Rapture true or false

[Rob7]

Why is it that so many churches, doctrines, people, want to follow the teachings of the rapture when in so many places God tell us it is a lie?

Becuz ! Most professed Christian's are following the Dispensational doctrine, today, that was developed by the Roman Church, to be a counter argument, ... reply to the Protestant Reformers. As ALL the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, proclaimed and battled the Papacy, as The Antichrist. by the reformer's direct confrontations with and understanding of scripture, specifically correct Bible prophecy interpretations.

… this is a VERY brief explanation of the peoples and progress of the development of dispensationalism to become the predominate understanding by professed Christians today.

There are three main different methods of interpreting prophecy;

Historicist, the way Jesus proclaimed prophecy.

Preterism, an approach to biblical eschatology, was first systematically expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar in the 17th century during the Counter-Reformation

Futurism, … was developed by Jesuit Francisco Ribera, who published his futurist views in 1585 at the request of the Catholic Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, as part of the Counter-Protestant Reformation.

This futurist "theory" was picked up by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), and developed into what is now referred to as Dispensationalism, which was then made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible, which used this theory in it's "study side notes". The study bible became popular in many theological schools, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, like Moody Bible Institute 1886

"According to this futurist view, the Antichrist was to come from the tribe of Dan, and would make his appearance after the secret rapture. He was to rebuild the temple, abolish the Christian faith, pretend to be God and then conquer the world in the space of three‑and‑a‑half years. Furthermore, futurism teaches that, instead of coming with the clouds with great power and great glory, our Saviour will come secretly and silently to take away his Church ‑ a teaching foreign to that of the apostles.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"The apostles referred to the spirit of antichrist already working in their time, to be fully revealed at the end of time. There is no question of referring to the antichrist power in the past. Jesus in Matthew 24 speaks of this great apostasy as a future event, not a past occurrence. In the nineteenth century, the Protestant world, starting with the Anglican priest Samuel R. Maitland, accepted the futurist teachings and saw in it an opportunity to cease hostilities with Rome.

The prophetic interpretation of futurism was further refined, when, according to S.P. Tregelles, dispensationalism originated in an “utterance” by means of tongues in Edward Irving’s church in England. The futurist dispensationalistic mode of prophetic interpretation has been accepted by most Protestant churches today, and is the form of interpretation employed in the Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensationalism is a product of futurism and it teaches that history is divided into seven dispensations, a seven year tribulation period, ~~> Ref. Prof. Pastor Walter Veith's, book "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error"

( Dispensationalism, with a "secret" rapture of God's Church, and an understanding of the Book of Revelations, that points to a "future Antichrist" , who confronts a "literal Israel" , rather the one we have HERE & NOW, , deceiving the world and fixing to persecute, we the remnant Church "Spiritual Israel" of God Revelations 12:17. )..

**NOTICE**
This interpretation reflects the system of the RCC, not individual Catholics, and warns against conflating the prophecy with personal faith. This view aligns with historicist Protestant eschatology.

Concerning the first beast of Revelation 13:4 (rising from the sea, described in Revelation 13:1–10) symbolizes the Roman Catholic Church in its role as a persecuting religious-political power, specifically the Papacy. this beast fulfills biblical prophecies, a system that opposes God’s authority, has created, and promotes "Dispensationalism" which is the False Prophet of Revelations 16:13 and enforces false worship. Key identifiers include:

1. Blasphemous Claims: The beast’s "blasphemous names" (Revelation 13:1) align with papal titles like Vicar of Christ and claims to infallibility, usurping Christ’s unique role as head of the church.
2. Persecution: The beast’s war against saints (Revelation 13:7) mirrors the medieval Church’s suppression of reformers and dissenters.
3. Prophetic Timeline: The 42-month/1,260-day period (Revelation 13:5, interpreted as 1,260 years) corresponds to the Papacy’s dominance from 538 CE (Justinian’s decree) to 1798 CE (Napoleon’s imprisonment of the Pope).
4. Mortal Wound Healed: The beast’s "deadly wound" (Revelation 13:3) refers to the Papacy’s loss of temporal power in 1798, with its modern resurgence seen as the "healing" of that wound.

Dispensationalists use a literal interpretation of the Bible, in opposition to Jesus' Spirit, and the Apostle Paul who states;
1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned".

 

[Rob7]

@GRACE_ambassador , @Dino246 , @ewq1938 , @Edify

Most professed Christian's are following the Dispensational doctrine, today, that was developed by the Roman Church, to be a counter argument, ... a reply to the Protestant Reformers. as part of the RCC's Counter-Protestant Reformation

The “False Prophet”; By the way the Protestant Reformers understood Revelation;

The False Prophet of Revelation is the Apostate Protestantism in the United States, especially in its end-time role of promoting Dispensationalism and deceptive religious influence and urging civil powers to enforce false worship.

Ref. Revelation 13 and Revelation 16, applies the symbols to:

1. The “second beast” of Revelation 13 → Protestant America, which “speaks as a dragon.”
2. This second beast later becomes identified as the False Prophet in Revelation 19:20.
3. Its role is to deceive the world through miracles, signs, and the promotion of false worship, working alongside the papal power (“the beast”) and Satan (“the dragon”).

When Protestant America, abandons the principles of religious liberty and unites with the Papacy to enforce worship laws, becomes the false prophet fulfilling the prophetic description in Revelation.

The exact term “false prophet” appears in three places:

1. Revelation 16:13
“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.”
This identifies the end-time trio:

• Dragon → Satan / spiritualism
• Beast → Papal Rome
• False Prophet → Apostate Protestantism (the second beast of Rev. 13)

2. Revelation 19:20
“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast…”
The false prophet works miraculous signs to lead people to worship the beast and receive its mark.

3. Revelation 20:10
“…and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are…”
This shows their final destruction after the millennium.
Conclusion;

• The “second beast” (Revelation 13:11–17) = the same power later called “the False Prophet.”
• This power deceives by miraculous signs.
• It leads the world to adopt worship practices contrary to God’s commandments. A religion of disobedience.
• It plays a major role in enforcing the mark of the beast. The Mark of Authority to the Papacy, the Pope, "the man of lawlessness", the man of "disobedience"

A representative statement from The Great Controversy: by Ellen G White

“Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions… The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf… and under the influence of this threefold union, this country shall follow in the steps of Rome.”
(GC 588)​

This aligns exactly with the trio named in Revelation 16:13: dragon, beast, and false prophet.

• The False Prophet in Revelation = Apostate Protestantism, especially in end-time America.
• Referenced in Revelation:
  • Revelation 16:13
  • Revelation 19:20
  • Revelation 20:10
• This power is the same as the second beast of Revelation 13, which performs miracles, deceives the world, and urges allegiance to the first beast.

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus stated in Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword,"

Emphasizing that His mission was not to establish outward tranquility but to confront sin and call people to allegiance. The "sword" is a metaphor for division, representing the truth of the gospel that separates belief from unbelief, loyalty from rebellion, and light from darkness. This division is not a call to physical violence but reflects the inevitable conflict that arises when individuals choose to follow Christ, sometimes even causing rifts within families, as illustrated in Matthew 10:35-36. While Jesus offers internal peace with God, His message often provokes external conflict with a world that rejects Him, preparing disciples for the challenges of faith.

Anyone can do what you do.
Attacking God's people by asserting they are false and born of satan.
Anyone can do it.
It won't be right , but maybe they are so void of bible knowledge that they hope to discredit innocent people for ego's sake.

BTW all false prophets think they are right and the whole of God's people are misguided castaways

Kinda like how you do and think.

 

[Psalm1]

Becuz ! Most professed Christian's are following the Dispensational doctrine, today, that was developed by the Roman Church, to be a counter argument, ... reply to the Protestant Reformers. As ALL the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, proclaimed and battled the Papacy, as The Antichrist. by the reformer's direct confrontations with and understanding of scripture, specifically correct Bible prophecy interpretations.

… this is a VERY brief explanation of the peoples and progress of the development of dispensationalism to become the predominate understanding by professed Christians today.

There are three main different methods of interpreting prophecy;

Historicist, the way Jesus proclaimed prophecy.

Preterism, an approach to biblical eschatology, was first systematically expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar in the 17th century during the Counter-Reformation

Futurism, … was developed by Jesuit Francisco Ribera, who published his futurist views in 1585 at the request of the Catholic Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, as part of the Counter-Protestant Reformation.

This futurist "theory" was picked up by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), and developed into what is now referred to as Dispensationalism, which was then made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible, which used this theory in it's "study side notes". The study bible became popular in many theological schools, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, like Moody Bible Institute 1886

"According to this futurist view, the Antichrist was to come from the tribe of Dan, and would make his appearance after the secret rapture. He was to rebuild the temple, abolish the Christian faith, pretend to be God and then conquer the world in the space of three‑and‑a‑half years. Furthermore, futurism teaches that, instead of coming with the clouds with great power and great glory, our Saviour will come secretly and silently to take away his Church ‑ a teaching foreign to that of the apostles.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"The apostles referred to the spirit of antichrist already working in their time, to be fully revealed at the end of time. There is no question of referring to the antichrist power in the past. Jesus in Matthew 24 speaks of this great apostasy as a future event, not a past occurrence. In the nineteenth century, the Protestant world, starting with the Anglican priest Samuel R. Maitland, accepted the futurist teachings and saw in it an opportunity to cease hostilities with Rome.

The prophetic interpretation of futurism was further refined, when, according to S.P. Tregelles, dispensationalism originated in an “utterance” by means of tongues in Edward Irving’s church in England. The futurist dispensationalistic mode of prophetic interpretation has been accepted by most Protestant churches today, and is the form of interpretation employed in the Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensationalism is a product of futurism and it teaches that history is divided into seven dispensations, a seven year tribulation period, ~~> Ref. Prof. Pastor Walter Veith's, book "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error"

( Dispensationalism, with a "secret" rapture of God's Church, and an understanding of the Book of Revelations, that points to a "future Antichrist" , who confronts a "literal Israel" , rather the one we have HERE & NOW, , deceiving the world and fixing to persecute, we the remnant Church "Spiritual Israel" of God Revelations 12:17. )..

**NOTICE**
This interpretation reflects the system of the RCC, not individual Catholics, and warns against conflating the prophecy with personal faith. This view aligns with historicist Protestant eschatology.

Concerning the first beast of Revelation 13:4 (rising from the sea, described in Revelation 13:1–10) symbolizes the Roman Catholic Church in its role as a persecuting religious-political power, specifically the Papacy. this beast fulfills biblical prophecies, a system that opposes God’s authority, has created, and promotes "Dispensationalism" which is the False Prophet of Revelations 16:13 and enforces false worship. Key identifiers include:

1. Blasphemous Claims: The beast’s "blasphemous names" (Revelation 13:1) align with papal titles like Vicar of Christ and claims to infallibility, usurping Christ’s unique role as head of the church.
2. Persecution: The beast’s war against saints (Revelation 13:7) mirrors the medieval Church’s suppression of reformers and dissenters.
3. Prophetic Timeline: The 42-month/1,260-day period (Revelation 13:5, interpreted as 1,260 years) corresponds to the Papacy’s dominance from 538 CE (Justinian’s decree) to 1798 CE (Napoleon’s imprisonment of the Pope).
4. Mortal Wound Healed: The beast’s "deadly wound" (Revelation 13:3) refers to the Papacy’s loss of temporal power in 1798, with its modern resurgence seen as the "healing" of that wound.

Dispensationalists use a literal interpretation of the Bible, in opposition to Jesus' Spirit, and the Apostle Paul who states;
1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned".

Pure baloney.
Then you insist your HYPER SPIRITUALIZING Is from God.

That is exactly how cults get going.

 

[ewq1938]

Futurism, … was developed by Jesuit Francisco Ribera, who published his futurist views in 1585 at the request of the Catholic Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, as part of the Counter-Protestant Reformation.

Misleading since this is against dispensationalism's version of futurism NOT actual Futurism which has it's roots in the bible, back to the OT. Futurism is from rthe bible and is the root of prophecy itself.

It is also wrong because Pretrib was an issue even in Paul's time so he had to address it and teach that two main events had to happen before the rapture happened and that results in a posttrib view straight from the bible.

 

[ATG]

Jesus stated in Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword,"

Emphasizing that His mission was not to establish outward tranquility but to confront sin and call people to allegiance. The "sword" is a metaphor for division, representing the truth of the gospel that separates belief from unbelief, loyalty from rebellion, and light from darkness. This division is not a call to physical violence but reflects the inevitable conflict that arises when individuals choose to follow Christ, sometimes even causing rifts within families, as illustrated in Matthew 10:35-36. While Jesus offers internal peace with God, His message often provokes external conflict with a world that rejects Him, preparing disciples for the challenges of faith.

His first coming to earth was in peace, that was rejected by others and ended in His death.

His second coming with also come in peace to the Israel of God, but after their resurrection and rapture, will be tribulation and death to the rebellious.

Then finally His promised kingdom reign to peace and righteousness will be over all the earth for thousand years.

You are correct at this time, that His ministry and service is not a call to a so-called 'church militant', using force to proselytize unbelievers into a secular gvt.

If Christians are in power, then we should follow the God's example of justice under one law for citizen and stranger alike. And if any believe not, then bear witness to the truth. And if any naming Christ will not hear and obey the Scriptures, then to let alone the disobedient heretic.

 

[ATG]

It is also wrong because Pretrib was an issue even in Paul's time so he had to address it and teach that two main events had to happen before the rapture happened and that results in a posttrib view straight from the bible.

The confusion about pre and post trib rapture, is rooted in ignorance two kinds of tribulation in Scripture: The tribulation and wrath of the ungodly upon the godly, vs the tribulation and wrath of God unon the ungodly.

The rapture of the godly at Jesus' return, is post-trib of the beast's war upon the Lord's saints, and pre-trib of the Lamb's war upon the beast's followers.

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Th 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Rom 2:7
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
2Th 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture of the godly at Jesus' return, is post-trib of the beast's war upon the Lord's saints, and pre-trib of the Lamb's war upon the beast's followers.

"tribulation" is best used in the way Jesus used it as the time the AC rules the world just prior to the second coming. Using trib as part of God's wrath will confuse ppl.

so it's trib, then rapture then God's wrath in that order.

 

[Rob7]

Misleading since this is against dispensationalism's version of futurism NOT actual Futurism which has it's roots in the bible, back to the OT. Futurism is from rthe bible and is the root of prophecy itself.
It is also wrong because Pretrib was an issue even in Paul's time so he had to address it and teach that two main events had to happen before the rapture happened and that results in a posttrib view straight from the bible.

Sorry friend, but your statements are just your presumptuous opinions, WITHOUT historical or scriptural support , to back it up. Please try again using bible verses, for us to "reason together" as Bereans. (Isaiah 1:18) as I have done with Historical FACT, exposing the "Dragon, Beast & False Prophet. of Revelation 16:13.

Where is this "actual futurism" you speak of in the OT? It wouldn't be Daniel 9:27 ? ... Where Jesuit Francisco Ribera corrupted Jesus' 70 Week prophecy ?... taking the last week, ( which is about Jesus) and throwing it 2000 years into the "futurist" , (NOW) and making it about "the AntiChrist" who comes at some "Future"-ist time, in our future, to help create Darby's futurist dispensational "7 years Tribulation", ... Would it ...?

We can discuss that if you wish ... (Please reference where "post-trib and pre-trib were an issue for Paul", so I can address what your talking about, please.)

and, WHY ! Would you take the word of a Jesuit priest, over the Prophetic Word of Jesus? Or believe the theological understanding (of a corrupt lawyer, who left his wife,) over the Protestant Reformers who translated the Bible into German and English.

In my opinion, aligning with scripture, ... it's because mankind prefers a theology of "disobedience and yet Salvation." over "The Way" of obedience to Father God. Jeremiah 17:9 "Once saved, always saved," "Being saving IN our sin, rather than from our sin" (our carnal nature, the natural man's love of self, rather than the LOVE of Jesus ) Self-Righteousness as opposed to Christ and HIS Righteousness.
Sorry Folks, ... your mis-taken by Satan

As in the days of Noah, the door of probation is fixing to close and y'all need to heed the WARNING .. " Fear God and give HIM Glory, for the hour of His Judgement is come. Revelation 14:7 ... & As in the days of Noah. Matthew 24"27-39

Matthew 37-40
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, ( Probation closed, with the closing of the door... no 7 yrs period,) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; ( No one was left after this "rapture" were there ? ) ... so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. ( Here's your "rapture" ... as in the days of Noe, one raptured with Jesus, ( the Ark) the other left to immediate destruction, by FIRE, ... this time. ... You'll miss being taken, because of Satan.

 

[Rob7]

Self-Righteousness as opposed to Christ and HIS Righteousness, ... We are mis-taken, by Satan.

We are ALL DELUSIONAL, ( to one degree or another) being deluded. by Satan, by our nature, carnally, because of believing Satan and his self-righteousness. (eg. prideful and self-centered-ness), lacking love for God and our neighbors (Luke 10:27). When born and reaching an age of consent (decision), to be able to accept the Spirit of Christ, the indwelling of that Spirit (Galatians 2:20) we start the process of sanctification, being a life long process, of becoming sanctified, by beholding ( by God's Grace, thru Faith, prayer & studying The Word Jesus, and constantly being centered on Jesus) we become like Him, having His Righteousness, by His Spirit's indwelling, which looks like LOVE, to the Father & our neighbors, obedience to the Will of God. ( ie. The 10 Commandments = the Law of LOVE. , Matthew 22:37-40, 1 John 4:8-10 )

2 Corinthians 3:18

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.​

Matthew 28:20

"Teaching them to observe all things (which I am attempting (Paul's struggle)/ race) to do, by the power of His Spirit, who dwells in me) whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen. ( The Righteousness of Christ's spirit, indwelling )​

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (the Antichrist) ... And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, (The Way) that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (dispensationalism) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ​

Self-righteousness, rather than the Righteousness of Christ.​

 

[Psalm1]

Misleading since this is against dispensationalism's version of futurism NOT actual Futurism which has it's roots in the bible, back to the OT. Futurism is from rthe bible and is the root of prophecy itself.

It is also wrong because Pretrib was an issue even in Paul's time so he had to address it and teach that two main events had to happen before the rapture happened and that results in a posttrib view straight from the bible.

Jesus said the rapture is pretribulation.

plus, Jesus gave us 2 escape verses and commanded us to pray to be WORTHY to escape.
Obviously those unworthy ones do stay for beheading by the AC.

Hard to refute the bible

 

[Psalm1]

"tribulation" is best used in the way Jesus used it as the time the AC rules the world just prior to the second coming. Using trib as part of God's wrath will confuse ppl.

so it's trib, then rapture then God's wrath in that order.

That would be mid 7 yr trib. Rapture that some have theorized.

That does not work.
Jesus gave the setting in mat 24 as normal life.
That mid trib scenario you point to DEFINITELY HAS NO NORMAL LIFE at that theorized rapture timetable.
So mid trib is off the table immediately as Jesus has depicted.

 

[Psalm1]

His first coming to earth was in peace, that was rejected by others and ended in His death.

His second coming with also come in peace to the Israel of God, but after their resurrection and rapture, will be tribulation and death to the rebellious.

Then finally His promised kingdom reign to peace and righteousness will be over all the earth for thousand years.

You are correct at this time, that His ministry and service is not a call to a so-called 'church militant', using force to proselytize unbelievers into a secular gvt.

If Christians are in power, then we should follow the God's example of justice under one law for citizen and stranger alike. And if any believe not, then bear witness to the truth. And if any naming Christ will not hear and obey the Scriptures, then to let alone the disobedient heretic.

That is the "kingdom now" movement that has been around since I was saved in 1976.

But the rapture is pretrib as Jesus told us.

 

[Psalm1]

Misleading since this is against dispensationalism's version of futurism NOT actual Futurism which has it's roots in the bible, back to the OT. Futurism is from rthe bible and is the root of prophecy itself.

It is also wrong because Pretrib was an issue even in Paul's time so he had to address it and teach that two main events had to happen before the rapture happened and that results in a posttrib view straight from the bible.

The 2 events you are referring to,are "apostacy", and "the revealing of the AC", at the start of the 7 yr trib.

Lines up perfectly with the pretrib rapture doctrine!
We see the AC come, at the beginning of the 7 yr covenant.
(Revealed to us that are paying attention, even before he takes power!)
The church needs to look up "revealed"
Then look up "in power"

The bible says "revealed"...then the rapture.
BOTH ARE PRETRIB...according to the bible.

Pretrib rapture as Jesus taught in mat 24.

Then VIVIDLY painted the rapture in mat 25 virgin parable.

 

[Psalm1]

So you say. Why not? (There is no harvest in Acts 1. The Lord does not harvest Himself)



Once again, you only say so. (Only Matthew 24 speaks of gathering.)



And again, so you say. Prove that the harvest in Rev 14 is mid-tribulation.


No, that is why you must prove your doctrine. Just saying so about Scripture, doesn't prove it's so.

I now see the main difference and conflict between our arguments:

You just say so about some verses of Scripture, without proving it. You somehow believe your personal word proves something, and ought be accepted.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I give other Scripture to prove what I say about the same verses, and so let the Scriptures prove themselves.

2Co 13:1
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture.



Otherwise, just saying someone is wrong, is meaningless. It just shows a failed argument, that resorts to personal proclamations of hot air. And the reason for it, is also likely due to others giving other Scriptures to prove your personal opinions about them, are erroneous.

QUOTE
""Once again, you only say so. (Only Matthew 24 speaks of gathering.)""
(Your answer to the 3 gatherings i showed you of rev 14.)

3 gatherings.
Impossible to miss.
But you did!

 

[ATG]

"tribulation" is best used in the way Jesus used it as the time the AC rules the world just prior to the second coming. Using trib as part of God's wrath will confuse ppl.

so it's trib, then rapture then God's wrath in that order.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I completely understand and appreciate your suggestion, and may start following it.

However, since the common debate is about pre-post- or mid-tribulation, then the use of the word is important. And since Scripture uses tribulation in both cases, then it's at least instructive to just quote them. That way honest Bible readers and can see the difference in Scripture for themselves.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You are one of the few serious Bible readers, that has at least acknowledged the argument difference.

I can simply say for the rapture, I am pre-trib upon the ungodly.

 

[ATG]

In my opinion, aligning with scripture, ... it's because mankind prefers a theology of "disobedience and yet Salvation." over "The Way" of obedience to Father God. Jeremiah 17:9 "Once saved, always saved," "Being saving IN our sin, rather than from our sin" (our carnal nature, the natural man's love of self, rather than the LOVE of Jesus ) Self-Righteousness as opposed to Christ and HIS Righteousness.
Sorry Folks, ... your mis-taken by Satan

Well said. I could make the case, that 'faith alone' OSAS is the most common sectarian cult in all of Christianity, beginning in the time of the apostles, simply put:
Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

But how does this tie in with 'futurism', and what is futurism?

 

[Psalm1]

so it's trib, then rapture then God's wrath in that order.

Thanks. I completely understand and appreciate your suggestion, and may start following it.

However, since the common debate is about pre-post- or mid-tribulation, then the use of the word is important. And since Scripture uses tribulation in both cases, then it's at least instructive to just quote them. That way honest Bible readers and can see the difference in Scripture for themselves.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You are one of the few serious Bible readers, that has at least acknowledged the argument difference.

I can simply say for the rapture, I am pre-trib upon the ungodly.[/QUOTE]
Post a rapture of the ungodly.

The bible speaks of a 7 yr covenant made by the AC.
The covenant becomes more intense in the last half.
The trb vs wrath Labels are a modern reference.

 

[Psalm1]

Well said. I could make the case, that 'faith alone' OSAS is the most common sectarian cult in all of Christianity, beginning in the time of the apostles, simply put:
Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

But how does this tie in with 'futurism', and what is futurism?

When a person's argument is weak as in rob7, they then go on "attack the opponents motive, charachter, and Christianity", mode.

Ahem...revealing that attacking the brethren and trying to destroy their testimony is THE JOB OF SATAN!

HILARIOUS.
Lining up with satan to attack tge brethren.

....all over doctrinal differences.
Sad and ghetto.

 

[ATG]

That is the "kingdom now" movement that has been around since I was saved in 1976.

Correct, though the kingdom now movement is the more moderate protestant version of old Holy Roman church militant, that used physical violence to 'proselytize', and torture to 'conform' doctrine to the Popish see.

It's only the older version that preaches ongoing pseudo- millennialism, where Jesus' return is only spiritual and enforced by His spiritually risen and 'reigning' servants.

But the rapture is pretrib as Jesus told us.

Correct. Pretribulation upon the ungodly.