Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Phoneman-777]

FreeGrace2 said:
So you apparently believe that the Bible is internally contradicted then.

You're really not getting any of this, I see.

If there is even 1 verse that plainly teaches eternal security, then there CAN'T be any verses that teach loss of salvation.

And John 10:28 is FAR MORE clear and direct in what it says than ANY of the verses that you can provide.

It couldn't be any more simple.

But you've indicated that there are both kinds of verses. It is your opinion that is conflicted.

Look, your refusal to allow John 6:39 and John 10:28 to be qualified by other verses which plainly teach the conditional nature of salvation is a reflection on the OSAS crowd as bigoted and immature. Like children, you refuse to face facts like responsible adults, shutting your eyes and stopping you ears.

If I'm wrong, please explain how it is that the "many" in Matthew 24:12 whose "agape" turns cold and leaves them unable to endure to the end and be saved...are not saints - because since "agape" is only demonstrated by keeping God's law (1 John 5:3 KJV) and the wicked can't keep it even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV), they can't anything other than saints.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Conditional salvation.
If that were true we'd best concentrate on working to stay saved.

Conditional salvation proponents are likely those who insist works are necessary to be saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

lol, The giving of the law by Jesus (going to the heart, was to show mankind was unfit to save himself, they needed the truly Obedient One to save them...

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
(Rom 5:19-20)

That may be correct but people, pick and chose, what they wish to believe. More so, what their church teaches could not be in error.

 

[Inquisitor]

lol, it would also mean a return to Rome with all it's Mysteries, Intermediaries, Superstitions and Work Righteousness. Indulgences anybody?

You left out Inquisitions.

The greatest of all the ministries of the church.

When the Inquisitions had a head of steam up, there was not a false doctrine to be found.

Those were the days.

 

[crossnote]

That may be correct but people, pick and chose, what they wish to believe. More so, what their church teaches could not be in error.

I take the Scriptures as a whole (getting the big picture), and what I come up with fits best with as little contradiction as possible. I’ve looked at many views in studying the Scriptures and that’s where I landed.

 

[crossnote]

You left out Inquisitions.

The greatest of all the ministries of the church.

When the Inquisitions had a head of steam up, there was not a false doctrine to be found.

Those were the days.

lol, I see enough inquisitions on Christian Forums, but you’re right, I should have added that as well.

 

[Goliath]

So what is your Church denomination?

I don't have one...

How are you saved?

Through the Regeneration of the heart...

Who taught you the primary doctrines of Christianity?

Gods Holy Spirit.

 

[Goliath]

Doesn't Scripture say apart from Christ, we can do nothing?

Well that's absolutely true. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we would walk in darkness..without the commands of Jesus Christ...we would have no one to call Lord.
Why do you see what I say...as apart from Christ?

The Christian can't keep God's commandments until they first receive "agape" into their heart, followed by the demonstration of that "agape" which is keeping God's commandments.

I totally agree...but how does this regeneration take place?
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:12)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Where does Jesus say, "if you quit believing in Me, I'll quit saving you"?

I asked you a question. Are you capable of an answer, or are you just going to continue to ignore my questions and keep asking yours?

You have a very serious problem.
1. you have NO verses that say what you claim.
2. you believe Matt 24:13 says endurance is required for salvation, in spite of Jesus saying that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
3. your theology creates a serious contradiction in the Bible.
4. you don't answer any questions.

Those who know the truth CAN answer questions.

You have zero room to talk, pal.

First, I'm not your "pal". I am your brother in Christ. And second, I have a whole LOT of room to talk. I answer every question posed to me. I have verses that say what I believe.

I've been asking you to explain why you and the rest of your OSAS crowd deny that the"many" who wind up lost because they allowed their "agape" to turn cold and dead in Matthew 24:12 are saints

OK, let's look at the verse:
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

You're making the SAME MISTAKE as J123, by presuming "saved" here refers to soul salvation. The context is clearly the 7 year Tribulation, so it isn't even about getting saved or losing salvation. And v.12 refers to the conditions of mankind during that time.

With all the out of control crime across the US right now, I'd say we are SEEING v.12 in action.

And there is nothing about losing salvation in this context. So quit asking your irrelevant question.

when 1 John 5:3 KJV plainly says the "agape" of God is demonstrated by keeping God's law, and Romans 8:7 KJV says the wicked can't keep them even if they wanted to.

Proving what, exactly? All you're doing is cherry picking verses and mashing them together, hoping they will stick.

Yes, still waiting for an answer, but I already know no answer will come.

Oh, how little you know then. This isn't the first time I've addressed your curiosity.

Yes, none of us that God has given to Jesus will be lost IF we choose to remain found in Him instead of allowing iniquity to kill our "agape" cold and dead.

Go ahead and prove this presumption with a clear verse. Which doesn't exist.

Your last statement here demonstrates vividly that you do NOT BELIEVE Jesus' words in John 10:28.

He made it clear that those given eternal life, which is WHEN they become believers per John 5:24, shall never perish.

But you don't believe that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look, your refusal to allow John 6:39 and John 10:28 to be qualified by other verses

They don't need to be "qualified" by anything. They are straightforward words. And I don't use Jn 6:39 with 10:28, but 5:24, which states very clearly WHEN a person is given eternal life; which is when they become believers.

You cannot explain what Jesus was meaning in either verse, or you would have by now.

which plainly teach the conditional nature of salvation

You are just sooooooo wrong. Jn 5:24 and 10:28 destroys your presumption. None of the verses you think teach conditional salvation, or more plainly, loss of salvation, aren't at all clear. Nothing like Jn 5:24 and 10:28, which are as plain as can be.

[QUOERT] is a reflection on the OSAS crowd as bigoted and immature. [/QUOTE]
Oh, grow up.

Like children, you refuse to face facts like responsible adults, shutting your eyes and stopping you ears.

Transference is what you do.

If I'm wrong, please explain how it is that the "many" in Matthew 24:12 whose "agape" turns cold and leaves them unable to endure to the end and be saved...are not saints - because since "agape" is only demonstrated by keeping God's law (1 John 5:3 KJV) and the wicked can't keep it even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV), they can't anything other than saints.

Just did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look, your refusal to allow John 6:39 and John 10:28 to be qualified by other verses which plainly teach the conditional nature of salvation

Maybe you aren't aware of the KISS principle. It means Keep It Simple, Stupid.

You violate that principle by taking much less clear verses and try to "explain" or "clarify" what MUCH MORE clear verses say.

So you have it exactly backwards.

In John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The ONLY thing that needs to be clarified in this verse is WHEN a person becomes a recipient.

That is found in John 5:24. Jesus said believers POSSESS eternal life.

So, a person becomes a recipient of eternal life WHEN they become a believer.

It couldn't be more clear.

That is why I always use John 5:24 and John 10:28 together. 5:24 informs WHEN a person becomes a recipient of eternal life.

The KISS principle.

 

[Jackson123]

2. you believe Matt 24:13 says endurance is required for salvation, in spite of Jesus saying that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not believe will be condemned
What is not believe include
1 never believe
2 was believe but not anymore

Matt 24
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

What is stand firm to the end?
Keep believing to die

Saved physically or spiritually

Rev 13
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

It say refused to worship will be killed
Mean any body endure will be killed physically

But saved spiritually , Matt 24:13

That make me believe
Stop believe mean stop salvation

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
2. you believe Matt 24:13 says endurance is required for salvation, in spite of Jesus saying that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Your comment isn't even about my response to the verse you use for endurance salvation. Please pay attention.

Not believe will be condemned
What is not believe include
1 never believe
2 was believe but not anymore

But, while you're distracted by a different verse, I already explained this and another verse that says the same thing to you.

Yes, your #1 is correct. But your #2 is FALSE.

Once a person has believed, regardless of whether they still do or not, it CANNOT be said that they "never believed".

Do the meaning of words mean anything to you?

"has not believed" means "NEVER believed".

How can you say that "never believed" means "used to believe"?

Matt 24
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

What is stand firm to the end?

It means survive the 7 year tribulation.

Keep believing to die

No, it doesn't mean that.

Saved physically or spiritually

Delivered physically from danger.

Rev 13
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

It say refused to worship will be killed
Mean any body endure will be killed physically

There will be believers who do survive the tribulation. Paul made that clear in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:17. They survived physically and will be "gathered up" to meet Jesus and all the dead saints in the air when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.

That make me believe
Stop believe mean stop salvation

But you STILL haven't provided any verse that says what you believe. So your belief is based NOT on what the Bible says, but what you PRESUME to be true. But isn't.

If those who cease to believe cease to be saved, then the following is what Jesus WOULD HAVE SAID in John 10:28 -

I give them eternal life, and IF IF IF they endure in their faith to the end, they shall never perish.

That's how Jesus would have expressed your view if He held your view.

But thank God that He REJECTS your view, as you do to His view.

John 10:28 condemns your very unbiblical view of salvation.

Without any clear verse, you have no case and no point. Just your presumptions.

 

[Jackson123]

How can you say that "never believed" means "used to believe"?

Where I say never believe = use to believe

Use to believe but not anymore is not save

Did the verse say only need to believe a second and stop believe than save ?
I think you change the word

 

[crossnote]

I totally agree...but how does this regeneration take place?
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:12)

Goliath, that verse is not talking about regeneration, at least not 'how we are regenerated'. It's the next verse that is closer to explaining how...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

(btw, love your little Goliath, I'd hate to bump into him in a dark alley, lol.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How can you say that "never believed" means "used to believe"?

Where I say never believe = use to believe

It is apparent that words DON'T mean anything to you. You just make up whatever you want words to mean.

To say "have not believed" = NEVER believed. No offense, but your second language skills aren't the best here.

Use to believe but not anymore is not save

That is just your opinion. The 2 verses say that condemnation is for those "have NOT believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

Did the verse say only need to believe a second and stop believe than save ?

You need to put your stop watch away. It isn't helping you.

I think you change the word

No, YOU are the one trying to change words. It may be a problem of English not being your native language, or it may be your blindness to see the truth. You'll have to answer that one.

But, I will give you an example to show how you are wrong about "never" meaning "no longer".

If you used to eat spinach, can you honestly clam that you NEVER ate spinachd? No, if you are sane, you cannot.

But, if you NEVER ate spinach, you CAN say that you "have not eated spinach".

It is not sane to claim that "never" can mean "no longer". They aren't the same at all. You need help with your English.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I totally agree...but how does this regeneration take place?
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:12)

regeneration had already taken place.

the greek word for work out (katergazesthe) is actually a mining term. he people who work in the mines will "work out" the item being mined. in other words. they are working out what i useful and valuable, (like a gem, diamond or coal) and making it usefull. They are not working to make the item, the item is already there. they are working it out.

Our salvation is already there. Justification is set in stone. what Paul is telling us to do is take that salvation we have and work it out so it can be used.

the fear he is talking about is being found as a hypocrite or someone who can be charges by the world of something that would put out his light (reputation) so that his words and walk are rejected. Paul said he feared he himself would be disqualified as a teacher. and not able to be used by God. we should all be this way.

 

[Jackson123]

That is just your opinion. The 2 verses say that condemnation is for those "have NOT believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

I understand English is your first language but I am so sorry to say it is worse than me
Not believe anymore mean not believe

 

[FreeGrace2]

I understand English is your first language but I am so sorry to say it is worse than me

Are you actually saying that my English is "worse" than your English??

Not believe anymore mean not believe

Again, you are terribly misreading the verse. The verse doesn't say "not believe anymore". It says "has NOT believed". That means NEBER believed.

I gave you an example that you should be able to understand.

I think you aren't even trying to understand. Because, if you did, you would HAVE TO admit that your view is unbiblical, and it seems you just aren't willing to do that.

When someone "has not believed" it means they NEVER believed. Regardless of your opinion.

 

[Jackson123]

Are you actually saying that my English is "worse" than your English??


Again, you are terribly misreading the verse. The verse doesn't say "not believe anymore". It says "has NOT believed". That means NEBER believed.

I gave you an example that you should be able to understand.

I think you aren't even trying to understand. Because, if you did, you would HAVE TO admit that your view is unbiblical, and it seems you just aren't willing to do that.

When someone "has not believed" it means they NEVER believed. Regardless of your opinion.

Did the verse say never believe?
Not add the word never in the verse