Rapture

[Absolutely]

Your comment here made me think of something funny (so take this post in the light-hearted way it is intended ):

at the time of this posting, I happened to notice there've been exactly "1421 views".

For fun, I looked up the Strong's Concordance word in the Greek under that number (for the "word of the day" type study, nothing mystical, mind you). It is this:

Hebrews 5:11 [blb] -

"Concerning this there is much speech from us, and difficult in interpretation [G1421] to speak, since you have become sluggish in the hearings."

https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/5-11.htm

G1421 - dysermēneutos

Good word. I sure want God's best.
That would involve including all verses.

 

[bluto]

bluto, I've got a bit of a Bible study for you, regarding that verse you've been asking about. I've done most of the hard work, but it still will require you to dig into this a bit, yourself.

Consider the following (and this is just a small part of it... I don't want to make this a super long post):

Hebrews 9:28 YLT - [I've purposely put this verse in sections, so you can grasp my point, hopefully]

"so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many,

a second time apart from a sin-offering [/sin] shall appear,

to those waiting for him -- to salvation!"


[response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus ONLY comes at His Second Coming to the earth, not a separate time for our Rapture--Heb9:28 refers to neither of these...]


From Hebrews 9:28 (where a "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)...

out of the 684 usages of "G3708," [I did the leg work for you]

TEN times that the word "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus,

ALL TEN of them refer to AFTER His death/resurrection [NONE "BEFORE"--now re-examine Heb9:28 with closer scrutiny!]

(and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere):

1) Luke 24:34
2) Acts 9:17
3) Acts 13:31
4) Acts 26:16
5) Acts 26:16 [2nd usage in this verse]
6) 1 Corinthians 15:5
7) 1 Corinthians 15:6
8) 1 Corinthians 15:7
9) 1 Corinthians 15:8
10) 1 Timothy 3:16


Note: the ONE OTHER verse that speaks of Jesus' "appeared [passive]" (also following His resurrection) is a completely different word, "G5316 - ephanē - passive" ...

and that verse is,

--Mark 16:9 saying, "He appeared [G5316 - ephanē] first to Mary Magdalene..."

So in light of how the passive form of "appear [G3708; passive]" [just as in Heb9:28] is used of JESUS (ALL AFTER His resurrection, in the 40-days He shewed Himself, PLUS ['last of all'] to Paul even AFTER His visible ascension)...

TEN TIMES referred to in Scripture, we can begin to see a clearer picture of what Hebrews 9:28 is actually conveying.


The pattern [previously mentioned by me in this thread] holds true.

You know tdw, you made me smile as I read this post of yours. The following is what Greek Scholar A.T Robertson stated about Hebrews 9:28. As you can see he indicated that the appearing a secon time is "Future passive indicative of οραω. And notice what Hebrews 9:26 states, "Otherwise He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but nowonce at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin, byh the sacrifice of Himself.

Now think about this tdw. In Jesus Christ the Father has spoken finally, "in these last days" by His Son. Hebrews 1:2. His single sacrifice has ushered in "the end of the world" or literally the end of the ages. I think that this is why A.T.Roberton brought up Hebrews 9:26. There is no mention or even an implication of a rapture before His second coming.

Verse 28
Once (απαχ — hapax). “Once for all” (Hebrews 9:26) as already stated.

Shall appear a second time (εκ δευτερου οπτησεται — ek deuterou ophthēsetai). Future passive indicative of οραω — horaō Blessed assurance of the Second Coming of Christ, but this time “apart from sin” (χωρις αμαρτιας — chōris hamartias no notion of a second chance then).

Unto salvation (εις σωτηριαν — eis sōtērian). Final and complete salvation for “them that wait for him” (τοις αυτον απεκδεχομενοις — tois auton apekdechomenois). Dative plural of the articular participle present middle of απεκδεχομαι — apekdechomai the very verb used by Paul in Philemon 3:20 of waiting for the coming of Christ as Saviour.
Verse 28
Once (απαχ — hapax). “Once for all” (Hebrews 9:26) as already stated.

Shall appear a second time (εκ δευτερου οπτησεται — ek deuterou ophthēsetai). Future passive indicative of οραω — horaō Blessed assurance of the Second Coming of Christ, but this time “apart from sin” (χωρις αμαρτιας — chōris hamartias no notion of a second chance then).

Unto salvation (εις σωτηριαν — eis sōtērian). Final and complete salvation for “them that wait for him” (τοις αυτον απεκδεχομενοις — tois auton apekdechomenois). Dative plural of the articular participle present middle of απεκδεχομαι — apekdechomai the very verb used by Paul in Philemon 3:20 of waiting for the coming of Christ as Saviour. (The reference to Philemon 3:20 is an error so disreagard since there is no Philemon 3:20).

Two things of note, one is at Acts 1:11, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Unto salvation (εις σωτηριαν — eis sōtērian). Final and complete salvation for “them that wait for him. Still no rapture first and then a final and complete salvation.. PS: Keep trying if you must!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[garee]

Not true
You made all that up. Sorry for my ego. Lol

Its not a literal mark. We walk by faith the uneen eternal. And not by sight as that seen the temporal (like a literal mark 666) this includes water baptism as ceremonial law

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Jesus said its an evil generation (natural unconverted man who number is 666) that seeks after a sign before they beleive.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

We search as for silver or gold the things not seen as those revealed in parables having the spiritual meaning hid from the lost .Called the hidden mana in the book of Revelation

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

 

[DudleyDorite]

A lack of a hermeneutic is also how people come up with the idea that Abel was an apostle who brought the gospel to Cain!

It's not a literal mark?

Strong's...
a stamp, an imprinted mark
of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
the mark branded upon horses
thing carved, sculpture, graven work

Vines...
from charasso, "to engrave" (akin to charakter, "an impress," RV, marg., of Hbr 1:3), denotes
(a) "a mark" or "stamp," e.g.
The interlinear says, "a carved emblem."

 

[garee]

A lack of a hermeneutic is also how people come up with the idea that Abel was an apostle who brought the gospel to Cain!

It's not a literal mark?

Strong's...
a stamp, an imprinted mark
of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
the mark branded upon horses
thing carved, sculpture, graven work

Vines...
from charasso, "to engrave" (akin to charakter, "an impress," RV, marg., of Hbr 1:3), denotes
(a) "a mark" or "stamp," e.g.
The interlinear says, "a carved emblem."

LOL A lack of whose hermeneutics ?

Are you the same one that said God does not call natural man whose number is 666..... a beast?

Scripture defines the word within, comparing the spiritual words as meanings not seen to the same .Or faith to faith .

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-17

And if Abel was not sent (as a apostle) why did Cain reject the gospel and kill Abel, as if we did walk by sight, the temporal

We do not wrestles against flesh and blood or outward marks but do against invisible spirits after the father of lies

Yes it not a literal mark. Again we walk by faith (the eternal) not after what the eyes see, (the temporal )

And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth.”And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear! Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.” And the Lord said to him, “Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him. Geneisis 4:10-15

You could say the punishment was living a life of a living hell. It according to Cain who had no rest as that comes from hearing God and believing God as did Abel who did enter the rest . Cain considered the greatness of his punishment as something he could not bear as one that only Christ could bear, as he bore or sin we rest in him.

You could say the electric chair or gas chamber did not fit the crime . The lord set a mark used as a metaphor on Cain to make sure he suffered the pains of a living hell, caring out the suffering to the end.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think that this is why A.T.Roberton brought up Hebrews 9:26. There is no mention or even an implication of a rapture before His second coming.

Did you hear me say that Heb9:28 is not referring to either His Second Coming to the earth (when ALL will see Him, both believers AND unbelievers), NOR to the Rapture/Departure (of "the Church which is His body")? NEITHER of these. Heb9:28 is referring to something else altogether than these two [realities], but also "future". That means that Hebrews 9:28's context is not speaking of the Rapture (just like the Olivet Discourse's context isn't, either). At all.

Aside from all that, Jesus is not "returning" to the earth (when He does) to MARRY the "ten virgins [PLURAL]," not even FIVE of them! He will be returning as an already-wed Bridegroom WITH His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the earthly MK]: the distinction made between Rev19:7 and 19:9 (and other related passages. "The Church which is His body" is NOT "ALL" of these: "the guests [plural]," "the ten virgins [/bridesmaids; plural]," "the servants [plural]" of that future specific time period. It is none of those.)

Nice chatting with you, bluto. Have a great evening.

 

[DudleyDorite]

So you don't care about the definition of the word 'mark.' Why would you? If you were to accept the biblical definition of the word 'mark'/charagma, you would have to admit you're wrong. It's useless trying to convince Christians of truth, they make up their own truth.

The basic definition of the word proves you wrong.

This is the mark of the beast...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hi Dud,

Hope you enjoyed your two-day vacation.

Glad to see you back.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Shall appear a second time (εκ δευτερου οπτησεται — ek deuterou ophthēsetai). Future passive indicative of οραω — horaō Blessed assurance of the Second Coming of Christ, but this time “apart from sin” (χωρις αμαρτιας — chōris hamartias no notion of a second chance then).

bluto,

The reason I listed the 10 verses (post #250, I think) is because of what Heb9:28 states here:

"a second time apart from a sin-offering [/sin] shall appear," or if you prefer, "a second time apart from sin shall appear,"


and the question we should ask ourselves is,

--what was the first time He "apart from sin appeared [G3708 - passive]"??

(what was that like? and when was it?? how did it occur? was it just ONE SINGULAR INSTANCE? did it transpire over the course of some time [severally]? was it all "IN PERSON" [flesh & bone standing before them]"? or were there at least two differing methods? and if so, what can we learn from them?)

The TEN VERSES I supplied tell us (the manner, the timing, the persons involved, the purpose, etc...)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Two things of note, one is at Acts 1:11, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Unto salvation (εις σωτηριαν — eis sōtērian). Final and complete salvation for “them that wait for him. Still no rapture first and then a final and complete salvation.. PS: Keep trying if you must!

The Acts 1:11 is telling the manner in which He will "return" (that is, to the earth): "will so come in like manner as ye have seen Him going into Heaven"... The one thing I would like to point out again, is that the Greek words used in this verse (regarding His visible ascension 40 days later) are in the PASSIVE and MIDDLE/PASSIVE voice ("having been taken up [passive]" and "going [middle or passive]") whereas when He fulfilled "firstfruit" ON FIRSTFRUIT [His Resurrection Day] (Lev23:10-12; 1Cor15:20, etc) the words used are "ACTIVE" ("I ASCEND [ACTIVE]" Jn20:17 and other verses in Jn16)...

He was ascending THAT DAY [FF/Resurrection Day], ACTIVELY, though NOT visibly "seen" by anyone [as in, watching Him GO UP], He only gave MM words TO "SAY UNTO" the disciples, which testimony they were expected to "believe," but later that day we see Jesus UPBRAIDING the 11, "because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen." [and this "testimony" is similar to what we see in 2Th1:10, that people will ("IN THAT [future] DAY") either come to BELIEVE or WILL NOT BELIEVE (i.e. 2Th2:10-12)]

 

[garee]

So you don't care about the definition of the word 'mark.' Why would you? If you were to accept the biblical definition of the word 'mark'/charagma, you would have to admit you're wrong. It's useless trying to convince Christians of truth, they make up their own truth.

The basic definition of the word proves you wrong.

This is the mark of the beast...

I would not chose a definition that detroys the hermeneutics . We walk by faith not by sight according to the prescriptions given us .Why destroy the faith principle for what I would call the Hollywood walking by sight interpretation, as that needed to understand parable like that of the mark of the beast(natural man) ?

Its an evil generation (natural unconverted man like Cain) that walks by sight seeking after a outward sign before they will beleive .

Makes me wonder, When he comes will he find the faith principle or men looking for miracles before they commit faith (belief) like the unbelieving Jew and gentiles (considered as antichrists)

while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”Revelation 14:11

This mark stands in direct contrast to the seal of Revelation 7:3–4, which alludes to a “mark” on the righteous in Ezekiel 9:4–6 The forehead and hand represent the will of man, not a literal hand or forehead.

The mark of a restless wanderer no Sabbath rest which comes from hearing and believing the gospel .Cain's heart remained hard all the days of his life suffering a living hell as a curse.

 

[garee]

The Acts 1:11 is telling the manner in which He will "return" (that is, to the earth): "will so come in like manner as ye have seen Him going into Heaven"... The one thing I would like to point out again, is that the Greek words used in this verse (regarding His visible ascension 40 days later) are in the PASSIVE and MIDDLE/PASSIVE voice ("having been taken up [passive]" and "going [middle or passive]") whereas when He fulfilled "firstfruit" ON FIRSTFRUIT [His Resurrection Day] (Lev23:10-12; 1Cor15:20, etc) the words used are "ACTIVE" ("I ASCEND [ACTIVE]" Jn20:17 and other verses in Jn16)...

He was ascending THAT DAY [FF/Resurrection Day], ACTIVELY, though NOT visibly "seen" by anyone [as in, watching Him GO UP], He only gave MM words TO "SAY UNTO" the disciples, which testimony they were expected to "believe," but later that day we see Jesus UPBRAIDING the 11, "because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen." [and this "testimony" is similar to what we see in 2Th1:10, that people will ("IN THAT [future] DAY") either come to BELIEVE or WILL NOT BELIEVE (i.e. 2Th2:10-12)]

Yes God is not a man as us. The one time demonstration in flesh that did not profit as a spiritual unseen work of the Spirit of Christ was all that was offered. He will not appear in the flesh ever again forever more. The veil is rent. Those looking for another fleshly demonstration simply are not walking by faith the eternal but are walking by sight after that seen, the temporal .

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet "now henceforth" know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Consider also the following:

Verses pertaining to Israel's FUTURE -

--Romans 9:26 [distinct from 9:25] / Hosea 1:10-11 [distinct from 2:23b]

--Romans 11:25 - "blindness... UNTIL" ["until" a specific thing]

--Hosea 5:15-6:3 - "I will go and return to My place, TILL they acknowledge their offence..." - "in their affliction they will seek Me early/earnestly"

--Micah 5:2-3 - "Therefore will I give them up UNTIL... THEN the remnant of his brethren shall RETURN"

--Daniel 12:1-4,10 - [at a specific point in time] "the wise [of Israel, per context] SHALL UNDERSTAND" and shall go on to DO specific things [v.3]

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [the dry bones prophecy]

--2 Corinthians 3:13-14,16 - "But their minds were blinded:... for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament... even unto this day... the vail is upon their heart"

--Acts 3:21 - "whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restitution of all things, OF WHICH GOD SPOKE by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [contrasted with the things He "kept hidden in God"]

--Genesis 45:1 - "There STOOD no man with him while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO unto his brethren" [see also Ezekiel 39:7 "SO [in this way] SHALL I MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of My people Israel..." [also in 38:14 "IN THAT DAY when My people of Israel..."] (I believe this Gog-Magog War is a part of the "SEAL 2 Wars" early in the future trib/70th Wk/7-yrs--)]--see ALSO the "IN THE NIGHT" phrases of Genesis 46:2/Daniel 7:7/1Th5:1-3 ["And God SPAKE UNTO Israel IN the visions OF THE NIGHT"; along with the sequence (again) noted in Matt22:7 [70ad events] then Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to His servants..." [I.e. 95ad--The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW UNTO His servants [7:4 for example] things which must come to pass [4:1 (future things)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--see also Luke 18:1-8 which follows on the heels of Luke 17:22-37--18:8 "He will avenge them IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and where is found the words "when the Son of man having come will he find the faith on the earth?" (recall, I had said ALL "Son of man cometh/shall come/coming/etc" refers to His Second Coming to the earth [NOT to our Rapture])]

--there are studies detailing how Paul is a "TYPE" of the future 144,000 [Rev7:4 and context; and why it was said of him "as one born out of due time" (that is, earlier than the rest...); and Acts 9:3-9,15-17,18 where it says he was "3 days without sight" once the "SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN" and "the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man" and "when his eyes were opened, he saw no man..." (see again 9:17--one of the 5 verses pertaining to PAUL, of the "Ten Verses" re: G3708 - passive)]


--oh, and one more: "[to the 12] ye shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL" [Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 (and the TIMING of this is supplied in Matt25:31-34, i.e. His Second Coming TO THE EARTH)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes God is not a man as us. The one time demonstration in flesh that did not profit as a spiritual unseen work of the Spirit of Christ was all that was offered. He will not appear in the flesh ever again forever more. The veil is rent. Those looking for another fleshly demonstration simply are not walking by faith the eternal but are walking by sight after that seen, the temporal .

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet "now henceforth" know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17

Here's how I understand that:

2 John 1:7 [unlike (at least) another couple of verses in his epistles that say "having come [PERFECT tense]" (or "has come [perfect tense]") 1Jn4:2-3] says instead, "those not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh [present participle]..."

https://biblehub.com/text/2_john/1-7.htm


Again, I supplied passages in my earlier post that speak to this.

 

[bluto]

The Acts 1:11 is telling the manner in which He will "return" (that is, to the earth): "will so come in like manner as ye have seen Him going into Heaven"... The one thing I would like to point out again, is that the Greek words used in this verse (regarding His visible ascension 40 days later) are in the PASSIVE and MIDDLE/PASSIVE voice ("having been taken up [passive]" and "going [middle or passive]") whereas when He fulfilled "firstfruit" ON FIRSTFRUIT [His Resurrection Day] (Lev23:10-12; 1Cor15:20, etc) the words used are "ACTIVE" ("I ASCEND [ACTIVE]" Jn20:17 and other verses in Jn16)...

He was ascending THAT DAY [FF/Resurrection Day], ACTIVELY, though NOT visibly "seen" by anyone [as in, watching Him GO UP], He only gave MM words TO "SAY UNTO" the disciples, which testimony they were expected to "believe," but later that day we see Jesus UPBRAIDING the 11, "because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen." [and this "testimony" is similar to what we see in 2Th1:10, that people will ("IN THAT [future] DAY") either come to BELIEVE or WILL NOT BELIEVE (i.e. 2Th2:10-12)]

I get what your saying tdw but at Acts 1:11 this was a "visible" ascension and His coming back a second time will also be a "visble" return. I'm not concerned with John 20:17 as to whether He was actually seen ascending or not seen. I don't see what that has to do with Acts 1:11?

I also have another question for you from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. When Jesus Christ (vs16) descends from heaven in the twinkling of an eye and we are caught up (vs17) to meet Him in the air do we return to heaven or do we land on the earth and thus we shall always be with the Lord?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Absolutely]

Yes the bride of Christ the church

Paul acting as surrogate mother the church as a metaphor speaks of being born again

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,Galatians 4:19

God is no respecter of persons in respect to the clay he forms Christ in.. Man can plant the incorruptible seed of God's word by which men are born again but only the Potter who forms Christ can cause the growth

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ, Jew or Gentile, male or female they will not rise to new eternal life on the last day, the second resurrection and final resurrection .

The metaphorical number 144,000 in the parable are the elect from the beginning of time (Jew and Gentile male and female )They alone are considered as virgins having not fornicated with the gods of this world, Satan. Called strange women

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:

These are they which were not defiled with women are the strange women, natural unconverted mankind, called the daughters of men in Genesis 6.

Paul again is used in a parable as a surrogate mother to represent the bride of Christ, the church, travailing in birth again until Christ be formed in Timothy as to the end of the goal, espousing timothy to Christ our husband as one that had not fornicated with the gods of this world, the strange women

2 Corinthians 11:2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

No they are 144k jews. Literal jews.
In fact the locusts are commanded not to hurt them.
You destroy the verses by ascribing a abstract to a clear group of jews

 

[Absolutely]

I get what your saying tdw but at Acts 1:11 this was a "visible" ascension and His coming back a second time will also be a "visble" return. I'm not concerned with John 20:17 as to whether He was actually seen ascending or not seen. I don't see what that has to do with Acts 1:11?

I also have another question for you from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. When Jesus Christ (vs16) descends from heaven in the twinkling of an eye and we are caught up (vs17) to meet Him in the air do we return to heaven or do we land on the earth and thus we shall always be with the Lord?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

As with the 5 wise virgins, we leave to the marriage chamber.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride
Even the foolish had enough awareness to watch and wait.

 

[Absolutely]

Boys, boys, boys, I get all that, I know it's not a 24hour day and in fact I never even thought of it as a 24 hour day. Look at the question again from Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world." Here we are some 2,000 years later and were still in the "birth pangs" and from the looks of things their getting worse day by day.

I'm also convinced that it will get much worse than it is now. So like I explained the Apostle Paul is actuall conforting the Thessalonian believers to be about the Lord's business and watch yourself as well. Please read 1 Thess 5. Then at 2 Thess we have chapter 1:6,7 dealing with the rest etc. Paul further goes on to explain not to be shaken from your composure 2 Thess 2. And at chapter 3 praying that the word of the Lord spreads.

I still do not see based on the Bible nor do I believe that there is a rapture, there is only one second coming, period. I still have not heard from you guys a resonable and biblical explanation of Hebrews 9:28. That verse explicitly says Jesus will appear a second time, not a rapture and then a second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You have been shown rev 14.
Your no rapture belief is totally destroyed.
Completely impossible

 

[Absolutely]

Here's something I ponder (in view of some other posts regarding it):

Revelation 14:14 says,

"And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown [stephanon], and in his hand a sharp sickle" (--ylt, esv, nasb, etc)

--why is there no definite article ["the"] in the Greek, before the phrase "son of man"? and why "like unto"?

--why is this one wearing a gold/golden "STEPHANON/crown" [recall, many were cast before the throne, back in 4:10], whereas in Rev19:12 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) it says of Jesus "on His head were many diadems/diademata" (a completely distinct kind of "crown")?

It is Jesus,agreed?

 

[garee]

No they are 144k jews. Literal jews.
In fact the locusts are commanded not to hurt them.
You destroy the verses by ascribing a abstract to a clear group of jews

A Jew is not one outwardly pertaining to the flesh but one inwardly born of the Spirit of Christ. If any man Jew or Gentile have not the eternal Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him as born again

Its never about what the eyes see

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.