Religion v. Relationship Replaced of the Cross and the Resurrection- Have Evangelicals Forgotten the Gospel?

[presidente]

Not at all, it implies no such thing.

It is impossible for men to repent.

No, it doesn't imply ability, John 6 and many other passages deny mans ability.

Salvation is not received or granted for doing anything as you're implying via your question. People are not saved because they did something commanded any more than they could fulfill the Law and be saved.

You're the only one bringing up a phantom false dichotomy, something that doesn't exist in our dialog.

I read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when I was young, and there was a story in it I will retell to the best of my memory. One of the characters was the real power behind the government, as opposed to the figure-head president. He was supposed to be the smartest person in the galaxy. He would sit around wondering whether the table he was sitting at was real. A spaceship with the people who were sent to consult with him left one member behind. The man stood outside his cabin banging on the door while the smart being in the house sat there contemplating whether the sound was real or if reality was all in his imagination.

Your comments remind me of that. I think you are talking the Calvinism too far. If men cannot repent, then the 3000 on the day of Pentecost would not have repented and been baptized and were not added to the church.

I don't see the apostles engaging in this kind of psuedo-intellectual babble when they were evangelizing. If people believed and were saved, God worked in them to do that. God works in people, and people repent.

 

[preacher4truth]

In this scriptural reference Jesus was not speaking to a church. Perhaps this piece of scripture is in error.

Matthew 7:7-11
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you".

Revelation 3:20 was the Scripture at hand.

Scripture is not in error, in spite of your attempt to accuse me of saying anything of the sort.

Salvation is not earned by seeking and knocking, or, works. Therefore you've implied you believe salvation is achieved by seeking and knocking and have proven you misunderstand yet another text of Scripture, relegating it to being saved by works.

 

[preacher4truth]

I read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when I was young, and there was a story in it I will retell to the best of my memory. One of the characters was the real power behind the government, as opposed to the figure-head president. He was supposed to be the smartest person in the galaxy. He would sit around wondering whether the table he was sitting at was real. A spaceship with the people who were sent to consult with him left one member behind. The man stood outside his cabin banging on the door while the smart being in the house sat there contemplating whether the sound was real or if reality was all in his imagination.

Your comments remind me of that. I think you are talking the Calvinism too far. If men cannot repent, then the 3000 on the day of Pentecost would not have repented and been baptized and were not added to the church.

I don't see the apostles engaging in this kind of psuedo-intellectual babble when they were evangelizing. If people believed and were saved, God worked in them to do that. God works in people, and people repent.

Those at Pentecost were not saved because they did some repenting. Repentance was evidence of their conversion, not the cause.

You have made doing something, repenting, the cause of salvation. You're taking your Arminianism/Pelagianism too far, or, what is called works salvation.

You've turned salvation into a reward instead of a Soli Deo Gloria gift of grace. Repenting, or any other condition erases grace if it is something man did. No man can repent and believe, all of this is by God's grace, yet you've made it a work, something man does or must DO to be saved.

 

[presidente]

Revelation 3:20 was the Scripture at hand.

Scripture is not in error, in spite of your attempt to accuse me of saying anything of the sort.

Salvation is not earned by seeking and knocking, or, works. Therefore you've implied you believe salvation is achieved by seeking and knocking and have proven you misunderstand yet another text of Scripture, relegating it to being saved by works.

Can you stop with the sophistry and let's get back on topic.

A verse that proves it is possible for men to repent. it even says 'men' here in the KJV.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

If you want to say that by saying men cannot repent, you do not really mean that men cannot repent, I don't want to read sophistry and semantics. Please don't derail the thread.

 

[presidente]

You've turned salvation into a reward instead of a Soli Deo Gloria gift of grace. Repenting, or any other condition erases grace if it is something man did. No man can repent and believe, all of this is by God's grace, yet you've made it a work, something man does or must DO to be saved.

No I have not. I am writing in English and you are engaging in sophistry to accuse me of such derail the topic.

You said it is impossible for men to repent. I quoted a verse where Jesus said certain men repented.

You are the one talking about believing being a work. Just dial it down a bit and stop overanalyzing and believe what the Bible actually says without trying to turn everything into a 'work'.

 

[preacher4truth]

Can you stop with the sophistry and let's get back on topic.

A verse that proves it is possible for men to repent. it even says 'men' here in the KJV.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

If you want to say that by saying men cannot repent, you do not really mean that men cannot repent, I don't want to read sophistry and semantics. Please don't derail the thread.

Sophistry? Stop with your foolhardy accusations and stick to the context of our discussion, OK?

Thanks.

You're showing you don't understand Scripture or eternal salvation, i.e. you believe doing something like repenting equals eternal salvation in texts where this is not the case nor the scenario.

So you're saved because you DID what exactly? Please list everything you did to save yourself.

 

[presidente]

Sophistry? Stop with your foolhardy accusations and stick to the context of our discussion, OK?

Thanks.

You're showing you don't understand Scripture or eternal salvation, i.e. you believe doing something like repenting equals eternal salvation in texts where this is not the case nor the scenario.

So you're saved because you DID what exactly? Please list everything you did to save yourself.

Read the Bible. The apostles preached and people repented and believed and responded to the Gospel. The formed churches.

They did not preach about how their audiences were actually trying to be saved by works by believing in Jesus. You are overanalyzing everything. TULIP is not the message they preached. Let's get out of niche areas of the theological speculation and back to the Biblical issues.

 

[preacher4truth]

No I have not. I am writing in English and you are engaging in sophistry to accuse me of such derail the topic.

You said it is impossible for men to repent. I quoted a verse where Jesus said certain men repented.

You are the one talking about believing being a work. Just dial it down a bit and stop overanalyzing and believe what the Bible actually says without trying to turn everything into a 'work'.

Nope. You've turned salvation into a reward: If a man repents then for DOING this he gets a reward.

Eternal salvation isn't a merited reward.

Grace is unmerited favor that results in salvation. You're claiming grace is merited, for doing, which isn't grace at all. You've destroyed grace and are arguing that doing something results in being saved, then you're trying to claim that as grace.

 

[presidente]

Nope. You've turned salvation into a reward: If a man repents then for DOING this he gets a reward.

Now that is a foolhardy accusation. I have said no such thing.

Eternal salvation isn't a merited reward.

I do not believe it is, nor have I posted that it has. You are the one reading this idea into things.

You also contradicted scripture when you said that it is impossible for men to repent. I quoted the words of Jesus which proved you wrong.

Grace is unmerited favor that results in salvation. You're claiming grace is merited, for doing, which isn't grace at all. You've destroyed grace and are arguing that doing something results in being saved, then you're trying to claim that as grace.

No I haven't. You are arguing with a strawman. Go derail someone else's thread. Maybe you can post your own thread and post the opposing point of view under a different handle since you enjoy strawman arguments, so you don't misattribute ideas to someone else.

 

[preacher4truth]

Read the Bible. The apostles preached and people repented and believed and responded to the Gospel. The formed churches.

They did not preach about how their audiences were actually trying to be saved by works by believing in Jesus. You are overanalyzing everything. TULIP is not the message they preached. Let's get out of niche areas of the theological speculation and back to the Biblical issues.

People repented because it was evidence of conversion. In other words they were already converted.

You don't believe that because you want the glory and want the cause to be you and want the cause to be based upon something you did.

You're arguing it (you repented) was the cause of your conversion, making grace not grace, and making salvation a reward.

 

[preacher4truth]

Now that is a foolhardy accusation. I have said no such thing.

Sorry, but that's exactly what you've said. You've earned salvation for ____________________.

 

[preacher4truth]

@presidente

One more time: Tell me what you did to earn salvation.

I @presidente did __________________________ to be saved.

 

[presidente]

People repented because it was evidence of conversion. In other words they were already converted.

The Bible does not use such terminology or present the idea that way, so neither do I.

You don't believe that because you want the glory and want the cause to be you and want the cause to be based upon something you did.

You're arguing it (you repented) was the cause of your conversion, making grace not grace, and making salvation a reward.

No I did not. I did nothing to earn salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Paul teaches salvation by faith and not works. You seem to want to interpret having faith as a work. You seem really confused. I imagine a tulip with a cancerous growth on it, growing out of control.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Bible does not use such terminology or present the idea that way, so neither do I.


No I did not. I did nothing to earn salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Paul teaches salvation by faith and not works. You seem to want to interpret having faith as a work. You seem really confused. I imagine a tulip with a cancerous growth on it, growing out of control.

There you are being out of control.

Repentance and faith are evidence of conversion, never the cause.

Bottom line is you believe you were saved for doing both. Congrats, you did it!

 

[presidente]

@presidente

One more time: Tell me what you did to earn salvation.

I @presidente did __________________________ to be saved.

Jesus' death on the cross paid for my salvation.

Do you think you are saved by doing to work of believing you are saved without your faith being a work?

Other people can play at the sophistry-accusation game, too, you know. Let us please get back to the topic of the thread, instead of using the holy scriptures for nonsensical accusations.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus' death on the cross paid for my salvation.

OK.

Do you think you are saved by doing to work of believing you are saved without your faith being a work?

Your above sentence is incoherent. No way around it.

Other people can play at the sophistry-accusation game, too, you know. Let us please get back to the topic of the thread, instead of using the holy scriptures for nonsensical accusations.

Still waiting:

I @presidente did __________________________ to be saved.

Please answer instead of dodging. It's glaringly obvious you deserve the glory for being saved because you did ____________. Tell us what that was that you did without your dodging.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm waiting for you @presidente to answer the above. What you did to achieve salvation, fill in the ____________________ .

 

[presidente]

I'm waiting for you @presidente to answer the above. What you did to achieve salvation, fill in the ____________________ .

Stupid question.

I did not do anything to earn salvation. Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I received salvation through faith, unearned, not because of works.

Let me ask you, do you believe that those who think they earned salvation by believing are unsaved, while those who believe they received salvation through faith without believing their earned it by believing are saved.

Do you realize how foreign to the text of scriptures all of your mental gymnastics are? Paul wrote of salvation by faith, not by works. You want to turn faith into a work in some cases. I don't see this argument or this issue in scripture.

Peter said, "Repent and be converted..." and you wrote, "In other words they were already converted. " Do you see how your thinking is different from the apostles' preaching? They did not concern themselves with your argument, and did not share your way of thinking. Maybe you think Peter did not quite get it right, or he wasn't smart or theologically astute enough to conceptualize or word it as well as you do.

Please stop derailing the thread. Surely, you can see how the topics in the OP other than the one you are pursuing now are also of value, so why not create another thread to discuss this and let this thread continue on topic.

 

[preacher4truth]

Stupid question.
.

Not at all.

What did you do to achieve salvation? Fill in the ____________________ .

I already know your answer: You believe you repented and believed, and, in doing so achieved ("received") "salvation", but you think it's not a reward, yet you base it on you doing _____________.

If it's based on what you did, it is not by grace, it is via merit.

You do not understand the Gospel, but that is the state of many: you've made, as well as many others, salvation a merited reward instead of grace in your ignorance of the Gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you realize how foreign to the text of scriptures all of your mental gymnastics are? Paul wrote of salvation by faith, not by works. You want to turn faith into a work in some cases. I don't see this argument or this issue in scripture.

I've done no such thing. Show me where I've turned faith into a work. I'm waiting.