Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

those pesky replacement theologians who keep replacing Christ with earthly israel that cant even prove their lineage.

Christ is irreplaceable. Obviously.
Furthermore the knowledgable futurist understands the stark differences between the present Church age (which will terminate and soon) and the future redemption of a repentant believing Israel.

You see, at this phase of redemptive history, God is obtaining a gentile wife for His Son.

You know.....per the type represented by Ruth and Boaz. Naomi gets her inheritance back as part of the overall plan.

Time for you to get a grip on reality friend.

 

[ewq1938]

It would be just as fair to say we are not grafted into the church.
"Church" means many different things to many different people.
When Jesus saves us we are grafted into Jesus.

But the natural brances were not born as Christians and saved so that analogy does not work.

The natural branches are Israelites, so the tree is Israel. Gentiles can be granted into Israel, the chosen people due to faith in Christ. Those natural ones who reject Jesus are removed.

Gentiles never replaced Israel. They joined NT faithful Israel who were the ones who because the NT Church (the 12 disciples).

In the OT Israel did not exist. The concept was created and given to a certain family. In the NT those of that family that accepted Christ were allowed to remain Israel, those who did not were removed and other olive branches from other trees that also accepted Christ would be spiritually grated to the original tree. When grated the new branch is part of it's new tree so gentiles cease being gentiles just as Jacob ceased being a gentile and even ceased being Jacob since his name was changed....to Israel. Faithful gentiles also get this name change and are Israel after grafting.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But the natural brances were not born as Christians and saved so that analogy does not work.

The natural branches are Israelites, so the tree is Israel. Gentiles can be granted into Israel, the chosen people due to faith in Christ. Those natural ones who reject Jesus are removed.

All of the natural branches were/are grafted in. All have been in unbelief, so all were broken off, and those that repent(ed) and believ(ed) are/were grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Romans 11:20​

​

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Romans 11:23​

​

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32​

 

[Beekeeper]

The natural branches are Israelites, so the tree is Israel. Gentiles can be granted into Israel, the chosen people due to faith in Christ. Those natural ones who reject Jesus are removed.

Gentiles never replaced Israel. They joined NT faithful Israel who were the ones who because the NT Church (the 12 disciples).

I agree with this statement.

I would also state the obvious, that the natural branches are not born saved, but need also to come to Jesus who is (among other things) the living king of Israel.
God also has a special consideration for the natural children of all believers, including "Gentile" (Acts 2:39)
None the less, the citizens of Christs kingdom are "a new creature" ie neither Jew nor Gentile, so those distinctions have really outlived their usefulness.

Galatians 6: 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Beekeeper]

You see, at this phase of redemptive history, God is obtaining a gentile wife for His Son.

You know.....per the type represented by Ruth and Boaz. Naomi gets her inheritance back as part of the overall plan.

Boaz was also the son of Rahab the Canaanite.
Ruth also became a citizen of Israel, and the mother of Obed the grandfather of king David.

 

[ewq1938]

All of the natural branches were/are grafted in.

No. Some were faithful from the start and were never removed. Of those removed, some will re=attached but that is a small number compared to all removed.

 

[Beekeeper]

Christ is irreplaceable. Obviously.
Furthermore the knowledgable futurist understands the stark differences between the present Church age (which will terminate and soon) and the future redemption of a repentant believing Israel.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!
Nope.

There will not be a future Christian-free golden Jewish age.
When Jesus comes it is final.
There will only be disappointment, sorrow and anger (weeping and gnashing of teeth) for the unbeliever on that day.

Mathew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Probably because ye will be waiting for your eschatology to be fulfilled.

 

[cv5]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!
Nope.

There will not be a future Christian-free golden Jewish age.
When Jesus comes it is final.
There will only be disappointment, sorrow and anger (weeping and gnashing of teeth) for the unbeliever on that day.

Mathew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Probably because ye will be waiting for your eschatology to be fulfilled.

Frankly, you really have no idea of what I am taking about.
Which is predictable, as those who despise the elder brother Sons of Jacob (whom God loves with an eternal love) have blinders on. Self imposed of course.

 

[Beekeeper]

as those who despise the elder brother Sons of Jacob

Actually I like my elder brothers a lot.

 

[Beekeeper]

There were more than one abomination that made desolate. How could the one in 167 BC be the one Jesus warned his disciples about in the 1st century AD? IMO that is why Jesus (or whoever made that parenthetical comment) said let him who reads understand

Mathew 24:15.....(whoso readeth, let him understand

I have been considering that this is because Jesus is not speaking about the literal fulfillment of Daniel 11:31.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes (c. 215 BC–November/December 164 BC from Wickapedia) had already famously defiled the temple more than a century before Christ, so the Jews understood the prophesy to be already fulfilled.
The take home message is that if you see anything blasphemous going on in the temple, get out of Jerusalem.
Something similar to Daniel 11:31 is going to happen.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The take home message is that if you see anything blasphemous going on in the temple, get out of Jerusalem.
Something similar to Daniel 11:31 is going to happen.

Which is what happened when the zealots barricaded themselves inside the temple

"According to Josephus, Ananus ben Ananus delivered a speech at a public assembly in Jerusalem, condemning the population for tolerating the rise of the Zealots, whom he called "tyrants." He rebuked the people for remaining silent when the city's nobles were murdered without trial and warned that the rebels had turned the Temple—the most sacred place—into a fortress.[10] Evoking past struggles against foreign domination, Ananus questioned why those who had fought for liberty now submitted to homegrown oppression.[10] He contrasted the restraint of the Romans, who had not violated the sanctuary, with the bloodstained rebels who roamed freely within it​

​

"As Ananus began mobilizing fighters, the Zealots, realizing the threat, launched a furious counterattack from within the Temple.[10] The skirmish began with the belligerents throwing rocks at one another, then javelins, then finally hand-to-hand combat with swords ensued.[10] Eventually the Zealots retreated to the inner court of the Temple, and The moderates' superior numbers eventually forced the Zealots to retreat into the inner court of the Temple, where they fortified themselves."​

Zealot coup in Jerusalem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot_coup_in_Jerusalem

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The take home message is that if you see anything blasphemous going on in the temple, get out of Jerusalem.
Something similar to Daniel 11:31 is going to happen.

The zealots lied to the Edomites to get them to come and help, who consequently slaughtered many Jerusalemites. They repented when they realized they had been lied to and left, which is when many in Jerusalem fled. Had they not done so they would have been trapped in the city and perished. Vespasian's pause allowed this window of opportunity.

"Most of the Idumaeans, realizing the extent of their wrongs, eventually chose to leave Jerusalem;[20][21] others stayed and joined Simon's ranks.[22] Many Jews fled to the Romans, driven either by personal danger from their ties to the former government or by disillusionment with the revolutionary leaders; others secured their departure by paying a price.[23] Vespasian, upon hearing of the events in Jerusalem from deserters, decided against marching on the city, asserting, according to Josephus, that God was letting the Jews destroy themselves without Roman interference"​

 

[HeIsHere]

Actually I like my elder brothers a lot.

Calvinists have one type of supremacy/exceptionalism and futurists have another.

But God's word was true then and true today.

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 2:29

 

[cv5]

Mathew 24:15.....(whoso readeth, let him understand
I have been considering that this is because Jesus is not speaking about the literal fulfillment of Daniel 11:31.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes (c. 215 BC–November/December 164 BC from Wickapedia) had already famously defiled the temple more than a century before Christ, so the Jews understood the prophesy to be already fulfilled.
The take home message is that if you see anything blasphemous going on in the temple, get out of Jerusalem.
Something similar to Daniel 11:31 is going to happen.

As I predicted earlier, despising Israel can only lead to a state of desperate stygian darkness in the matter of eschatology.
Many here will CHOOSE to deny this conclusive exegetical treatment. Proof positive of the foregoing BTW.
And YES, Matt 24 is UNQUESTIONABLY speaking to a FUTURE series of cataclysmic world changing events. Without doubt.
And absolutely NO, these events are NOT the 70AD destruction of the temple, nor the crucifixion, nor 167BC.

And YES, they pertain to the SECOND COMING, which happens IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation, the "time of Jacobs trouble".

And yes @GaryA is disseminating opinions that are ruinous, defying the objective truth that Jesus is here declaring.
As are you! If you cannot understand the terms "end of the world" and "immediately" and "thy coming", you are truly hopeless.

Mat 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,

1)when shall these things be?
2) and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3) and of the end of the world?

And Jesus DOES answerer them. But in a different order, namely #3 first, #1 second, #2 last.

Mat 24:15 (THE ANSWER TO #1)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mat 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:29
Immediately after the ***tribulation of those days*** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[cv5]

As I predicted earlier, despising Israel can only lead to a state of desperate stygian darkness in the matter of eschatology.
Many here will CHOOSE to deny this conclusive exegetical treatment. Proof positive of the foregoing BTW.
And YES, Matt 24 is UNQUESTIONABLY speaking to a FUTURE series of cataclysmic world changing events. Without doubt.
And absolutely NO, these events are NOT the 70AD destruction of the temple, nor the crucifixion, nor 167BC.

And YES, they pertain to the SECOND COMING, which happens IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation, the "time of Jacobs trouble".

And yes @GaryA is disseminating opinions that are ruinous, defying the objective truth that Jesus is here declaring.
As are you! If you cannot understand the terms "end of the world" and "immediately" and "thy coming", you are truly hopeless.

Mat 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,

1)when shall these things be?
2) and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3) and of the end of the world?

And Jesus DOES answerer them. But in a different order, namely #3 first, #1 second, #2 last.

Mat 24:15 (THE ANSWER TO #1)
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mat 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:29
Immediately after the ***tribulation of those days*** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In Gospel of Matthew 24:15 the Greek reads:

Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως… ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ…​

Let’s look closely at the grammar.


“When you see” — Ὅταν ἴδητε
Ὅταν

This is a contraction of ὅτε + ἄν and means
“whenever” / “when (in the future)”.


Grammatically:

• It normally governs the subjunctive mood
• It refers to a future contingency, not a past event.

ἴδητε

• Aorist subjunctive of ὁράω (“to see”)
• 2nd person plural — “you (plural) see”

Key Point

In Koine Greek, ὅταν + aorist subjunctive is a standard construction for:

Future event viewed as certain but not yet realized​

It does not describe something already fulfilled.
It means:

“When you see (at some future time)…”​

So grammatically, this is future-oriented.


“Standing” — ἑστὸς

• Perfect active participle of ἵστημι
• Masculine nominative singular
• Means “having been set up / standing”

The perfect participle indicates a state resulting from a completed action:

“the abomination… standing in the holy place”​

It describes the condition that will exist at that future time when they see it.


No Future Indicative — But Still Future

You’re right that English uses “shall see.”
Greek does not use a future indicative here.


Instead it uses:

ὅταν + subjunctive​

In Greek grammar, this construction is more precise than simply using a future tense verb. It signals:

• A definite event
• Not yet occurred
• Triggering the following instructions

This is standard Greek future contingency syntax.


The Following Command Confirms It

Verse 16 continues:

τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν…​

“Then let those in Judea flee…”

• φευγέτωσαν = present imperative
• This is a command to be obeyed when that future condition occurs

The structure is:

When X happens → then do Y​

This is clearly forward-looking.


Comparison with Daniel

Jesus explicitly references:

“spoken of by Daniel the prophet”​

This links to Book of Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.


In Daniel, the “abomination” is presented as a future event relative to Daniel’s time. Jesus presents it as future relative to His hearers.


Conclusion

Grammatically:

• Ὅταν = future temporal marker
• ἴδητε = aorist subjunctive (future contingency)
• The sentence structure demands a future fulfillment

So yes — the Greek construction itself requires a future event from the time Jesus spoke.


It does not grammatically allow:

• A past fulfillment
• A symbolic already-fulfilled reference
• A purely metaphorical reading

 

[cv5]

Which is what happened when the zealots barricaded themselves inside the temple

"According to Josephus, Ananus ben Ananus delivered a speech at a public assembly in Jerusalem, condemning the population for tolerating the rise of the Zealots, whom he called "tyrants." He rebuked the people for remaining silent when the city's nobles were murdered without trial and warned that the rebels had turned the Temple—the most sacred place—into a fortress.[10] Evoking past struggles against foreign domination, Ananus questioned why those who had fought for liberty now submitted to homegrown oppression.[10] He contrasted the restraint of the Romans, who had not violated the sanctuary, with the bloodstained rebels who roamed freely within it​

​

"As Ananus began mobilizing fighters, the Zealots, realizing the threat, launched a furious counterattack from within the Temple.[10] The skirmish began with the belligerents throwing rocks at one another, then javelins, then finally hand-to-hand combat with swords ensued.[10] Eventually the Zealots retreated to the inner court of the Temple, and The moderates' superior numbers eventually forced the Zealots to retreat into the inner court of the Temple, where they fortified themselves."​

Zealot coup in Jerusalem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot_coup_in_Jerusalem

So what? Did this lead to the Second Coming? No.
Oh......and they were not "prince that shall come" Romans either.

Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mat 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:29
Immediately after the ***tribulation of those days*** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And as Jesus sat upon the mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately, and asked him 3 questions:

1) when shall the temple be destroyed?
2) what shall be the sign of thy coming? (Coming in judgment against Jerusalem, or coming at the resurrection? They didn't know enough to be able specify which)
3) what shall be the sign of the end of the world age? (End of which age? The age of natural Israel or the age of the gentiles? They didn't know enough to be able specify which)

 

[cv5]

Calvinists have one type of supremacy/exceptionalism and futurists have another.

But God's word was true then and true today.

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 2:29

Futurism has ALL of the right answers. And the crucifixion led to the ASCENSION and the Church Age.
Not the time of Jacobs trouble, nor the Return (IMMEDIATELY AFTER).
The crucifixion DID however fulfill these "UNTIL" statements.

So now the ball is in your court. Explain if you can these crucial UNTIL statements.

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Act 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[HeIsHere]

So yes — the Greek construction itself requires a future event from the time Jesus spoke.

Exactly right ... in their future not ours.

Christ Jesus spoke the words of the New Covenant.... the Scofield futurists have replaced the HOLY Now Covenant with a twisted conflated allegiance to a DIVINELY abolished Old Covenant.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Are you getting any of this @GaryA ?
The preterists and historicists are eating crow on this thread and are being exposed for what they are:
Biblically illiterate and tragically ignorant of even the basic fundamentals of eschatology.

It wasn't for lack of trying. The truth and the verses have been shown here time and time again. Thanks for putting it down in such a concise order. I'm enjoying reading along when I can.