Yup I'm counting 10 also....Gen 19:12. Sons, daughters, sons-in-law......all plural.
Remember Lot's Wife
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hmm
I think in that situation Lots wife clung to her (old) life which is understandable but a grave mistake on her part, and as christians we must be prepared to die to ourselves even if it means sacrifice something we loved. If she had survived then Lots duaghters probably wouldnt have slept with their dad.
I think in that situation Lots wife clung to her (old) life which is understandable but a grave mistake on her part, and as christians we must be prepared to die to ourselves even if it means sacrifice something we loved. If she had survived then Lots duaghters probably wouldnt have slept with their dad.
i don't see anything in the text supporting that and common sense indicates she should have no doubt whatsoever that her life in Sodom was absolutely over.
moreover as the wife of "righteous Lot" ((2 Peter 2)) without any other information that decidedly tarnishes her character i ought to presume she is an upstanding woman and that she was not engaged in a life of wickedness while she lived in Sodom; instead i have every reason to believe she was just as righteous as Lot and every bit as vexed, daily, by the wicked things she saw and heard about going on there.
The common view, that you've repeated here, does not bear up under examination IMO.
which means she very likely had a very different reason to turn back towards the city. one that fits with the overweening theme of this narrative, which is mercy and intercession for one's family. a reason she saw as righteous, that fits with why Lot was delaying by hesitating to leave in the first place, engaging in useless dialogue with the angry mob, arguing with the angels and pleading to disobey their instructions by going to one of the cities destined to be destroyed instead of obediently fleeing to the mountains.
That explanation is perhaps that she, a mother, was selflessly going back to try to save her other children, knowing it almost certainly would mean her own physical death, desiring rather to die with them if she could not convince them to immediately run, than to live seeing them destroyed. and her husband conspired to buy her time by arguing and going to Zoar instead of continuing in the way the angels had brought him.
this makes way more sense to me than the idea that she was so stupid she figured she could still go clubbing the next weekend while two supernatural beings had just performed miracles right in front of her 90 seconds prior and had told her in no uncertain terms they were about to completely demolish the whole plain.
i presume these are not stupid people. that they are shrewd and that there is righteousness in their hearts. that puts me at great odds with the common view.
That's a very interesting side note.
they did this because they believed there were no men left in the entire world who could possibly be their husbands.
And there they were in a cave in the mountains with a bunch of wine.
Not in Zoar.
so what happened to Lot in Zoar?
Did that work out?
good plan?
And where did they get the idea there are no men left in the world apart from their father?
Or that at least no one earth would ever, ever consider marrying them even if they were the last girls on earth?
???
When you start asking questions this whole narrative is very mysterious! and the things you were told about it since you were a kid make no sense!
some treasure here, is what that means
so we gotta dig
Where did all that wine come from?
what's it doing in a cave in the mountains with Lot and his surviving daughters?
The children of Lot by his daughters became enemies of Israel (Moabites and Ammonites).
By logical nference:
Genesis 19:12
Then the men said to Lot, "Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take [them] out of this place!
The angels mention "sons" plural. more than one.
two choices:
- The angels sent by God to rescue Lot and his family have no idea whatsoever what Lot's family consists of and they are totally winging it the whole time.
- The angels sent by omniscient God to rescue Lot and his family know everything about Lot and exactly who his family consists of.
i believe the second option to be in keeping with what is said elsewhere in scripture of angels sent directly to specific people, therefore i believe Lot has more than one son, and if he has exactly 2 then the number 10 in Genesis 18:32 is perfectly explained.
with those two things in hand, Occam's razor.
By logical inference, the angels asking who else is here means they do not know.
As did the children of Canaan
both Christ and Peter put 'the days of Noah' together with these events of Sodom.
((Luke 17:26-29, 2 Peter 2:5-6)) - no accident. there are many parallels here; one of them being 8 souls saved from destruction by water by an ark, 4 souls saved from destruction by fire by the hand of angels.
Does it make sense to you that God sends angels to save a man and they are completely ignorant of the most basic details of that man's family?
But in the garden, God asks Adam where he is - is it a logical inference that omniscient God doesn't know where Adam is?
on the basis that He asks?
Or do questions sometimes get asked for reasons other than ignorance?
Angels do not possess God's omniscience.Does it make sense to you that God sends angels to save a man and they are completely ignorant of the most basic details of that man's family?
But in the garden, God asks Adam where he is - is it a logical inference that omniscient God doesn't know where Adam is?
on the basis that He asks?
Or do questions sometimes get asked for reasons other than ignorance?
Why assume only two sons? That does give you a tidy sum of ten. Though obviously
if sons existed they were not righteous, to be counted among the would-be rapists.
Wouldn't the angels know that also? Were they to save the unrighteous?
- admittedly yeah, because the math works out beautifully
- agree - the text indicates 'all' the men of Sodom comprised the mob so the sons and the sons-in-law were complicit if not physically present
- "no one is righteous" per Romans 3, yet Lot is called righteous - as are others. this is not a contradiction but it raises the question of the basis of assignment of righteousness. that's too deep for this discussion, but I would point out that the reason Lot and those of his family with him are being saved from destruction is specifically stated in the account:
- Genesis 19:16 - - the LORD being merciful unto him
- as I stated to Cameron earlier, it seems 1-6 people in Sodom were righteous. perhaps only Lot: in which case those with him were saved for his sake. and perhaps he was saved for Abraham's sake - because it is by mercy, not by Lot's self-worth
Genesis 19:16 applies only to those who were with Lot.
But he (Lot) lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand,
the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.
which is why Genesis 19:12 exists
((anyone else? get them! bring them!))
which lends credence to my view of what Mrs
Lot was thinking when she turned back.
Not about garlic. not about stuff.
about her children. about loved ones. souls.
I understand... and yet, Lot knowing the nature of his possible sons, and sons-in-law,which is why Genesis 19:12 exists
((anyone else? get them! bring them!))
which lends credence to my view of what Mrs
Lot was thinking when she turned back.
Not about garlic. not about stuff.
about her children. about loved ones. souls.
could not have counted them as righteous. Also, Genesis 19:12 has the angels asking:
New International Version
The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or
daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
New Living Translation
Meanwhile, the angels questioned Lot. “Do you have any other relatives here in the city?”
they asked. “Get them out of this place—your sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone else.
English Standard Version
Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons,
daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place.
Berean Standard Bible
Then the two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—a son-in-law, your sons
or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
King James Bible
And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and
thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
New King James Version
Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your
daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place!
New American Standard Bible
Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else do you have here? A son-in-law and your
sons and daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
NASB 1995
Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons,
and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
NASB 1977
Then the men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons,
and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
Legacy Standard Bible
Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons,
and your daughters, and everyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
Amplified Bible
And the [two] men (angels) asked Lot, “Have you any others here [in Sodom]—a son-in-law,
and your sons, and your daughters? Whomever you have in the city, take them out of here;
Christian Standard Bible
Then the angels said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here: a son-in-law, your sons and
daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of this place,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the angels said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here: a son-in-law, your sons
and daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of this place,
American Standard Version
And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons,
and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the men said to Lot, “What are you doing here? Bring out your inlaws and
your sons and your daughters from this place, and all that you have in the city.
Brenton Septuagint Translation
And the men said to Lot, Hast thou here sons-in-law, or sons or daughters,
or if thou hast any other friend in the city, bring them out of this place.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And they said to Lot: Hast thou here ally of thine? son in law, or
sons, or daughters, all that are thine bring them out of this city:
English Revised Version
And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and
thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city; bring them out of the place:
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then the men asked Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-any in-laws, sons,
daughters, or any other relatives in the city? Get them out of here
Good News Translation
The two men said to Lot, "If you have anyone else here--sons, daughters,
sons-in-law, or any other relatives living in the city--get them out of here,
International Standard Version
"Do you have anyone else here in the city?" the angels asked Lot.
"A son-in-law? Sons? Daughters? Get them out of this place,
JPS Tanakh 1917
And the men said unto Lot: 'Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons,
and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city; bring them out of the place;
Literal Standard Version
And the men say to Lot, “Whom have you here still? Son-in-law, your sons also,
and your daughters, and all whom you have in the city, bring out from this place;
Majority Standard Bible
Then the two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—a son-in-law, your sons
or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
New American Bible
Then the guests said to Lot: “Who else belongs to you here? Sons-in-law, your sons,
your daughters, all who belong to you in the city—take them away from this place!
NET Bible
Then the two visitors said to Lot, "Who else do you have here? Do you have any sons-
in-law, sons, daughters, or other relatives in the city? Get them out of this place
New Revised Standard Version
Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons,
daughters, or anyone you have in the city—bring them out of the place.
Truly, the question is posed in such a way that does not lend itself to a foregone conclusion of there actually being sons.
Ruth is a Moabite, and in the Messianic line
This is all on purpose.
God could have had the angels take Lot & Co. directly to the cave in the mountains. He didn't. He knew what would happen.
Yes, I know .
Does not change the fact of who the Moabites were in relation to
Israel, and who fathered them. I simply answered your question.
i base my belief on the supposition that God does not send His angels on a military operation without the most basic intelligence, that the angels watch all things going on on the earth, and i believe that the elegant way it explains the math of Genesis 18 to be corroborative..
.. while admitting that it is inferential and suppositional.
And i still contend that the view i am opposing is equally suppositional but has less logigical suppor lt given the things that the text leaves no room for interpretation about.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
She died a horrific death, Which is what would have happened to those who did not heed the warning issued by Jesus.