Love your sense of humor, Bob. I was just checking to see if you were still with us and am glad to confirm that you are..
Rapture true or false
- Thread starter KeithAB
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Which is pretty much what you say about any and everyone that doesn't agree with you. Ever heard of 'crying wolf'?
In any case, if you are speaking of the rebuke against faith alone OSAS Christianity, then it's probably the most commonly accepted and cultish movement in Christianity. About the only Christians confessing Christ, that they will condemn as 'unsaved', are preachers of righteousness and justification by faith and practice.
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only....Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James{2:22}
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
So, they'll make a special exception to being saved and justified by confession of faith in Christ alone, in order to condemn any confessing Christian, that also preaches living the life to be justified by the faith...
Post a rapture of the ungodly.[/QUOTE]
Correct. You mean rapture of the godly.
Correct. Since there have already been many antichrists troubling the saints, both from within and without the churches of God, I would call it the last great tribulation of the last great AC on earth, before the Lord Himself returns to put a stop to it.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
By Revelation Scripture, it will at last be the world-wide persecution of the godly saints in Christ Jesus, by a false christ having converts of national and local rulers over all the earth...It will dwarf old Roman-world persecution. It will be headed this time with a Christ-confessing false prophet, and perhaps a natural Jew.
Correct. You mean rapture of the godly.
Correct. Since there have already been many antichrists troubling the saints, both from within and without the churches of God, I would call it the last great tribulation of the last great AC on earth, before the Lord Himself returns to put a stop to it.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
By Revelation Scripture, it will at last be the world-wide persecution of the godly saints in Christ Jesus, by a false christ having converts of national and local rulers over all the earth...It will dwarf old Roman-world persecution. It will be headed this time with a Christ-confessing false prophet, and perhaps a natural Jew.[/QUOTE]
Correct.
I replied the same thing to a member.
It was someone else's claim of a ungodly rapture.
I agree with you. The rapture is the saints.
( sometimes this site gets the QUOTE boxes all mixed up.)
Then that 5 min rule thingy. I have never understood why leaving mistakes is a good thing.
QUOTE
""Which is pretty much what you say about any and everyone that doesn't agree with you. Ever heard of 'crying wolf'""
You TOTALLY mis-charachtered me.
Lied about me.
If I CALL OUT ANYONE ...It is for going personal, or misrepresentation of SCRIPTURE.
Over and over I have stressed " leave all components on the table".
That is ALWAYS my mission.
What so they do instead???
Go personal.
They get push back.
If you don't like push back, then debate concept vs concept.
You have zero proof of what you are saying about me.
QUOTE
""In any case, if you are speaking of the rebuke against faith alone OSAS Christianity, then it's probably the most commonly accepted and cultish movement in Christianity. About the only Christians confessing Christ, that they will condemn as 'unsaved', are preachers of righteousness and justification by faith and practice.""
Osas is a two edged sword.
Either side can make their doctrinal defense.
Show me my opposition to osas.
Salvation, just for your info, is a person.
His name is Jesus.
People here think doctrine saves them.
Correct doctrine has NEVER SAVED ANYONE.
Note that in your advise to me concerning Salvation, your model is doctrine.
Cultish?
I don't agree. Much confusion about pre-, post-, or mid-trib rapture, is due to ignorance of there being two great tribulations prophesied, rather than only one.
I certainly was confused reading about the great tribulation prophesies, until I understood the difference between the tribulation upon the godly from the unrighteous, vs upon the ungodly from the righteous God.
That would be the two tribs:
The great tribulation upon the ungodly, is prophesied by Christ in Matthew 24
The great tribulation upon the godly, is prophesied by Christ in Rev 7.
At first glance, I'd say you were playing games with the term 'rapture'. However, if you are using it on purpose with knowledge, then I only partially disagree.
There will be Millennium saints living again to be judged and found written in the book of life.
However, the term rapture is specifically for the first resurrection and catching away of the saints into the air, to meet with the Lord.
And, rapture being a term of passionate delight, it certainly doesn't apply to the ungodly living again to be judged and cast into LOF.
In the first resurrection, only one people: the godly. With the rest of the dead, two different people: The godly and ungodly.
The rapture is universally signified to the first resurrection and catching away of saints, at the Lord's return. Not to any rest of the dead after His Millennium ceases on earth.
You may of course be an amil, that only believes in one resurrection and rapture at the end of this world? If so, when does the Lord Himself rule over the nations with His saints for a thousand years?
Correct.
I replied the same thing to a member.
It was someone else's claim of a ungodly rapture.
I agree with you. The rapture is the saints.
( sometimes this site gets the QUOTE boxes all mixed up.)
Then that 5 min rule thingy. I have never understood why leaving mistakes is a good thing.[/QUOTE]
I'm currently hearing from that person speaking of an ungodly 'rapture'. He/she either believes in two separate raptures before and after the Lord's Millennium. Or, is an amil that believes in only one resurrection and rapture at the end of this world. Or, something else.
In any case, it's universally agreed by even the ungodly, that the 'rapture' of the church is when only the church is resurrected and caught away from earth into the air. Leaving the unbelieving back on earth. That's where the phrase "Let behind" comes from...
It's that second part that is crying wolf: Accusing others of 'misrepresenting' Scripture. That's a personal judgment based upon disagreement. Which in itself is no big deal, but then going on to decry messenger's of Satan, just because of disagreement, is the wolf mongering I refer to.
You can keep it up as you wish, which you do frequently, but it becomes just another meaningless cry of wolf.
If you spend less time crying about the Satanic wolf in the mix, and simply prove what the Scripture says, then I'd spend more time hearing you. You are obviously well-read and learned in the Bible. I'm only interested in the resulting arguments of your study. The rest is just irrelevant nuisance to bypass.
I love push back from Scripture point by point. I disregard personal accusations of messaging for Satan as empty dross.
Agreed.
James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Agreed again. OSAS people believe faith in their doctrine alone saves them, even if disobeying Jesus Christ, and transgressing His law. That's why it's called salvation and justification by faith alone. (Some even capitalize Faith Alone, as though that makes it more powerful. I simply see it as making it some sort of idol. O Faith Alone!)
Agreed again. Just knowing correct doctrine of Christ does not justify anyone with God. Only the doers of His word are justified:
James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
More opposition to OSAS.
What advice?
Rapture as gathering of God's elect at Mount Olive upon the Lord's return is true; rapture as a sudden supernatural teleportation to heaven at a ramdon moment is false.
The Second Advent of Christ will be as THE KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, Commander of Heaven's Armies, Righteous Judge, Avenger of the oppressed, and the Warrier-King executing God's wrath upon the wicked.
Rather than the gentle & meek, teaching Messiah of His first ministry, Jesus' 1st Advent.
We need to be careful about "Misrepresenting our Lord Jesus and His CHARACTER, whether in willful malice, or ignorance , as do the "False Prophets" here and in this general world. ..... Becuz ...
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Revelation 19:11‑16
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, (Sacrificial Lamb) riding on a white horse, a sharp sword proceeding from his mouth … to judge and make war.” .......... At Jesus' Second Advent, Christ appears as:
1. “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” — Supreme Ruler
Revelation 19:16 (KJV)
“And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
This title shows His absolute authority over all earthly and heavenly powers.
2. Coming as a Conquering Warrior
Revelation 19:11 (KJV)
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
This is not the humble Messiah of His first coming—this is the Commander of Heaven’s armies.
3. His Eyes Like Flames — Symbol of Penetrating Judgment
Revelation 19:12 (KJV)
“His eyes were as a flame of fire…”
He sees every motive, every secret—nothing is hidden from His judgment.
4. Wearing Many Crowns — Universal Sovereignty
Revelation 19:12 (KJV)
“…and on his head were many crowns…”
These are diadems, not the crown of thorns—signifying royal authority.
5. His Garments Dipped in Blood — Symbol of Vengeance & Victory
Revelation 19:13 (KJV)
“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood…”
Compare: Isaiah 63:1–3, where the coming Messiah’s garments are stained from “treading the winepress” of divine wrath.
6. The Armies of Heaven Follow Him
Revelation 19:14 (KJV)
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
He returns at the head of countless angels, not alone.
7. Out of His Mouth Goes a Sharp Sword — Word of Judgment
Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations…”
This is the authoritative word of judgment, not a physical weapon.
8. He Treads the Winepress of God’s Wrath
Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
This is a direct reference to Isaiah 63 and represents divine judgment executed upon the wicked.
9. The Wicked Call for Rocks to Fall on Them
Revelation 6:16–17 (KJV)
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us… For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
This describes Christ returning in terrible majesty, not as the gentle carpenter of Nazareth.
10. He Comes in Flaming Fire
2 Thessalonians 1:7–8 (KJV)
“The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God…”
Clear picture of judgment—not grace.
11. Every Eye Shall See Him — A Global, Visible Event
Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him…”
He returns gloriously, publicly, and triumphantly. NOT secretly ( as in a "secret rapture" )
12. He Rewards the Righteous and Judges the Wicked
Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Christ returns as Judge — dispensing both salvation and destruction. NOT "OSAS"
Daniel 7:13‑14
“…he came with the clouds of heaven… and was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom… that all peoples… should serve him.”
Rather than the gentle & meek, teaching Messiah of His first ministry, Jesus' 1st Advent.
We need to be careful about "Misrepresenting our Lord Jesus and His CHARACTER, whether in willful malice, or ignorance , as do the "False Prophets" here and in this general world. ..... Becuz ...
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Revelation 19:11‑16
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, (Sacrificial Lamb) riding on a white horse, a sharp sword proceeding from his mouth … to judge and make war.” .......... At Jesus' Second Advent, Christ appears as:
1. “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” — Supreme Ruler
Revelation 19:16 (KJV)
“And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
This title shows His absolute authority over all earthly and heavenly powers.
2. Coming as a Conquering Warrior
Revelation 19:11 (KJV)
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
This is not the humble Messiah of His first coming—this is the Commander of Heaven’s armies.
3. His Eyes Like Flames — Symbol of Penetrating Judgment
Revelation 19:12 (KJV)
“His eyes were as a flame of fire…”
He sees every motive, every secret—nothing is hidden from His judgment.
4. Wearing Many Crowns — Universal Sovereignty
Revelation 19:12 (KJV)
“…and on his head were many crowns…”
These are diadems, not the crown of thorns—signifying royal authority.
5. His Garments Dipped in Blood — Symbol of Vengeance & Victory
Revelation 19:13 (KJV)
“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood…”
Compare: Isaiah 63:1–3, where the coming Messiah’s garments are stained from “treading the winepress” of divine wrath.
6. The Armies of Heaven Follow Him
Revelation 19:14 (KJV)
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
He returns at the head of countless angels, not alone.
7. Out of His Mouth Goes a Sharp Sword — Word of Judgment
Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations…”
This is the authoritative word of judgment, not a physical weapon.
8. He Treads the Winepress of God’s Wrath
Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
This is a direct reference to Isaiah 63 and represents divine judgment executed upon the wicked.
9. The Wicked Call for Rocks to Fall on Them
Revelation 6:16–17 (KJV)
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us… For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
This describes Christ returning in terrible majesty, not as the gentle carpenter of Nazareth.
10. He Comes in Flaming Fire
2 Thessalonians 1:7–8 (KJV)
“The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God…”
Clear picture of judgment—not grace.
11. Every Eye Shall See Him — A Global, Visible Event
Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him…”
He returns gloriously, publicly, and triumphantly. NOT secretly ( as in a "secret rapture" )
12. He Rewards the Righteous and Judges the Wicked
Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Christ returns as Judge — dispensing both salvation and destruction. NOT "OSAS"
Daniel 7:13‑14
“…he came with the clouds of heaven… and was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom… that all peoples… should serve him.”
** The “Son of Man” receives an everlasting kingdom after the time of the saints’ translation.**
Seen as the same event described in Rev 19, confirming the royal aspect of the second advent.
Blessed Sabbath, FolksBefore accusing others of mishandling the word of God, we need to avoid misrepresenting what others say, but taking it out of context.
ATG Said:
His second coming with also come in peace to the Israel of God,... but after their resurrection and rapture, will be tribulation and death to the rebellious.
If you don't believe the Lord comes again first with everlasting peace for His own faithful elect, before destroying the wicked, then show why Jesus isn't speaking peace to them that wait for Him:
Jhn 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. And if I go to prepare a place for you. I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
2Ti 4:6
I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Well said. Except they will first be gathered to meet the Lord in the air. And after His wrath and battle at Armageddon, He will stand on Mt Zion with a roar of victory over all the nations of the earth.
Good way to put it. Removes some of the 'Christian mysticism' of people ignorant of the truth of Scripture.
Rapture is defined as any intense feeling of joy.
Have you never heard how she listened with rapture...?
I've given my explanations. If there is any specific error, that you want to directly address, then I'd be glad to see it. Otherwise, I don't also need to now debate redefinition of words...
1 Tim 6:3… doting about questions and strifes of words,
No problem. So you preach two raptures: The first resurrection of the saints before Christ's Millennium, and then for the Millennial saints with rest of the dead after the thousand years expire?
If you want to call that next resurrection rapturous for those Millennial saints, then no problem. However, the universal Christian tradition of the rapture of the church, is at the Lord's 2nd coming and meeting Him in the air over the earth...
Amils place that one and only rapture at the end of this world, without any thousand year reign with His raptured saints on earth.