Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#105
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#105
Guojing said:
What do you think of the covid 19 situation then? If signs and wonders have not ceased, why is even Bethel church canceling all their healing squads now, and moving to online services?
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Because of wisdom. A gift apparently that not all have?
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#106
#106
presidente said:
Interesting questions. It could be his gift was evangelism and not 'follow-up'. Others thing it was important for the apostles to be involved in the conversion of the first foreigners post Pentecost.



Your memory is a little off on this one. James wrote to the church about calling for the elders. The next part of the chapter says to confess your faults one to another and pray one for another that ye may be healed. So not elders could minister in healing, but also all members of the body of Christ.

You are treating one verse as if it contradicts or overrides another. The Bible shows many ways people can be healed. One is through Jesus or the apostles laying hands on them. Another is for 'them that believe' the apostles message to lay hands on the sick. Another is through the elders anointing the sick with oil and praying the prayer of faith. Another is through confessing sins to one another and praying through one another. Psalm 107:20 says, "He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. " People can be healed by the word of God. And plenty of people are healed because God is merciful to us. Unbelievers get cuts and colds that heal up.

A reference to one means of healing does not negate other references to healing. And James could be an early epistle.

God can heal supernaturally, but Paul still gave Timothy health advice. Paul himself had an infirmity that led him to first visit the Galatians, which probably occurred around 14, but clearly by Acts 16 at the latest, but performed great miracles after this.




Have you actually read these documents or studied early church leaders writings? The Didache and Justin Martyr refer to prophets among the Christians at that time, and the Didache gives detailed instructions. I'm not sure if they mentions healing. Ireneaus, a missionary to Gaul, had known Polycarp when he was young and Polycarp was old. Ireneaus wrote of brethren healing, miracles, prophesying, having foreknowledge, speaking in tongues, etc. He considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies, and also thought that all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had.

Tertullian wrote of healing and casting out demons in his day. This has some quotes:
https://www1.cbn.com/signs-and-wonders-early-post-apostolic-era



If you read I Corinthians, it is implied that the Corinthians were violating the order that Paul was instructing them about, yet their gifts were genuine. In Seymour's newsletter, at one point, he wrote about the need for order when it came to speaking in tongues, and having interpretation of tongues. If they had genuine gifts and used them in a disorderly manner at first, like the Corinthians were doing, that doesn't mean the gifts were false. The Corinthians' gifts were not fake. And I have come across three or four references to people speaking in tongues that people knew at the Azusa Street revival, and the interpretation of a message in Russian was confirmed by a Russian speaker. One of the attendees said people hearing their own language is part of what drew the crowds.
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Thank you for your honest answer. Although we may disagree on some points, I respect your approach to giving a good answer.
Oh I believe I healing, and God giving guidance and knowledge and wisdom. My disagreement is with the Pentecostal understanding of those things.
 
G

G2RBeliever

Guest
#107
#107
Dave-L said:
You need to find an exception or retract your claims.
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Hello sir,,I have made NO claims in this thread!
IN other threads I have posted the word only,letting God speak for Himself!
He doesn't need us,but we need Him,all the truths,the blessings,the promises,the discipline and even the chastisement of His word!
Now I ask kindly" put up or shut up" your ignorance is showing!
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#108
#108
1ofthem said:
This is not at all what Pentecostalism teaches. We shouldn't judge all Pentecostals by some of the bad ones. But I do agree, the charlatans out there really make me sick. They are trying to benefit off God and to me that just ain't cool. They are making money off God's name through false works, getting up saying God told them to say or do something when he did not (trying to make a false name for themselves). They do not have the genuine Spirit of God. They are misleading others and the blood will be on there hands come judgement day.
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Please understand that I never lump all together. All, none, always, and never almost never apply.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#110
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#110
stonesoffire said:
Because of wisdom. A gift apparently that not all have?
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But if you read Bethel Church's homepage, they are a church that believes that signs and wonders are to be present today. Don't tell me they now believe NONE of them in that church has that?
 
B

bojack

Well-known member
#111
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#111
Dave-L said:
It was never in your hands or you would prove it.
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I have prayed for healings of cancer , heart attacks attack emergencies , blind, stuff that someone for months just fall out and couldn't walk , prayed for obese folks, alcoholics that I can think of and seen them get healed that's off the top of my head .. I pray for folks when I run across them , I don't have a Dr's office .. I've prayed and knew when and what to tell some one , I've prayed for a man to find a wife and that Mon met a girl and they were married two weeks later , they come to see me and I had to tell them to cut that stuff out sitting on my couch .. I remember stuff all day long Jesus has did in my life, I wish I had written it all down .. I already have faith , what's your problem Dave .. You need to shut up, humble yourself before the Lord and go on a fast for about a week to ten days and seek Jesus ,you're the fake around here and I say that sadly ... You think it's easy praying and going without food for days for nothing but concern for others and desire for Jesus .. I've always been a champion on my own God given ability and I quit using it for my own benefit when I found Jesus .. I've had extreme hardships like any Christian but I don't dwell on that crap and you think because you don't get Gods attention anymore you can cast darkness on me .. You are a dime a dozen little blowfly .. Repent and be revived by Jesus .. I pray you will find your way back to Jesus friend
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#112
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#112
bojack said:
I have prayed for healings of cancer , heart attacks attack emergencies , blind, stuff that someone for months just fall out and couldn't walk , prayed for obese folks, alcoholics that I can think of and seen them get healed that's off the top of my head ..
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No one is disputing the efficacy of prayer. We are talking about miracle workers in the churches going out and clearing out the hospitals. When Christ was doing His healing miracles, He was clearing out the equivalent of many hospitals. So if someone wants to insist that those miracle workers are around, there should be tangible evidence. We all would love to see this, but it is not evident.
 
B

bojack

Well-known member
#113
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#113
Nehemiah6 said:
No one is disputing the efficacy of prayer. We are talking about miracle workers in the churches going out and clearing out the hospitals. When Christ was doing His healing miracles, He was clearing out the equivalent of many hospitals. So if someone wants to insist that those miracle workers are around, there should be tangible evidence. We all would love to see this, but it is not evident.
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That reminds me .. Me and 3 other like minded friends went to the Hospital in Wilmington one Saturday and spread out and went to each room visiting, didn't ask or want to know what was wrong ,just praying laying on hands and went back the next Saturday and all the patients on that floor had been discharged, they wouldn't let us back in .. I don't care , if I'm asked to pray I will in a heartbeat, it is not my ministry to heal the sick , I want to see folks come to Jesus .. I can't get out like I used to ..
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#114
May 29, 2013
9,162
1,789
113
#114
Nehemiah6 said:
No one is disputing the efficacy of prayer. We are talking about miracle workers in the churches going out and clearing out the hospitals. When Christ was doing His healing miracles, He was clearing out the equivalent of many hospitals. So if someone wants to insist that those miracle workers are around, there should be tangible evidence. We all would love to see this, but it is not evident.
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It was more like the healing crusades of today than the hospitals, probably minus the music. Jesus healed people who came to Him seeking healing. He went to the Pool of Bethesda and healed one person. That's where the sick gathered back then, but He healed one person.
 
Subhumanoidal

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
#115
Sep 17, 2018
4,058
3,172
113
#115
presidente said:
We need a gif of someone beating this gif, because it is overused too. Someone beating a dead works of a dead horse beating video.
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It's overused because there are so many times it's effective. It is the symptom, not the sickness.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#117
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#117
bojack said:
I have prayed for healings of cancer , heart attacks attack emergencies , blind, stuff that someone for months just fall out and couldn't walk , prayed for obese folks, alcoholics that I can think of and seen them get healed that's off the top of my head .. I pray for folks when I run across them , I don't have a Dr's office .. I've prayed and knew when and what to tell some one , I've prayed for a man to find a wife and that Mon met a girl and they were married two weeks later , they come to see me and I had to tell them to cut that stuff out sitting on my couch .. I remember stuff all day long Jesus has did in my life, I wish I had written it all down .. I already have faith , what's your problem Dave .. You need to shut up, humble yourself before the Lord and go on a fast for about a week to ten days and seek Jesus ,you're the fake around here and I say that sadly ... You think it's easy praying and going without food for days for nothing but concern for others and desire for Jesus .. I've always been a champion on my own God given ability and I quit using it for my own benefit when I found Jesus .. I've had extreme hardships like any Christian but I don't dwell on that crap and you think because you don't get Gods attention anymore you can cast darkness on me .. You are a dime a dozen little blowfly .. Repent and be revived by Jesus .. I pray you will find your way back to Jesus friend
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Good for you. The prayer of faith will heal the sick. But you should not confuse this with the signs and wonders gifts found in Acts which included tongues and prophecy. These ended in the Epistles and formally expired with the apostles.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#118
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#118
G2RBeliever said:
Hello sir,,I have made NO claims in this thread!
IN other threads I have posted the word only,letting God speak for Himself!
He doesn't need us,but we need Him,all the truths,the blessings,the promises,the discipline and even the chastisement of His word!
Now I ask kindly" put up or shut up" your ignorance is showing!
Click to expand...
Prove your point with documented signs and wonders. There should be plenty these days.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#119
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#119
Nehemiah6 said:
No one is disputing the efficacy of prayer. We are talking about miracle workers in the churches going out and clearing out the hospitals. When Christ was doing His healing miracles, He was clearing out the equivalent of many hospitals. So if someone wants to insist that those miracle workers are around, there should be tangible evidence. We all would love to see this, but it is not evident.
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Signs and wonders are linked to the Gospel of the Kingdom. (Luke 7:18-23)

Its most interesting that, while you believe it was the same gospel then as it is now, you simultaneously also hold on the view that signs and wonders have now ceased.
 
B

bojack

Well-known member
#120
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
1,006
113
#120
Dave-L said:
Good for you. The prayer of faith will heal the sick. But you should not confuse this with the signs and wonders gifts found in Acts which included tongues and prophecy. These ended in the Epistles and formally expired with the apostles.
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And it would do you any good if I told you I've interpreted and confirmed the interpretation of a message given in tongues .. If Jesus didn't keep folks like you away could any one have any peace ?
 
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