Rev 6:1&2 The white horseman,

[abcdef]

I personally think that the women riding the beast is the RCC and the beast is all the false religions of the world
that present themselves under the banner of Christianity. "wolf in sheep's clothing" these are all spin offs of the RCC
hence the label "MOTHER OF HARLOTS'
So if we can see this then the deadly wound that is healed is very easy to see!

I once believed a similar idea.

What I am going to tell you is something that you have never heard before.

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The symbolism is showing the situation in 96 AD approx. of the people of Israel.

---------------

The city is Rome, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and it's people fled, were killed, or were taken as slaves.

The woman on the beast is the broken natural branches in league with Rome against the gospel kingdom. This situation is also seen in the letters to the 7 congregations.

The descriptions of the harlot riding the beast, Rev chs. 17, 18, show that the harlot's home, Jerusalem has been destroyed by the time of the writing of the Revelation. The repeated words, "Babylon has fallen", seem to show this, that Jerusalem had fallen by the time this was written. The harlot broken natural branches were in captivity by Rome.

The woman riding the beast isn't controlling the beast, no one can, her power is "elevated" through the beast to kill the gospel kingdom.

The woman is sitting on the seat of the beast, Rome. The question is, is the seat that she has taken, permanent or temporal? We know that the sea beast is given the seat by Satan. So it appears that the seat can be given or taken by Satan, so it would be a seat of temporary power.

The woman, broken branches Israel, is tormented by the 10 kings during the period after the Roman Empire becomes completely divided (symbolic 10, not literal).

The 7 heads represent the lifetime of the Roman Empire. The 8th head is the Bishop Rome and the Vatican, the image of Caesar and the Roman Empire.

------------

 

[preacherskid]

Ok I can see you have given this a lot of thought and you know your history but just play along with me here for a minuet. after reading Revelation about a hundred times in the last 6 months things are starting to look different to me and instead of thinking that this is complicated stuff I am starting to think that it is embarrassingly simple.
Consider this, Revelation 2&3 looks like a great big red flashing warning sign!
about 30% rebuke 40% warning 10% attaboy with some greeting and promise thrown in.
7 times while addressing the church he use the phrase "to he that overcometh"
He that overcometh what? it's obvious that Satan has been playing church! (2 Cor 11:14)
and seven times he uses the phrase "he that hath an ear let him here"
now when I see this in scripture I am thinking there is more here than meets the eye.
So here is the simple part,
Notice in chapter 3:1 he tells the church in Sardis "thou livest, and art dead"
If you believe in a pre tribulation rapture as I do then consider this,
If the Lord is gong to descend with a shout (1 Thes 4:16) the rapture
and if the Lord has a sharp twoedged sword coming out of his mouth (Rev 1:16)
He will deliver a deadly blow to the church (head of the beast) by removing the saved.
the world will then enter the "hour of temptation" Rev 3:10v (the first half of the tribulation) when many will repent and be saved bringing life back to the church. Deadly wound healed. So simple!
people don't fight with swords anymore and suffering a physical deadly blow to the head with a sword and coming back to life just doesn't make much sense especially since we both agree the 6th head of the beast out of the sea is not a man

 

[abcdef]

Ok I can see you have given this a lot of thought and you know your history but just play along with me here for a minuet. after reading Revelation about a hundred times in the last 6 months things are starting to look different to me and instead of thinking that this is complicated stuff I am starting to think that it is embarrassingly simple.
Consider this, Revelation 2&3 looks like a great big red flashing warning sign!
about 30% rebuke 40% warning 10% attaboy with some greeting and promise thrown in.
7 times while addressing the church he use the phrase "to he that overcometh"
He that overcometh what? it's obvious that Satan has been playing church! (2 Cor 11:14)
and seven times he uses the phrase "he that hath an ear let him here"
now when I see this in scripture I am thinking there is more here than meets the eye.
So here is the simple part,
Notice in chapter 3:1 he tells the church in Sardis "thou livest, and art dead"
If you believe in a pre tribulation rapture as I do then consider this,
If the Lord is gong to descend with a shout (1 Thes 4:16) the rapture
and if the Lord has a sharp twoedged sword coming out of his mouth (Rev 1:16)
He will deliver a deadly blow to the church (head of the beast) by removing the saved.
the world will then enter the "hour of temptation" Rev 3:10v (the first half of the tribulation) when many will repent and be saved bringing life back to the church. Deadly wound healed. So simple!
people don't fight with swords anymore and suffering a physical deadly blow to the head with a sword and coming back to life just doesn't make much sense especially since we both agree the 6th head of the beast out of the sea is not a man

PK,

So what is the 2 edged sword that is from Jesus' mouth? Is it a literal sword? What is it? How is it used? What happens when it is used?

-----

The 4 horsemen are spirits that come against Israel from 37 AD until 70 AD.

---------

 

[preacherskid]

PK,

So what is the 2 edged sword that is from Jesus' mouth? Is it a literal sword? What is it? How is it used? What happens when it is used?

-----

The 4 horsemen are spirits that come against Israel from 37 AD until 70 AD.

---------

I see it as not being a literal thing, Ephesians 6:17 says, "The sword of the spirit is the word of God"

 

[Shamah]

I see it as not being a literal thing, Ephesians 6:17 says, "The sword of the spirit is the word of God"

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Isaiah 66:15-16, “For look, יהוה comes with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His displeasure with burning, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword יהוה shall judge all flesh, and the slain of יהוה shall be many.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Strength Almighty. And on His robe and on His banner He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS."

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account.”

 

[abcdef]

I see it as not being a literal thing, Ephesians 6:17 says, "The sword of the spirit is the word of God"

Super, keep that in mind when you see that symbolic gospel sword shown as coming out of His mouth, that it is symbolic of the gospel kingdom for salvation.

-----

In contrast, the 1st rider uses a bow. This bow is symbolic also. What kind of symbolic arrows does it shoot?

Ezek 5:1-17, 16, These are evil arrows of famine. But as the arrows are showing an enemy and are not literal arrows, so the famine is not literal famine necessarily, but a famine for the bread of God's Word, the scriptures and a relationship with God.

The people of Israel hold the scriptures. The Word of God (Holy Spirit waters, bread of life) flows out to the world through Israel. The scriptures (OT) are a witness of Jesus and salvation. When Israel is not allowed to access the scriptures, the flow of God's saving Word to the world is disrupted. So the famine is primarily aimed at Israel but the whole world suffers because of it.

The context of Ezek 5 is the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem v 5.

Notice the similarity between the 4 horsemen and vs. 16 - 17.

The number 4 is symbolic of the earth, north, south, east, and west. So when you see this number again remember that.

In the case of the "4" horsemen, they are spirits that attack Israel from the whole earth, every direction. 37 AD thru 70 AD.

----------

 

[OneFaith]

Does anyone know why the church has been telling me for years that the white horseman is the anti-Christ?
It just doesn't look like it to me!

Probably because of the many diadems on the rider's head- which are crowns made from towel wraps and jewels. Jesus is many things, and therefore wears many figurative crowns. This passage is not speaking of many pope-like characters, but of Christ. It says itself in this passage that the rider is the Word of God. Only Jesus is the Word with a double edged sword- which is truth that cuts deep (sometimes truth hurts).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Chapter 17 v10 says there are 7 kings, 5 have fallen, one is and one is yet to come.
Now if "one is" he has been around for some period of time? sounds more like a system than a man.
I would definitely agree the system is anti Christ!

Hello preacherskid,

The symbolism are the seven heads, which represent the literal which are those succession of seven kings.

Five have fallen = Five kings have already come and ruled

One is = King number six was ruling at the time John was receiving that information from the angel

The other has not yet come = King number seven was future to John and past to us

The eighth King = The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. The beast is that same fallen angel identified in Rev.9:11 who is the king of those demonic locusts who are released from the Abyss at the 5th trumpet and is the same beast who comes up out of the Abyss and kills the two witnesses (Rev.11:7)

In opposition, the ten horns represent ten kings who will rule currently with the beast.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I would definitely agree the system is anti Christ!

People continue to promote this idea that the Antichrist is NOT a man but a system. While the system over which he rules is against Christ and Christians (thus anti-Christ) the man -- who is CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS THE BEAST -- is the Antichrist.

A system cannot be cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment. But a person can certainly be cast into the Lake of Fire as we see here:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20; 20:10).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ok I can see you have given this a lot of thought and you know your history but just play along with me here for a minuet. after reading Revelation about a hundred times in the last 6 months things are starting to look different to me and instead of thinking that this is complicated stuff I am starting to think that it is embarrassingly simple.
Consider this, Revelation 2&3 looks like a great big red flashing warning sign!
about 30% rebuke 40% warning 10% attaboy with some greeting and promise thrown in.
7 times while addressing the church he use the phrase "to he that overcometh"
He that overcometh what? it's obvious that Satan has been playing church! (2 Cor 11:14)
and seven times he uses the phrase "he that hath an ear let him here"
now when I see this in scripture I am thinking there is more here than meets the eye.
So here is the simple part,
Notice in chapter 3:1 he tells the church in Sardis "thou livest, and art dead"
If you believe in a pre tribulation rapture as I do then consider this,
If the Lord is gong to descend with a shout (1 Thes 4:16) the rapture
and if the Lord has a sharp twoedged sword coming out of his mouth (Rev 1:16)

Hello again,

It's not that I have put a lot of thought into it, though I have, but it is because I live in the book of Revelation and have been studying end-time events for over 40 years. Therefore, I have gone over every scenario regarding Revelation and all related scriptures.

Revelation 1:19 divides the book of Revelation into three parts, as John was told to write the following:

What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also stands for the entire church period

What must take place later = The events that will take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

In Rev.4:1, John then hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with the "what must take place later" as stated above. Revelation 4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up to heaven in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-17. This is the reason why we don't see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" after the end of chapter 3 and during the time of the narrative of God's wrath.

After using the word "church" 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3, The word then disappears from the narrative and is not seen again until Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative and during the epilog. After the church is gone, the word "Hagios" translated "saints" is only used thereafter. The saints referred to are the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have been unbelievers, but will become believers after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath.

The church is referred to again as the bride in Rev.19:6-8, where she is seen in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and where in Rev.19:14 she is seen as that army following Christ out of heaven and wearing her same fine linen that she will have previously received.

He will deliver a deadly blow to the church (head of the beast) by removing the saved.
the world will then enter the "hour of temptation" Rev 3:10v (the first half of the tribulation) when many will repent and be saved bringing life back to the church. Deadly wound healed. So simple!
people don't fight with swords anymore and suffering a physical deadly blow to the head with a sword and coming back to life just doesn't make much sense especially since we both agree the 6th head of the beast out of the sea is not a man

The deadly or fatal blow is to one of the heads of the beast, which is referring to that beast who once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss who is that eighth king and belongs to the seven. That fatal blow, along with the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing on his behalf, will be to give the beast credibility, to authenticate his claim of being God or anything that is called God. The church is gone at 4:1-2 and is therefore not on the earth during the time of the beast.

By the way, regarding the "hour of trial" for those who overcome, Jesus promised that He would keep us out of that hour of trial, which is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath. There again, true believers will not be here, for we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.

 

[Noose]

People continue to promote this idea that the Antichrist is NOT a man but a system. While the system over which he rules is against Christ and Christians (thus anti-Christ) the man -- who is CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS THE BEAST -- is the Antichrist.

A system cannot be cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment. But a person can certainly be cast into the Lake of Fire as we see here:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20; 20:10).

Literal-ism is bringing you down.

Why do you insist that the antichrist is literal man and not a literal beast? is the beast a man or the man a beast, why one and not the other?

The beast will be defeated by the sword of the mouth- i have never seen a literal man die because of tongue lashing. It is definitely a war between Truth and lies and Truth shall prevail against principalities and powers.

Lake of fire?!! if the old earth and old heavens and everything in them are going to pass away, where is this lake of fire forever thing situated? will it be in the new heavens and the new earth?

 

[Noose]

Truly truly i tell you, the antichrist is already here and for a long time now, the white horse man has been around for the last 2000 years and many are lost in the lies. For those waiting for a literal man will continue guessing until the end of age.

The war is between Truth and lies, Truth will be caught up into the new heavens and the earth and shall remain forever, everything else shall continue descending in a bottomless pit and be forgotten forever.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Truly truly i tell you, the antichrist is already here and for a long time now, the white horse man has been around for the last 2000 years and many are lost in the lies. For those waiting for a literal man will continue guessing until the end of age.

The war is between Truth and lies, Truth will be caught up into the new heavens and the earth and shall remain forever, everything else shall continue descending in a bottomless pit and be forgotten forever.

FANCIFUL INTERPRETATIONS WON'T GET YOU ANYWHERE EITHER.

 

[Noose]

FANCIFUL INTERPRETATIONS WON'T GET YOU ANYWHERE EITHER.

Not fanciful, just logic.

Common sense, if everything is passing away then there is no such thing as lake of fire forever, you can not have both.

The only fanciful interpretation there is, is when the bible says "..the beast out of the sea..." and someone says it means "the man out of some neighborhood"

 

[Aryeh]

Does anyone know why the church has been telling me for years that the white horseman is the anti-Christ?
It just doesn't look like it to me!

This is probably because the official church serves this world, not God. There, in Revelation it is clearly written that the Lord will sit on this white horse:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (19:11)

This "horse" itself is Ezekiel's Temple, the very idea of this Temple is a "white horse":

Because this Temple is a sign to gather "the elect from the four winds." Because when the elect enter the Temple through the Eastern Gate, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will take place, the Lord God will appear on the earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is probably because the official church serves this world, not God. There, in Revelation it is clearly written that the Lord will sit on this white horse:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (19:11)

This "horse" itself is Ezekiel's Temple, the very idea of this Temple is a "white horse":

Greetings Aryeh,

The white horse of the 1st seal is representing the revealing of the antichrist, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11 which is the Lord.

Because this Temple is a sign to gather "the elect from the four winds." Because when the elect enter the Temple through the Eastern Gate, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will take place, the Lord God will appear on the earth.

According to Matt.24:30-31, the Lord returns to the earth and at the same time He will send out his angels who will gather the elect, which is referring to all who belong to him world-wide which includes the great tribulation saints who are Gentiles. These are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who John sees in white robes which no man can count who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, which makes them all Gentiles. In addition, the reference to "gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" has nothing to do with the temple, but is in reference to the angels that go throughout the whole earth gathering those who belong to the Lord who will have made it through the entire wrath of God and the beasts reign.

 

[abcdef]

Greetings Aryeh,

The white horse of the 1st seal is representing the revealing of the antichrist, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11 which is the Lord.

Now this is interesting, I strongly agree with this statement.

But then, where we disagree is the timing of the event. I say past, 37 AD until 70 AD. You say future to us.

--------

The 4 horsemen spirits attack Israel and Jerusalem as the powers of Caesar and the iron beast nation Rome in 37 ad -70 AD, not the planet, the world of Israel. It's all about Israel and Jerusalem.

The planet is the gentile nations. They are shown as enemies of the wild and natural branches of Israel, the beast, Magog, etc., and the 4 horsemen. So for them, when Jerusalem falls, it is seen as a great victory. The people of the world see it as a great victory.

So the Revelation is showing events from the viewpoint of Israel. The things shown are the things that Israel suffers for rejecting the gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost.

------

The 6th seal shows the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. You disagree and say that the things shown are future and planet wide. The 6th seal is confirmation of the prophecies spoken by Jesus to the women of Jerusalem in Lk 23:27 - 31, 30, Rev 6:12 - 17, 16. The words spoken to the women could only be fulfilled by them in their lifetimes and not some future time.

--------

 

[preacherskid]

Super, keep that in mind when you see that symbolic gospel sword shown as coming out of His mouth, that it is symbolic of the gospel kingdom for salvation.

-----

In contrast, the 1st rider uses a bow. This bow is symbolic also. What kind of symbolic arrows does it shoot?

Ezek 5:1-17, 16, These are evil arrows of famine. But as the arrows are showing an enemy and are not literal arrows, so the famine is not literal famine necessarily, but a famine for the bread of God's Word, the scriptures and a relationship with God.

The people of Israel hold the scriptures. The Word of God (Holy Spirit waters, bread of life) flows out to the world through Israel. The scriptures (OT) are a witness of Jesus and salvation. When Israel is not allowed to access the scriptures, the flow of God's saving Word to the world is disrupted. So the famine is primarily aimed at Israel but the whole world suffers because of it.

The context of Ezek 5 is the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem v 5.

Notice the similarity between the 4 horsemen and vs. 16 - 17.

The number 4 is symbolic of the earth, north, south, east, and west. So when you see this number again remember that.

In the case of the "4" horsemen, they are spirits that attack Israel from the whole earth, every direction. 37 AD thru 70 AD.

----------

Well there is a problem with your bow theory, the word used for bow is not a weapon.
http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleStrongsNumber.aspx?stgno=G5115#
then follow back to the root word
http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleStrongsNumber.aspx?stgno=G5115#
Look at the 19 times it is used in the bible and who it refers to.

 

[preacherskid]

Hello again,

It's not that I have put a lot of thought into it, though I have, but it is because I live in the book of Revelation and have been studying end-time events for over 40 years. Therefore, I have gone over every scenario regarding Revelation and all related scriptures.

Revelation 1:19 divides the book of Revelation into three parts, as John was told to write the following:

What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also stands for the entire church period

What must take place later = The events that will take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

In Rev.4:1, John then hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with the "what must take place later" as stated above. Revelation 4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up to heaven in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-17. This is the reason why we don't see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" after the end of chapter 3 and during the time of the narrative of God's wrath.

After using the word "church" 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3, The word then disappears from the narrative and is not seen again until Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative and during the epilog. After the church is gone, the word "Hagios" translated "saints" is only used thereafter. The saints referred to are the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have been unbelievers, but will become believers after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath.

The church is referred to again as the bride in Rev.19:6-8, where she is seen in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and where in Rev.19:14 she is seen as that army following Christ out of heaven and wearing her same fine linen that she will have previously received.



The deadly or fatal blow is to one of the heads of the beast, which is referring to that beast who once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss who is that eighth king and belongs to the seven. That fatal blow, along with the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing on his behalf, will be to give the beast credibility, to authenticate his claim of being God or anything that is called God. The church is gone at 4:1-2 and is therefore not on the earth during the time of the beast.

By the way, regarding the "hour of trial" for those who overcome, Jesus promised that He would keep us out of that hour of trial, which is another designation referring to the time of God's wrath. There again, true believers will not be here, for we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.

I agree about the hour of trial, we are gone!
I don't agree about everything after 4:1 being future events. if that is what you are saying?
Revelation doesn't appear to me to read like a story book, the events are not in order and they are spread out all over history and the future.

 

[Shamah]

5115 - toxon: a bow
Original Word: τόξον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: toxon
Phonetic Spelling: (tox'-on)
Short Definition: a bow
Definition: a bow.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
a bow
NASB Translation
bow (1).

G5115 τόξον toxon (to'-xon) n.
a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric).
[from the base of G5088]
KJV: bow
Root(s): G5088


they bringforth powers... one would have to look at military and economic history...