christ shall reign over this earth at his second coming from within a temple in Jerusalem and "upon the throne of David".

In fact, the angel Gabriel pronounced the same to Mary:

Luke chapter 1

[26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
[29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Satan is very aware of this fact, and he therefore greatly covets the throne which has long been ordained for Christ, and he will sit upon it, albeit for a very short period of time, in the person of the antichrist.

I'm mentioning this now as a precursor to what I will say to @iamsoandso in a future response because it pertains to one of the questions that he asked me.

 

[Live4Him]

isn't that the "will be" part?

what's the point of putting time references with no way to measure them?
mathematically ((and God is certainly a mathematician)) there's no measure without a kernel; a zero -- every measurement has to have a reference frame or there's no such thing as measure, and John writes time measurements: "was" and "is not" and "is" and "will be" etc --- why should i assume i am the reference frame, or 1884 is the reference frame, or . . . ? where is the verse in the book that tells me what the fixed point is?

Regarding timeframes in the book of Revelation, again, we read:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Rev. 1:19)

It is my present understanding that "the things which are" pertained to the seven churches which John addressed in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

It is also my present understanding that "the things which shall be hereafter" are the things which John records in Revelation chapters 6 through 22.

Revelation chapter 5

[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There were things concerning THE FUTURE which were yet "sealed" until the time that Jesus "prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" or until he "was slain, and had redeemed us to God by his blood".

Chapter 6 begins with the opening of said "seals", and I believe that all of the events recorded from that time on were FUTURE events or "the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).

This does NOT mean that none of the entities or people mentioned in these chapters never existed before, even though some of them did not. It does mean, however, that even pre-existing entities or people are mentioned in relation to yet FUTURE events at the time of John's writing.

 

[Live4Him]

Let me ask you a few questions first... In Daniel is there a women being carried by any of the beast Daniel saw? There is in the Revelation and the two descriptions of the beast seem similar in both Daniel and Revelation but in Daniel who gives power to them? In Daniel 2:21 God is who is raising up the kings https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/2-21.htm On the other hand though in Revelation there is a woman being carried by the beast but in Rev. 13:2 the "dragon" is who gives it it's power(not God). https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm And so then it seems that "Babylon,M/Persia, Greece and Rome" are given authority by God as punishment to Israel but in Revelation it's being pointed out that the Dragon is responsible for this seven headed beast John saw.

I'm not Catholic and so I'm not trying to defend them against the things you have said(others also) but after years of watching people debate this back and forth I have noticed other things that never seem to be pointed out. I realize from your post that you see Rev.17:8 future from when it was seen (approx. AD65-96) and so you see it between then and now from your post. I have to do something today but I will return tonight.

In regard to who is giving them power, I ask you to consider the following:

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (II Sam. 24:1)

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (I Chron. 21:1)

Who "moved" or "provoked" David to number Israel?

The LORD, Satan, or both?

I believe that the correct answer to this question is both.

Satan can only do what God allows him to do, and I believe that we see clear-cut examples of the same in Job chapters 1 and 2 (and elsewhere in the Bible as well).

Anyhow, I think that this article does a pretty good job of explaining what I'm suggesting to you here:

https://answersingenesis.org/contra...ed-david-to-count-the-fighting-men-of-israel/

More in line with the topic at hand, I would ask you to consider the following:

Revelation chapter 13

[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
[2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Here, we see that "the dragon" or Satan gives power to this "beast" with "ten horns".

However, later on in Revelation, in regard to this same "beast" with "ten horns", we read:

Revelation chapter 17

[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Here, we see that it is GOD who puts it in the hearts of these "ten horns" to "give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of GOD shall be fulfilled".

It seems to me, once again, that Satan is only allowed to accomplish what God allows him to accomplish.

I hope that this effectively answers this particular part of your question.

 

[iamsoandso]

Regarding timeframes in the book of Revelation, again, we read:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Rev. 1:19)

It is my present understanding that "the things which are" pertained to the seven churches which John addressed in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

It is also my present understanding that "the things which shall be hereafter" are the things which John records in Revelation chapters 6 through 22.

Revelation chapter 5

[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and in the people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There were things concerning THE FUTURE which were yet "sealed" until the time that Jesus "prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" or until he "was slain, and had redeemed us to God by his blood".

Chapter 6 begins with the opening of said "seals", and I believe that all of the events recorded from that time on were FUTURE events or "the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).

This does NOT mean that none of the entities or people mentioned in these chapters never existed before, even though some of them did not. It does mean, however, that even pre-existing entities or people are mentioned in relation to yet FUTURE events at the time of John's writing.

In Matthew 24:3 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm they ask Jesus these three questions and many suppose they are asking about his second coming. Looking at the Gospels immediately after the Crucifixion it appears that the disciples/Apostles did not understand he was going to die,be buried and then rise from the grave so it wouldn't be likely that they were asking about it. When Jesus gave his answer at the O.D. do you think he mentioned the things that were sealed in the sealed scroll(Rev.5) before he was slain?

 

[49]

Well, if I weren't confused as all get out before reading this thread, I sure am now.......

 

[iamsoandso]

P.S.

I'm blind in one eye, so it's very difficult for me to post from my phone.

I appreciate the questions and comments, and I'll do my best to address them later on tonight when I'm home and on my laptop.

Thanks for your patience.

lol, that's why I cant use a cell phone, it's just too small for me to see(old eyes)...