Rapture true or false

[Psalm1]

Correct. Paul is speaking of the one and only rapture of the church at the Lord's return.

The rest of the dead will not live again, until after Jesus' millennial reign on earth with His raptured saints.

The rest of the dead will include all the wicked not in the Lord's rapture, as well as all the just and unjust during the Lord's Millennium.



True. Or, twist 10 verses to cast down one opposing verse, then make the false assertion "interpretation " written in their own minds.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Instead of blasting some general spew at my post show me where the rapture verses are wrong one at a time.

Be big and debate concept vs concept.

I know it is out of your box to debate honestly.
Try hard.
Take one of the rapture verses and prove it wrong.

Your little "attack the opponents character" verses methodology is juvenile.
Trying desperately to divert the debate.

That reveals your inability to go toe to toe with me honestly.

When you go against the verses in the bible maybe you will wake up.

 

[Psalm1]

The beginning of Rev 7 is the first resurrection of all Old and New Testaments saints. The whole earth is made still at Christ's coming, and the power of His resurrection is seen, when He changes all His saints to ascend and meet Him in the air.

The Beginning of Rev 14 is all the redeemed and resurrected Israel of God in the air singing their new song of glory from God:

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They are doing so, while the last hour of the Lamb's wrath is upon all the inhabitants of the earth:

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The wholly redeemed and resurrected 144,000 saints of God, will be all the believers of the Old and new Testaments, given by Moses and the Lamb Jesus Christ.

The second half of Rev 7 is all the saints of God from righteous Abel, to the end of the Lord's reign on earth, that are found written in the Lamb's book of life, and will be without number, nor signified by any number, such as 144,000.


Jesus resurrects them from earth, and His angels gather them from heaven, to meet Jesus in the air:

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle…And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Before the Lord's return, as in the days of Noah, the unbelievers shall rejoice in ungodliness, while persecuting the godly.

Rev 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And as the flood was disbelieved and sudden upon all the earth, so shall the coming of the Lord with glory. And as the ark was carried away above the waters of the flood over all the earth, so shall the resurrected saints ascend above the wrath of the Lamb upon the earth.


Great tribulation and wrath upon the godly all over the earth, with great worshipping and rejoicing in the beast.

1Th 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.




See above for Jesus resurrecting His saints unto Himself, at His return with clouds and glory.



The disobedient believers, that name Christ with the lips, will also be caught unawares by His coming. They will be appointed His wrath with the unbelieving evil-doers of the earth.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/48/s_953048
Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psalm1 said:
Ask them to unpack rev 14:14 HONESTLY.


Your reply;
"See above for Jesus resurrecting His saints unto Himself, at His return with clouds and glory."

I would say " nice try" but it is just postribber grabbing verses and throwing them up against the wall hoping it sticks.

You should carefully read and not twist verses.
Rev 14:14 is not, and CAN NOT BE The second coming on white horses.

Why would you do that??????
Do try and not misplace something that blatantly.

The second coming of rev 19, on millions of horses, with a warrior Jesus, holding a sword, in his mouth, SECIFICALLY to kill the ac and his army.
Is the second coming with no rapture anywhere in Rev 19.

Rev 19 is the second coming, and is NOT , NOR CAN ANY POSTRIBBER MODIFICATIONS make it resemble rev 14:14.

It just is NOT possible.

That is so dishonest and reckless for postribbers to twist God's word.

 

[Psalm1]

The state of unbelief is damnation.

That is revealed in the end Times debate.
Pretribbers own end times and force postribs to go against the bible.

Like ducks in a barrel.

Why do you think they all get mad and do their character assassination games?

They get owned. That is why.

 

[ATG]

Then Jesus preaching to the captives in paradise was a waste of timevsince they already were in christ before the cross.

Since what Jesus preached to the captives in paradise is not made known by Scripture, then no one can say what He preached to the captives in paradise, whether preaching the gospel and/or prophecying those things which are to come.

And the Scriptures are given, that the OT saints believed in Christ and died in faith, are also now the bodily dead in Christ.

All saints that die in Christ until His return to earth, from righteous Abel to that day and hour, shall be resurrected by Christ at that day and hour.

Those alive one earth and remain believing in Christ Jesus at His return, shall be changed immortal at that same day and hour.

 

[ATG]

You post verses that we all know and use, then spin it via your great leap to conclusions.

And those verses, you spin away from.

I quote Scripture and give a normal sense of them, while you give personal conjecture without Scripture.

Neh 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

We can only quote Scripture and give it's normal sense to understand. We don't force anyone to understand.

 

[Me_Clay]

That is revealed in the end Times debate.
Pretribbers own end times and force postribs to go against the bible.

Like ducks in a barrel.

Why do you think they all get mad and do their character assassination games?

They get owned. That is why.

Hey Psalm1, I'm sorry I dont really understand what you mean here?

 

[ATG]

Instead of blasting some general spew at my post

I thought I was responding and agreeing with Gideon 300

show me where the rapture verses are wrong one at a time.

I don't blast Scriptures. I only show by Scripture to agree or disagree with someone's use or misuse of them.

Your little "attack the opponents character" verses methodology is juvenile.

You began to hint at getting personal in the last post, and now you resort to making personal accusations.

Unfortunately, you take correction too personal. It's the final stage of a failed argument.

When you stick to the argument at hand, then I'll be glad to continue. Otherwise, I'll no longer be responding to your personal issues and attacks.

 

[Me_Clay]

I thought I was responding and agreeing with Gideon 300



I don't blast Scriptures. I only show by Scripture to agree or disagree with someone's use or misuse of them.


You began to hint at getting personal in the last post, and now you resort to making personal accusations.

Unfortunately, you take correction too personal. It's the final stage of a failed argument.

When you stick to the argument at hand, then I'll be glad to continue. Otherwise, I'll no longer be responding to your personal issues and attacks.

Common conversation here due to the last days we are in now.

 

[ATG]

Psalm1 said:

Ask them to unpack rev 14:14 HONESTLY.

Your reply;
"See above for Jesus resurrecting His saints unto Himself, at His return with clouds and glory."

Rev 14:14 is not, and CAN NOT BE The second coming on white horses.

How so? (Without a Scriptural argument, then personal rejection is meaningless. Even if in ALL CAPS.)

Also, without any specific challenge to the Scriptural reasoning I give, then it stands as is uncorrected.

Rev 19 is the second coming, and is NOT , NOR CAN ANY POSTRIBBER MODIFICATIONS make it resemble rev 14:14.

Once again, how so? As a pretribber, I have given the Scriptural argument for it. All you have in response, is ALL CAPS.

 

[ATG]

Psalm1 said:

The second coming of rev 19, on millions of horses, with a warrior Jesus, holding a sword, in his mouth, SECIFICALLY to kill the ac and his army.

This is only partly true. Jesus' principle cause for coming again, is first to bodily resurrect all His saints from the earth, and gather them by His angels unto Himself:

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where He will be at that time, is in the air above the earth. Only afterward, will He then descend with His saints to destroy the armies of the nations, that are gathered against Him at Armageddon and around Judea.

Your focus is only on the Lord coming to destroy people, while His purpose is coming to save His people first.

Luk 9:54
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Is the second coming with no rapture anywhere in Rev 19.

??? There is no second coming, that is with no rapture.

Or, are you saying there is no rapture at His return, because it's not found in Rev 19? If so, first learn what this means:

Isa 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Prophecy of Scripture is made known in parts from all Scripture together. Especially that of the Lord's coming to receive His people, and govern all the earth.

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Demanding the prophecy of the Lord's return be found in Rev 19 alone, is the same laziness that demands His reign on earth be all in Rev 20 alone. Or, demanding that His coming to suffer for our sins and be crucified, must be limited to Is 53.

 

[ATG]

Common conversation here due to the last days we are in now.

Perhaps, but I still say these last days online forums are a blessing on the whole...

 

[ewq1938]

Since what Jesus preached to the captives in paradise is not made known by Scripture, then no one can say what He preached to the captives in paradise, whether preaching the gospel and/or prophecying those things which are to come.
.

No, it says the gospel was preached.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Now, one must understand that the word Hell is used for more than one place. The Hell he went to is known as Hades, the place of the spirits of the physically dead and prison for fallen angels.



He went in order to preach the gospel similar to going into a hostile or bad area to preach the gospel!


The dead were given a chance to hear the Gospel and be judged as if they were alive and heard the Gospel. It was so those who received and accepted it could live according to God in the spirit ie: receive salvation.

 

[Psalm1]

No, it says the gospel was preached.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Now, one must understand that the word Hell is used for more than one place. The Hell he went to is known as Hades, the place of the spirits of the physically dead and prison for fallen angels.



He went in order to preach the gospel similar to going into a hostile or bad area to preach the gospel!


The dead were given a chance to hear the Gospel and be judged as if they were alive and heard the Gospel. It was so those who received and accepted it could live according to God in the spirit ie: receive salvation.

Exactly.
That dynamic, as well as the Jews regathered dynamic, the bride /groom dynamic, and the purpose of the trib , completely escapes the postribber.

All their teachers should be fired for all the omissions.

 

[Psalm1]

I thought I was responding and agreeing with Gideon 300



I don't blast Scriptures. I only show by Scripture to agree or disagree with someone's use or misuse of them.


You began to hint at getting personal in the last post, and now you resort to making personal accusations.

Unfortunately, you take correction too personal. It's the final stage of a failed argument.

When you stick to the argument at hand, then I'll be glad to continue. Otherwise, I'll no longer be responding to your personal issues and attacks.

Unfortunately correction is a waste of time on you.
I let the other guy set the stage for either debate, or going personal.
Going personal for me is ALWAYS PUSHBACK.

Maybe the pushback is too hard on your feelings.

You definately need correction as every challenge I made to you, was answered in a general diversion away from the verses.

Yes you can either "continue", as you put it, and stick to the challenges I made , or continue to bat the air away from the bible.

I can easily debate and defend the pretrib rapture.
Postribbers play games.

Silly and juvenile.

Take any pretrib rapture verse and let's go.
No games, no side shows, no personal silliness.

 

[Psalm1]

I thought I was responding and agreeing with Gideon 300



I don't blast Scriptures. I only show by Scripture to agree or disagree with someone's use or misuse of them.


You began to hint at getting personal in the last post, and now you resort to making personal accusations.

Unfortunately, you take correction too personal. It's the final stage of a failed argument.

When you stick to the argument at hand, then I'll be glad to continue. Otherwise, I'll no longer be responding to your personal issues and attacks.

SMH.

 

[Psalm1]

Psalm1 said:
QUOTE
Nope ALL DIE WHO RECIEVE THE MARK.


Quote by Atg
""You need to clarify your prophecy. Is it all the saints or the enemies of the Lord dying before His return?""

Psalm1 said:
QUOTE
Every man, woman, and child, as the Bible explicitly, vividly, declares.


Quote by atg
"False. Never quoted explicitly nor vividly."

You made several more false statements about the ac not killing those refusing the mark.


I guess investigation is your enemy.



Rev 13
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:



Huh??

You were saying?

 

[Psalm1]

The beginning of Rev 7 is the first resurrection of all Old and New Testaments saints. The whole earth is made still at Christ's coming, and the power of His resurrection is seen, when He changes all His saints to ascend and meet Him in the air.

The Beginning of Rev 14 is all the redeemed and resurrected Israel of God in the air singing their new song of glory from God:

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They are doing so, while the last hour of the Lamb's wrath is upon all the inhabitants of the earth:

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The wholly redeemed and resurrected 144,000 saints of God, will be all the believers of the Old and new Testaments, given by Moses and the Lamb Jesus Christ.

The second half of Rev 7 is all the saints of God from righteous Abel, to the end of the Lord's reign on earth, that are found written in the Lamb's book of life, and will be without number, nor signified by any number, such as 144,000.


Jesus resurrects them from earth, and His angels gather them from heaven, to meet Jesus in the air:

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle…And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Before the Lord's return, as in the days of Noah, the unbelievers shall rejoice in ungodliness, while persecuting the godly.

Rev 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And as the flood was disbelieved and sudden upon all the earth, so shall the coming of the Lord with glory. And as the ark was carried away above the waters of the flood over all the earth, so shall the resurrected saints ascend above the wrath of the Lamb upon the earth.


Great tribulation and wrath upon the godly all over the earth, with great worshipping and rejoicing in the beast.

1Th 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.




See above for Jesus resurrecting His saints unto Himself, at His return with clouds and glory.



The disobedient believers, that name Christ with the lips, will also be caught unawares by His coming. They will be appointed His wrath with the unbelieving evil-doers of the earth.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/48/s_953048
Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Psalm1 said:
Ask them " what is the setting for EVERY RAPTURE VERSE"


Your quote;
"Great tribulation and wrath upon the godly all over the earth, with great worshipping and rejoicing in the beast."

Lol
All rapture verses are normal life, everyday life, and commerce, marriage, and planning for the future.

Acts 1
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
( no trib setting. Peacetime, Normal life and everyday life)
Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Huh? Normal life? And in that normal life "ONE TAKEN, ONE LEFT ON EARTH" ?
Before the flood??? Watch for Jesus before the flood????
Jesus is coming before the flood???

Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Man...don't you hate that Lot is REMOVED AND GATHERED In a normal life and setting?????
And the nerve of that Jesus saying HIS COMING is in a normal life pretrib setting.



The ONLY RAPTURE verse in a trib setting is Rev 14;14.
Which is NOT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH.

See this is what I am talking about.
You do not know your Bible.

Postrib rapture teachers should all be fired.
Massive omissions.
Flat out shameful.

 

[Psalm1]

The beginning of Rev 7 is the first resurrection of all Old and New Testaments saints. The whole earth is made still at Christ's coming, and the power of His resurrection is seen, when He changes all His saints to ascend and meet Him in the air.

The Beginning of Rev 14 is all the redeemed and resurrected Israel of God in the air singing their new song of glory from God:

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They are doing so, while the last hour of the Lamb's wrath is upon all the inhabitants of the earth:

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The wholly redeemed and resurrected 144,000 saints of God, will be all the believers of the Old and new Testaments, given by Moses and the Lamb Jesus Christ.

The second half of Rev 7 is all the saints of God from righteous Abel, to the end of the Lord's reign on earth, that are found written in the Lamb's book of life, and will be without number, nor signified by any number, such as 144,000.


Jesus resurrects them from earth, and His angels gather them from heaven, to meet Jesus in the air:

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle…And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Before the Lord's return, as in the days of Noah, the unbelievers shall rejoice in ungodliness, while persecuting the godly.

Rev 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And as the flood was disbelieved and sudden upon all the earth, so shall the coming of the Lord with glory. And as the ark was carried away above the waters of the flood over all the earth, so shall the resurrected saints ascend above the wrath of the Lamb upon the earth.


Great tribulation and wrath upon the godly all over the earth, with great worshipping and rejoicing in the beast.

1Th 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.




See above for Jesus resurrecting His saints unto Himself, at His return with clouds and glory.



The disobedient believers, that name Christ with the lips, will also be caught unawares by His coming. They will be appointed His wrath with the unbelieving evil-doers of the earth.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/48/s_953048
Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote
""The Beginning of Rev 14 is all the redeemed and resurrected Israel of God in the air singing their new song of glory from God:""

Why in the world do you change that??????
Why?????
It does not say that at all.
Rev14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

It needs No MODIFICATIONS by you doctrine.

THE HOLY SPIRIT knew what he was talking about.

144,000 ethnic Jews AS FIRSTFRUITS in heaven gathered to thevthrone of God.

Why do you change it????

 

[Psalm1]

This is only partly true. Jesus' principle cause for coming again, is first to bodily resurrect all His saints from the earth, and gather them by His angels unto Himself:

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where He will be at that time, is in the air above the earth. Only afterward, will He then descend with His saints to destroy the armies of the nations, that are gathered against Him at Armageddon and around Judea.

Your focus is only on the Lord coming to destroy people, while His purpose is coming to save His people first.

Luk 9:54
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.


??? There is no second coming, that is with no rapture.

Or, are you saying there is no rapture at His return, because it's not found in Rev 19? If so, first learn what this means:

Isa 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Prophecy of Scripture is made known in parts from all Scripture together. Especially that of the Lord's coming to receive His people, and govern all the earth.

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Demanding the prophecy of the Lord's return be found in Rev 19 alone, is the same laziness that demands His reign on earth be all in Rev 20 alone. Or, demanding that His coming to suffer for our sins and be crucified, must be limited to Is 53.

Quote;
""...are you saying there is no rapture at His return, because it's not found in Rev 19? If so, first learn what this means:

Isa 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Prophecy of Scripture is made known in parts from all Scripture together. Especially that of the Lord's coming to receive His people, and govern all the earth.

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."""

I posted there is no rapture in Rev 19 at the second coming.
You failed to show one is there.
Because it is not.

Then you go into character assassination.

All you are doing is trying to win via destroying the messenger.

That is Saul alenskis rules for radical tactics.
Communist tactics.

Since you can't refute the pretrib rapture you go personal.

 

[ATG]

No, it says the gospel was preached.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

No, it only says the preaching was by the Spirit.

1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The gospel isn't preached to the dead in the grave, nor are the they baptized for.

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

For the cause of saving all that repent, the gospel is also preached to them that are dead in trespasses and sins. First to the Jews and also to the Gentiles.

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The gospel is only preached to bring to God, them that repent. Them in the grave have no repentance, but only judgment to come.

Heb{9:27}
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no second chance repentance after death, nor purgatory for cleansing the soul.

Now, one must understand that the word Hell is used for more than one place. The Hell he went to is known as Hades, the place of the spirits of the physically dead and prison for fallen angels.

True to a point. While it's true that hades and gehenna are both translated for hell in the NT, there's only one tormenting gehenna for the fallen angels, and souls of the wicked dead, as you point out. But hades is always the grave of the dead bodies.

He went in order to preach the gospel similar to going into a hostile or bad area to preach the gospel!

This is an unqualified similarity from an unproven interpretation of Scripture.

Scripturally, the gospel is preached to bring the ungodly to God. And there is no repentance from the grave, but only judgment. Therefore, an allowable interpretation of Jesus preaching to the dead in hell, is to prophecy future judgment to the unjust, and future resurrection to the righteous.

The dead were given a chance to hear the Gospel and be judged as if they were alive and heard the Gospel.

Seriously? Resorting to symbolic preaching of the gospel? As if the gospel saves, but not really??

Jesus' death on the cross was not symbolic, for a symbolic gospel. The gospel is bought with a price in Jesus' blood, and is by grace and mercy of God only preached to save men's live, in deed and in truth, not symbolically.

1Co 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

There is no symbolic nor fruitless preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It was so those who received and accepted it could live according to God in the spirit ie: receive salvation.

Heb{9:27}
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: