seeing through the veil, the veil ripped in two, when Jesus said it is finished John 19:30. Which begged a question from me to God?,
God what is finished?
Ask,recieve and be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you for your post
Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture
- Thread starter GWH
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seeing through the veil, the veil ripped in two, when Jesus said it is finished John 19:30. Which begged a question from me to God?,
God what is finished?
Ask,recieve and be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you for your post
Those prior to Luther worked within the confines of the Church. Hus is a good example of the multiple issues of disputes within the Roman Church. Hus was an ordained Catholic priest. He was a master, dean, and rector at the Charles University in Prague between 1409 and 1410. Alexander V, was an antipope elected by the Council of Pisa during the Western Schism (1378–1417). He invalidly reigned briefly from 26 June 1409 to his death in 1410, in opposition to the true Roman Pope Gregory X. Alexander V issued a Papal bull that excommunicated Hus; however, it was not enforced, and Hus continued to preach. Hus then spoke out against Alexander V's successor, Antipope John XXIII, for his selling of indulgences. Hus' excommunication was then enforced, and he spent the next two years living in exile. Later, in a typical deception, Hus was invited to present his views to a council created for that supposed purpose. Hus was thrown in prison and it was demanded he recount his views. Hus refused and was burned at the stake.
He opposed the teaching of the history of the Church as a requirement. He opposed the sales of high church offices. Hus and his followers, Hussites, practiced an Eastern form of Orthodox Christianity. It included hearing the scriptures in their native language. The Eucharist was different as well. Catholics referred to Hussite followers as Utraquists. Catholics and Utraquists were given legal equality in Bohemia after the religious peace of Kutná Hora in 1485. Bohemia and Moravia, or what is now the territory of the Czech Republic, remained majority Hussite for two centuries. Roman Catholicism was only reimposed by the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II following the 1620 Battle of White Mountain and during the Thirty Years' War.
While we tend to think of these early critics of the Roman Church as primarily opposed to church practices they all became wrapped around the axle of turbulent and violent political wars.
Your observation that Luther was saved by the printing press is spot on. While he probably did not post his famous 95 Theses on the church door, he did post them in the University were he taught on the equivalent of a bulletin board. Among his major crimes against the Catholic Church was translating the latin bible into German.
Wycliff like Luther was a Catholic priest working at a university. He was also vilified for translating the Vulgate from latin to middle english. Not all Wycliffe's theology was accepted by Luther and later reformers. Certain of Wycliffe's later followers, derogatorily called Lollards by their orthodox contemporaries in the 15th and 16th centuries, adopted a number of the beliefs attributed to Wycliffe such as theological virtues, predestination, iconoclasm, and the notion of merging church and state, with some questioning the veneration of saints, the sacraments, requiem masses, transubstantiation, monasticism, and the legitimacy or role of the Papacy.
U - unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.
The Scriptures teach the opposite, which is the F in MFW:
F – free faith, meaning that GRFS or condition for attaining righteousness is IF they believe in GW, which implies sinners are enabled by God to repent, seek salvation and believe the Gospel of Christ’s atonement–but they may resist divine grace.
A systematic study of the DOE might begin well by interpreting a proof-text that seems to be the fountainhead of the TULIP dogma, namely Romans 9:10-24, in the context of the rest of relevant Scripture in Romans regarding salvation/election (s/e), which is Romans 1-11. Here are the first five chapters focusing on U vs. F:
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile. [IF whosoever believes]
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end. [IF whosoever believes from conversion until death]
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading. [IF whosoever repents of unbelief/ignoring GW]
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). ["or not" signifies IF ]
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows. [IF whosoever believes, then heaven, IF not--then hell]
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4). [IF whosoever perseveres in saving belief]
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW. [resistible = or not = IF]
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil. [resisting/choosing atheism is made possible by IF]
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off. [IF in the OT is found in Deut. 30:19]
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e. [IF = faith; in JC--or not/in self/Satan]
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7). [may--or may not = IF]
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit. [thus IF must choose belief in JC]
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11). [opportunity = IF ]
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10). [IF indicates God's just judgment]
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ. [Abe was the first to satisfy the condition of IF by believing in God]
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. [IF whosoever believes in JC]
As the rest of Romans 1-11 is cited, keep in mind the refrain "IF whosoever will" is the context:
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.
23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).
24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.
25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.
26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.
28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.
23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).
24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.
25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.
26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.
28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
The word "IF" in English from Greek can mean "Since" and does many times mean Since!
Hebrews 6:3 states "If" in the translation, yet I see means since God will permit
Now, since the word IF is used that leaves doubt to get in and that God requires more than what is done for me and all the world through Son that is done once for all. John 19:30, John 1:29 To be given new life and learn new in love and mercy to all too, thank you
Thank you Father an dSon as won for all to be in that will not quit Col 1:21-23
Hebrews 6:3 states "If" in the translation, yet I see means since God will permit
Now, since the word IF is used that leaves doubt to get in and that God requires more than what is done for me and all the world through Son that is done once for all. John 19:30, John 1:29 To be given new life and learn new in love and mercy to all too, thank you
Thank you Father an dSon as won for all to be in that will not quit Col 1:21-23
"If" means freedom to choose to believe/do something or not, as in Col. 1:21-23, 1Cor. 15:2, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, etc.
Yes, this freedom results from God permitting people to believe and be saved--or not
If, leaves, am I, will I, can I! doubt can and does set in many people and keeps them in their flesh and blood and can't do it. That leaves these people to ask clergy, Pastors the truth, not God personally.
I tell you do what they say, they tell you truth, yet do not do as they do, They say and do not do it themselves
These are controlling others under them. When freedom from God Father is in place to love all thanks to the done work of Son for us all first at the cross, then the resurrection for us to be alive in belief to Father doing this for us to love all too.
Since has no if in it. Since is complete, Done, "If "is a maybe, no way around that. as I see from God to me, 1 John 2:27
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
God still speaks and teaches each believer in his love and mercy of Son for them. It is not an If, it is since or because
1 Corinthians 5:8
therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
2 Corinthians 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2 Corinthians 2:17
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
2 Corinthians 8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
Ephesians 6:24
Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.
"Since" makes no sense in most of the "if" verses.
Of COURSE "if" allows souls to remain sinners;
otherwise you should be preaching universalism.
You really do not understand do you. No offense meant!
I am seeing Jesus saying to Nicodemus, you a teacher, a preacher do not know
You do not understand the word "IF" I give you physical analogies to bring home spiritual realities!
John 3:12
Authorized (King James) Version
12
So I say I beleive, and you say "IF" You believe. Then you want to teach me or anyone that will listen to you.
I put my pants on one leg at a time, so does everyone else. there is no one better than anyone else
God loves us all, and has done the work needed to redeem our Souls, That is done John 19:30. New life is a gift from God not me or anyone else.
Love you as God loves you, yes me as everyone else through all my/ their mistakes ever made or make again. learning to not be proud or a know it all. Been there not anymore, thanks to Father's teaching me this personally, Next!
Thank you Love from God to us all as you are. start there and begin to see new personally too, love you Father, thank you
I understand English, and in John 3:12 "if" means Jesus may or may not speak of heavenly things so that the hearer may or may not believe and have eternal life per John 3:15-16, which is why if the hearer does not believe, then he/she remains justly condemned per John 3:18.
In John 4:10 "if you knew the gift of God" implies "if you did not know the gift", but the second "if" would make sense to be understood as "since", because Jesus knew the woman did not know.
In John 5:31 "If I testify" implies "if I do not testify", although v. 32 could be understood to imply "since there is another who testifies".
In John 5:43 "if someone else comes in his own name" implies "if someone else does not come in his own name but in the name of God", which was Jesus.
In John 5:46-47 "If you believed Moses" is contrasted with "since you do not believe", implying that you could believe but didn't, which is why you are culpable for the sin of disbelief.
And so forth...
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.
36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.
37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).
38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.
39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,
and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.
40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).
41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.
42. Romans 11:33-36 concludes Paul’s development of the DOE by acknowledging that God’s mind is unknowable beyond what He reveals.
It’s really not complicated. As Scripture clearly and unquestionably states, Jesus Christ alone is the Savior. As such, all of the requirements for salvation were completely satisfied/accomplished by Him alone, or He couldn’t/wouldn’t possess the title and role of Savior. In having been satisfied by Him as they were, there is nothing remaining for us to try to satisfy/accomplish, or we would be adding to, and placing ourselves in violation of Christ, His completed sacrifice, and God's grace. So, it all comes down to whether or not, as Christians, we actually do believe that Christ is the Savior, which, if we do, realizing that too was given to us by Christ; that is, that everything which pertains to the obtaining of salvation, along with everything that accompanies and results from salvation, were given to those whom He saves as a completely free gift by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ to those who are completely unworthy of it. Should anyone believe differently, then for integrity's sake, they should be obliged in any discussions of salvation, to clearly state that Jesus really isn't the Savior. There simply aren’t any other options – He either is the fully Savior or He is not, there’s no middle ground and it all boils down to that.
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Well, "it" (resolving problematic interpretations of Scripture) has been a lifelong/55 year project for me,
so perhaps I am a slow learner but at least I have the gift of perseverance.
I view "Scripture" as including the OT, which did NOT even vaguely name JC as the Savior, alone or otherwise.
My Baptist upbringing from the womb taught me that Jesus was the Savior, in whom we trust and obey, for there's no other way...
I agree that tulipists should be obliged to clearly state why Jesus isn't the Savior for some.
So, the bottom-line is that by your post you're saying you don't believe Jesus truly is the Savior.
Indeed, the OT is Scripture too; but in it, only those chosen of God knew and believed in the coming Savior: they believed that He would come and believed in the complete efficacy of His sacrifice; they knew this through/by the Holy Spirit.
[Isa 7:14-16 KJV]
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
[Isa 53:1-8, 10-11 KJV]
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. ...
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[Psa 22:12-18 KJV]
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
[Mic 5:2 KJV]
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.
[Zec 9:9 KJV]
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
[Zec 12:10 KJV] 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Simple and self-evident: all who do not become saved, do not, because Jesus didn't choose them that He should be their Savior.
Clear enough?
No, the bottom line is that your post indicates inability to comprehend English Scripture.
None of the OT verses you cited named Jesus as Messiah, which is what I had posted:
"The OT did NOT even vaguely name JC as the Savior, alone or otherwise."
That's ridiculous - He didn't have to be named, nor did they have to know His birth name: their faith nevertheless was in a Savior to come, not in themselves - a Savior that was to be later revealed. By the fact that they believed in Him, demonstrates that they had become saved; otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to - they wouldn't have been aware of any Savior.
You're groping!